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Cataclysm Gameplay and Troubles
#31
ulteo29 Wrote:Gnome Priests: I guess it makes sense, since they've been living in Human/Dwarf society for so long now (probably 10 years or so by Cataclysm?)

Just about, but they've been widely interacting with them for over 200, and some have interacted with humans and elves as much as 800 years ago. Over the span of 800 years it's not hard to believe Gnomes have slowly started accepting it.
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#32
Why yes, I certainly did like that idea. X3

As for the phasing thing...

Please, oh great ArcEmu, do not do such a thing to us. We have done nothing to anger you... too much. We are crazy, but we can change! If we have to. I guess...
The word of the day is "Legs". Now go forth and spread the word!
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#33
Mikain Wrote:
ulteo29 Wrote:Gnome Priests: I guess it makes sense, since they've been living in Human/Dwarf society for so long now (probably 10 years or so by Cataclysm?)

Just about, but they've been widely interacting with them for over 200, and some have interacted with humans and elves as much as 800 years ago. Over the span of 800 years it's not hard to believe Gnomes have slowly started accepting it.
True, but now that they don't have their own city I would assume that they're getting better at assimilating with the fellow southern Eastern Kingdoms Alliance races. I agree that Gnome Priests are definitely believable.
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#34
Sol Wrote:I'm not sure why everyone is so adverse to Taurens being paladins and priests. It's already been explained as a form of An'she worship, which isn't that bad a cop-out excuse in my opinion.

Pardon my jumping in, but, I gotta. So, I gotta. I'll toss you a newspaper you can roll up and smack me on the nose, if it's appropriate.

Before I launch into my spiel, let's get some cultural things out of the way. This is my interpretation, YMMV, and differences of opinion will occur. Offer not valid in Florida, Massachusetts, or The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.
Tauren society is, as a whole, very spiritual. This is an important detail. It's not just Shamans and Druids - it's Hunters, it's Warriors, it's everyone. It's customary to properly honor any life taken, especially in the hunt. How that's done is going to vary by tribe and by person. Remember, Tauren are socially very fragmented. However, the Earth Mother and the Hunt are two of the core commonalities. Even the Grimtotem follow these two core tenets; honor the Earth Mother, and honor the Hunt.

All of that said, let's get down to the matter at hand - Paladins and Priests.
Priests, make sense. Why? Within Tauren society, there is ... well, I'm having trouble expressing it. I think the simpler way to say it is that Healers are highly respected, if not revered. Healers protect life, and the sanctity of life. Additionally, the tending to of wounds is not strictly the realm of the Shaman (though they may specialize in such, see Resto tree.) That also extends to animals - Druids are not the only ones who tend to Kodos. There is always a place at the fire for those who tend to the needs of others.
Yes, this is absolutely a very, very narrow view of Priests as healers. Bear in mind, I'm not that familiar with the class. But it is not at all unreasonable, unfathomable, or even the least bit strange that there would be Tauren who would seek the Earth Mother's aid in manners more akin to a Priest or Priestess than a Shaman or Druid. (But there also would be shared components to the overall thing, yes.)
As far as Shadow priests go, I honestly don't know. If I were asked to take a wild stab at making it fit, I would most likely lean toward Grimtotem using the stuff of the Nightmare. Possibly viewed as a half-way point between now and the potential of Warlocks, as with their Forsaken allies. Or one could toss it out as "the Forsaken taught us, okay?!" (Use the voice of that kid from the old anti-drug ads. It's funnier that way.)

So okay. We get my opinion on how Priests fit into lore, and I'm all "yay Tauren Priests!" I honestly am. It's something that I've felt has been lacking since I started playing.

Tauren Paladins? Now we get to why I really had to reply. If you were to say they rubbed me the wrong way, I would probably hand you a giant trophy for the understatement of the year award.
In the culture of Azeroth as a whole, adventuring Paladins do two things. They heal people with the blessing of the Light, and they smite the crap out of them with the Light.
See that part about smiting? Yeah. That does. Not. Work. Tauren do not just honor the hunt; they revere all life. Taking a life is a very serious matter, at all times, no matter what. (It's my opinion that the Scourge aren't considered to be living. That's another discussion for another time and place.) The idea of using the Earth Mother's power to end a life is not just frowned upon, it's utterly abhorrent. Things like that get Elders on your back, possibly literally, because as far as everyone is concerned (excepting maybe Grimtotem,) it's more wrong than wrong. That's the sort of thing that reaches hosting parties in the Nightmare levels of wrong.

Bear with me as I veer just a touch here, so I can clarify my views on things. In my view, no class available at this time actually deals with the Earth Mother directly. Shamans deal with elements, spirits and ancestors. Druids deal with the Earth Mother, but like Shaman, deal primarily with elements and spirits. Nobody draws directly from the Earth Mother herself.

Paladins look at that, then start tap dancing on it. Yes, 900 pound bull in full plate armor tap dancing on a shared ethic. It's not a pretty sight. Even striking down foes that aren't, well, anything but undead and claiming to do so in the name of the Earth Mother? We just upgraded that bull to an entire tap dancing troupe. Tauren don't kill in the name of the Earth Mother; just invoking her is a very, very big deal. In their view, there are almost no circumstances where She Herself would demand a life be ended. Even in the pursuit of justice, it's the proverbial line in the sand. (Yes, yes, Grimtotem. I view Grimtotem as culturally distinct in many ways. Another discussion entirely, there.)
Not only that, Paladins culturally are considered "holy people." They speak for whatever so and so worships. For that to be true, you'd have to have a cultural shift of epic magnitude occurring in an impossibly compressed timespan and contradicting thousands of years. In more succint terms; it basically tries to say that Shamans don't exist or matter. Shamans are not just "hey, light my pipe with that fire trick" and "ask my dead mom if she likes my mane." Though you've got to admit the fire trick is handy. Again, culture thing - Shamans are the holy people among the Tauren. While the Earth Mother is the overarching key element, it's more appropriate to commune with the nearer spirits which directly affect daily life; to please these spirits is to please the Earth Mother and honor one's ancestors.

Boy, long and convoluted, isn't it? Sorry. Bear with me just a bit more though, please. And remember, this is just my opinion. There will be differences of opinion. I'm just sharing my views.

So jeez, we just covered a ton of territory on Tauren culture there, didn't we? We only covered Paladins claiming to be channeling and/or acting on behalf of the Earth Mother. But still, there's visible ways to work Paladins in isn't there? In my opinion, there really isn't. The idea of a Tauren converting to the Light is something akin to an Orc looking in the mirror and going "I hate green." You're going against thousands of years of widely common cultural elements. There are two distinct paths I see for it; Tauren asserting that the Light is the Earth Mother, ooooor Tauren being completely ostracized at best. Would you want to hang out with someone who basically took what you've been taught your whole life, and spit on it?
The other idea is that instead of the Earth Mother, they're working with the spirits and the ancestors. In which event, I propose we slap Shaman stickers over every inch of their plate, because that's what they are. Shamans with swords and plate. It's not totally unreasonable, but again, it would signify and require a very substantial cultural shift. Shamans, with the exception of the feared Battle Shaman, are not generally in the "smashing faces" business. Shaman are in the "protecting our people" business. Does that require smashing faces? Sometimes. But it's a last resort, not a first action. To elaborate further; Shamans serve a great many functions - diplomats, teachers, psychiatrists, etcetera - and those sorts of actions take priority over going out and just melting faces when something threatens.
Basically, Paladins as they are? Just. Don't. Fit.

It was pointed out to me that "hey what about Warriors and Hunters?" Good point - what about them, in this specific context? Well, simply put, killing is their job. There's a completely different and distinct set of expectations for them. That doesn't mean they aren't spiritual the same as the rest, though in their own ways; simply that they're not looked to for any sort of spiritual leadership.

But, as I keep saying and repeating, these are just my views and opinions. Other people will certainly have differing opinions, and that's cool. I'm just very much a Tauren person, so figured I should get it out there.
"Two hooves good, no hooves bad." -me
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#35
Imalamuya Wrote:<insert Imalamuya's argument here>

I did read through your whole argument, just felt that this would save more space, heh.

I agree with you perfectly, but who says Tauren are going to be smiting the living? It wouldn't be much difference between a Tauren Pally killing someone and a Tauren Warrior killing someone. I'd have thought any Tauren Paladin (or Sunwalker as it were) would devote themselves for getting rid of things like the Undead, simple reason being they're an abomination of life.

Just my two pennies. ;)
"I am more afraid of one hundred sheep led by a lion than one hundred lions led by a sheep."
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#36
It all comes down to how you play the character. Like you said, Paladins HEAL AND smite. Granted, having Priests takes care of the healing part by some, it is possible to have a healer who wears plate armor as well. Also, remember that they are not directly drawing their power from the Earthmother, but from An'she the Sun god person, who is basically the opposite of Elune.

And to repeat what Hawk said, the Tauren Paladins will probably not be taking life. They will most likely just be killing Scourge (And Forsaken here on CotH). As for Shadow Priests, I really don't know how that's going to make sense.
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#37
ulteo29 Wrote:As for Shadow Priests, I really don't know how that's going to make sense.
Meh, shadow priest don't make much sense in any of the other races either. Sans Trolls and Forsaken, they are straight up said to have them.
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#38
Hawk Wrote:
Imalamuya Wrote:<insert Imalamuya's argument here>

I did read through your whole argument, just felt that this would save more space, heh.

I agree with you perfectly, but who says Tauren are going to be smiting the living? It wouldn't be much difference between a Tauren Pally killing someone and a Tauren Warrior killing someone. I'd have thought any Tauren Paladin (or Sunwalker as it were) would devote themselves for getting rid of things like the Undead, simple reason being they're an abomination of life.

Just my two pennies. ;)

I'm not the greatest at explaining concisely (obviously) or clearly (sometimes.) My point is that regardless of how they use it, to even claim to wield the Earth Mother's power directly is, best case, going to have everyone looking at you like you just sprouted another pair of arms and four heads. The very notion of Paladins itself would be, in my opinion, greatly offensive to all Tauren at the minimum and very likely the kind of offense that gets one exiled. There's a difference between doing the work of the Earth Mother, and using the power of the Earth Mother.

Hopefully that makes at least part of it a little clearer. :)
"Two hooves good, no hooves bad." -me
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#39
Quote:to even claim to wield the Earth Mother's power directly
It's not. It's their new Sun god person thingy named An'she. Basically the opposite of Elune.
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#40
ulteo29 Wrote:
Quote:to even claim to wield the Earth Mother's power directly
It's not. It's their new Sun god person thingy named An'she. Basically the opposite of Elune.

Um, An'she is anything but new. Trying to change An'she culturally would be something I would honestly rate and consider as absolutely impossible.
An'she and Mu'sha are the Earth Mother's left and right eyes, set to circling the world of Azeroth. There's a nice little note about it over here. Basically, as far as Tauren are concerned, An'she and Mu'sha are barely removed from the Earth Mother at all, despite acknowledging their independence from Her. Even taking that into consideration, the Druids don't claim to draw their power from Mu'sha - they draw from the spirits and elements.

I mean, in the end, it all works out the same - Paladins as they are either effectively ignore thousands of years of culture and teachings, or they're Shamans in plate, in my view. It would require a very large (and unlikely) fundamental shift in Paladins - on the level of changing the very definition of the word - rather than the even less likely shifts in Tauren culture for them to work.
"Two hooves good, no hooves bad." -me
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#41
Imalamuya Wrote:It would require a very large (and unlikely) fundamental shift in Paladins - on the level of changing the very definition of the word - rather than the even less likely shifts in Tauren culture for them to work.

Like I said earlier, if the class was given a new name it wouldn't hit the same resistance. In the Tauren case it seems it -is- fundamentally different, since unlike when Belves got Paladins, they don't use the same light. Try looking at it as if it were a whole new class, that just happens to share a name for mechanics.

The same thing happens with priests. They all share a name and mechanics, but are different for each race that has them. Save for maybe Humans/dwarves.
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#42
Alright, I think everyone is forgetting something extremely important when it comes to this expansion...

The World has been blown up, basically. Deathwing, the bane of all life, who can shape the Earth itself with the powers given to him as an Aspect by the titans, and who was driven insane by the Old Gods, has returned.

The theme isn't the same "I must kill the Legion/Scourge for peace and then everything will be okay". It's more "Holy shit wtf just happened to our world? My home is destroyed, resources are diminished, how the hell am I going to live? I need to survive."

Survival. Races are embracing different ways in order to go on living. Meaning, all races will be more desperate and do more to get what they need. No one will be able to go on "Awww, just hug the trees and worship the Light, and everything will be okay!" There are serious problems that WILL kill people, and threaten the existence, that can't be fought as easily as material enemies. That force is the will of each individual race and faction to survive, and to do anything to do so.


That is why I don't believe that there is really any bad lore when it comes to this expansion with the class changes. They do make sense.
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#43
Timetokill is right. I did make this thread as a discussion for all aspects of the expansion. Classes can be argued a lot, but it would be nice for people to put their opinions in on the world changes, as well.

*Shudder* I just realized... there are going to be groups of forty people thinking they can kill Deathwing. With the new gear and levels coming out, we might have people soloing the lvl 60 raid bosses, too... Ego boost?

SMALLER UPDATE: About the world changes. I forgot to add info about certain other areas.

EDIT: UPDATE: Also added super-quick summaries to the slightly more debated race/class combos. Nothing there is set in stone, however.
The word of the day is "Legs". Now go forth and spread the word!
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#44
Troll Druids: I like this. But their forms should be all reptilian! Bear? Raptor! Cat? Snake! Flight? PTERODACTYL.
Human Hunters: Makes sense, hur
Gnome Priests: Oh god...
Tauren Paladins: At least they made up somewhat fitting lore for them.
Dwarf Mages: Makes sense.
Night Elf Mages: FFFFUUUUUUUUUUU-
Orc Mages: What? No.
Dwarf Shamans: YES.
Blood Elf Warriors: I hate Belfs in general >:|
Undead Hunters: I dunno. Can Forsaken make animals their pets?
Tauren Priests: ...Eh.
Worgen can be anything but Paladins and Shamans: If they're somewhat Human.. I guess this makes sense.
Goblins can be anything but Paladins and Druids: GOBLIN SHAMAN DERPA HUR
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Crunchym8: WE'RE PLANTING THE MUMS AND THE DAYLILLIES TOMORROW AND IF WE HAVE TIME SNAPDRAGONS
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#45
Someone once said that Troll Druids make less sense that Orc druids...

But Orcs tried to/did kill Cenarius. They kinda boned any chance in hellfire of becoming druids.
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