Sub-races and why We don't need to CMC them

[Thoradin]

So, my buddy @Cerb57 and I made a couple of Amani Berserkers a week or so ago. We've been toying around, RPing and whatnot on these guys and it has been a lot of fun.

Then Cerb talks to someone who says that they were told to make a CMC if they wanted a Forest Troll. Then I asked @Spiky about it, he said something about "the consensus of the GM chat that you had to make a CMC for a Forest Troll."

I don't think anyone needs to wait 4 months for Kretol to get around to make a CMC for a troll they can't customize.

So here is the thing; Orcs and Dwarves don't need to do CMCs for their subraces (Dark Irons & Wildhammers; Dragonmaws, Blackrocks).

So I don't see why we cannot make trolls who just use the normal troll model and just pretend to be the bigger Forest or Ice trolls, or just say we are lankier than our Forest/Ice brethren.

I imagine it should be the same for Taun'ka, should anyone desire to play one of them.


So, what do you guys think? After all, it is all our server.


Edit:

Races you shouldn't have to CMC:


Orc
-Blackrock
-Dragonmaw
-Chaos (The Red skinned ones, many in the Horde, defending the Dark Portal)
-Mag'har

Dwarf
-Dark Iron
-Wildhammer
-Frostborn (?)

Troll
-Forest Troll
-Ice Troll

Tauren
-Taun'ka (?)

[FlyingSquirrel]

If I remember correctly, you do need CMCs to be Mag'har. Anyways, now that that's out of the way;

The difference between the Forest Trolls is that, to their respective factions, the Dark Irons, Dragonmaws, all those that you linked, are (at majority, bar the Blackrock, who I do believe are also CMC's) friendly to their factions. Forest Trolls, bar the single small tribe, are hostile to both factions and also whatever else may exist.

[Thoradin]

Yes, Squirrel, but there are plenty of Forest and Ice Troll Mercenaries.


Also; the only reason Dark Irons, Dragonmaws, Blackrocks, and Maghar would even be CMC's is if you truly want the non customizable models. At least that is what I have always been told.


You have the base model, why not just pretend and state you are [X] subrace?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I've always personally seen it as the races needing to be similar enough. With three of the previous subraces (Dark Iron, Blackrock and Dragonmaw (the latter two possibly not even being considered subraces, just having a different skintone due to the different areas that they live in)) you showed, they only had one difference, that being skin-tone.

Now, I'm going to go back to Mag'har. They, the Orcs that did not go through the Blood Curse, are noticably different than the common Green Orcs, primarily due to the skintone and the fact that Mag'har are much smaller. As such, unlike the Blackrocks, Dark Irons and Dragonmaw, they are a CMC.

To Forest Trolls. Compared to the playable Jungle Trolls, there are two major differences; they have a different skin tone, and they are much, much larger. So, like the Mag'har, they are CMCs.

Then again, this is just my speculation. I'm not going to go and say that I know the GM's reasoning. However, this is always the rule I've gone by.

[Delta]

I had no objections to you and Cerb playing your Amani when they signed up to the Argent Crusade, personally. I think you'd have done better to emote your appearances to make it clear to all, however. Some people don't use add-ons, and they shouldn't have to in order to know what you're playing at a glance. Part of CotH's allure is that you don't need anything but the vanilla game to dive into the action. Describing your character in-RP is common courtesy if they differ vastly from the model's appearance in any shape or form.

Sub-races are kind of a can of worms, and this... cracked it wide open. I would be pleased to see a discussion start up that isn't stifled into silence too quickly, because I think it's something a good number of people have always had an interest in.

Edit: To the best of my knowledge, the orcs of the new Horde and the Mag'har are the same height, roughly. Garrosh certainly isn't smaller, and Aggra seems of a height with most female orcs. Dranosh seems of normal stature in his art, too.

[Thoradin]

Now, I'm going to go back to Mag'har. They, the Orcs that did not go through the Blood Curse, are noticably different than the common Green Orcs, primarily due to the skintone and the fact that Mag'har are much smaller. As such, unlike the Blackrocks, Dark Irons and Dragonmaw, they are a CMC.

To Forest Trolls. Compared to the playable Jungle Trolls, there are two major differences; they have a different skin tone, and they are much, much larger. So, like the Mag'har, they are CMCs.

While the Maghar may be CMC's, one could argue that I am saying they shouldn't have to be either. You could just say you are a Maghar, scale yourself down a tad and bam.

In any case, concerning the Forest/Ice Trolls, at least with skin tone, the Jungle Trolls do have green and blue skin tones. And it shouldn't be out of the question that you could have a smaller and/or lankier Forest/Ice Troll. In fact, we have the .scale command, so we can, in fact, scale up or down a character. A 1.1-5 scale troll would be as tall as any Forest/Ice Troll. The only difference would be the model which, in truth, should not be a problem. I, as @Delta said, RP'd my troll as a big Amani, squatting and even breaking furniture as he sat because of his size.

Again, I shouldn't have to wait 3-7 months on a CMC that wont be customizable or anything like that.

I do agree with Delta. It would be very interesting to have a lengthy discussion about this.

[FlyingSquirrel]

There was a previous suggestion I read on GMI that there be created a second, smaller CMC function, to deal with less questionable things such as subraces, while the main one is kept for things that are considered their own race (Ethereal, High Elves, etc). And that's something I can easily agree with. The CMC system, in it's current manifestation, is... less than it could be. And I do agree, a discussion would be good.

[Maulbane]

I was about to bring up that series of pictures of subraces that came up on MMOchampion during the time all the new updated character models were, but then I realised for the second time that those were just photoshopped and probably aren't gonna be part of WoD ;-;

[Thoradin]

Well, Maul, I know for a fact that there will be some darker skin tones for dwarves, what with some Blizzcon footage that Conan O'Brien took. So, Dark Iron skin tones (at least one) will be in game!

[CappnRob]

I think to some degree we should permit some subraces without CMCs. We already permit Darkirons and Wildhammers because their general appearance can be imitated within the existing character creation restrictions (dark skin, orange hair, etc). Forest trolls I feel should be permissable because we -can- make green trolls. We may not be able to make them the wannabe-orcs that most appear to be, but I feel that's a really negligible detail. A troll's a troll by the end of the day.

Taunka are a little harder to peg, given they have radically different faces, but all-white Tauren exist and the females look the same (if just because of Blizzard's laziness).

Mag'har, though... I feel they have enough difference between them and regular orcs due to how few there are and the brown skin cannot be emulated. Same for chaos orcs, as I'm sure the ones that are in the Horde are an extreme minority. Broken Draenei, too, should require a CMC as well.

[Mathias]

I wouldn't mind allowing some sub-races to be opened, so long as it can be reasonably shown -on the character screen- that you can be that race. Forest trolls? You can get trolls green enough, and you can just be a lanky troll, so that can be possible. Mag'har? Mag'har have a skin that you just cannot get in the orc character screen, so I don't want someone dressing themselves so that no skin is shown and say "I'm a Mag'har". Reminds me of retail. Same with Chaos orcs, which I don't know why you suggested them, since they got more than just red skin going for them.

So, yes, I am for this discussion for opening up reasonable selections. Forest trolls? Sure. Dark Irons and Wildhammer are already allowed, it seems. Chaos and Mag'har? CMC. Frost? Can you get ice skin as a troll? Ice skin as a dwarf? No? CMC.

[Thoradin]

Very good points, Mat and Cappn, (Though Chaos Orcs are not Fel Orcs).

The Blueish white skin tones are present on troll models, so an Ice Troll should make plenty of sense, just like a Forest Troll.

I do agree that Mag'har and Chaos orcs, as well as the Taun'ka are just different enough to warrant CMC. Well, I dunno; I still feel like a Mag'har should be passable, as its not a matter of majority with them.


I would also suggest that Kretol give Reigen and Loxxy the ability to make CMCs, if at least just these ones like Sub-Races.

[Reigen]

Kretol has been messing around with the permissions to allow Loxie and I to do CMCs as a note! It's a matter of when we're given the okay and shown how to do it.

[MstrCorvus]

I'm just going to put in my little point regarding the OP. I think that's actually reasonable and I support that.

*slinks away back to his dimension*

[Grakor456]

Some people don't use add-ons, and they shouldn't have to in order to know what you're playing at a glance. Part of CotH's allure is that you don't need anything but the vanilla game to dive into the action.

This needs to be emphasized, because that's really the crux of the issue.

For better or worse, we are playing on a graphical medium, one that has limitations based on the character creator given to us. One of the main advantages of this, however, is that it is easy to tell at a glance "that is a female green orc" or "that is a male forest troll." When you take that advantage away, we may as well be playing on a MUD...without the MUD's advantages of having easy, innate access to text descriptions for literally everything.

Dark Irons are, to my knowledge, the only particular exception that we made for this, what with their mainstream "acceptance" in dwarf culture following Cataclysm, and their features are closely mimicked enough with the character options available. Forest trolls, on the other hand, have a different model from jungle trolls, so it's more than just getting an approximate skin tone. Mag'har are, similarly, impossible to recreate because the skin tone is very different. For those people without TotalRP or whatever, it's important to be able to tell who and what everyone is at a glance, since it can have a profound impact on RP. Mag'har, for example, are treated differently in orcish culture.

And yes, Kretol is intending on giving the power to CMC to Loxy and Reigen (I technically had the power as well, but I never bothered using it.) While discussion is fine, it's my opinion that it's probably best to wait for that and gauge how much that helps before doing anything too brash.