The Forsaken and the Light

[Anski]

Grak and I got into a civil argument over the ability of the Forsaken to use 'Holy.' Now I say Holy instead of Light because what Grakor was saying was that, shown by other races and mixed up lore from Post WCIII, Holy =/= the Light, and that Forsaken, which are namely 'forsaken' from the Light are unable to use it. But Holy is a different matter, such as the Tauren worshipping the Sun, Night Elves with Elune and Trolls with their wacky Loa's, what is stopping Forsaken from speccing into Holy, without flesh and bone melting damages from the power? He brought up a bit of psyonic power that I wasn't able to decipher a bit, and i'd be greatly appreciative if he posted in here stating point of view.

[Grakor456]

Really, this is the same sort of argument you'd get in when talking about things like Draenei Shadow Priests. The argument is essentially the same.

There's nothing I've seen, neither in-game nor any books I've read, that suggests that Forsaken can't use healing or holy magic. This is, in fact, not even disallowed in the pen and paper game (though Forsaken are not healed by healing magic in pen and paper, but they work on different mechanics. An undead priest in P&P can still use such magic though.) What this really boils down to is the fact that Holy does not equal faith in the Holy Light, and Shadow does not equal faith in the Forgotten Shadow. The two are unrelated to one another. That must obviously be the case, as we see Troll and Nelf Priests as well, of all types.

The other thing to consider is that people seem to be under this impression that Holy and Shadow are somehow mutually exclusive, and if you take up one you *have* to completely abandon the other...which is also a mindset I've never seen supported in any location. This about makes as much sense as a Mage not just swearing off all Frost spells just because he uses its opposite, Fire, but also *being prevented from even learning them.* This also never happens in Pen and Paper near as I can tell, certainly not in the core book.

Now, yes, Forsaken cannot draw upon the power of the Holy Light. But again, that doesn't mean they can't spec Holy on their Priests.

Oh, as far as the psionic stuff goes...

Priests at one point were rather heavily implied to be more psionic than actually magical. They drew their power not from the object of their worship, but from their inner selves. The mental abilities of Shadow and the Discipline tree in general were parts of that. It also reflected itself in certain bits of lore...for example, the Light is not an object to worship, it's not a religion...it is, instead, a philosophy, a way of thinking and a way to discipline oneself. Blizzard may have done a back-pedal on that at some point, because they retcon their own lore all the time, but that's how it was for a while before.

[Hawk]

I think it's also a case of whether Forsaken would use Holy energies in the first place. I really don't know much about this... particular topic, to simplify it, but I'll try to chip in.

As far as I know, the only priests Forsaken have are shadow priests, because they're in The Forgotten Shadow. I suppose the Forsaken COULD use Holy energies, but where would they get it from? And who would they believe in? As you mentioned, Night Elves have Elune, Trolls have the Loa, etc etc, but I can't think of what the Forsaken would believe in to get Holy energies. Like you said, Forsaken can't really use the Light without being harmed.

[Nostra]

I used to think that the light/holy would simply burn and damage any Forsaken/undead that tried to wield it, I don't remember exactly why but it was related to the fact that they got damaged by holy spells in WCIII. In WoW however, everyone gets damaged by it, so that's not really a valid point any more, now I think the fact that Forsaken can't use holy is more due to their mentality, they, or most of them, believe that when turned undead they were forsaken by the light, and I remember that someone said that to be able to use their priestly powers a priest needs to have faith. Looking at the forsaken I'd say that most of them don't have that faith, even among those that wish to redeem themselves, like that Forsaken who joined the Argent Dawn- Benjamin the Pious or some such- they seems to still view themself as affronts to the light, that it wouldn't let them channel it. Thus they can't.

[Grakor456]

But again, nothing says that a Forsaken *can't* spec Holy, at least nothing I've seen. And even if it did, chances are it's referring to PnP in a way that isn't relevant to WoW at all.

[Hinbane]

In terms of in-game mechanics, I think Blizzard simply allows Forsaken Priests to spec Holy for the sake of balanced game play.

Maybe this is my own little existentialist sentiment but - ...

I feel that if Blizzard were to override in-game mechanics with lore, then Forsaken would still be considered Undead instead of Humanoid, like they were when WoW was first released.

Just to throw my two-cents into this topic: I always assumed what Nostra thought.

[Grakor456]

But that logic doesn't make sense either. At least, in as far as assuming because Holy hurts undead, they can't use it. That's sort of like saying Humans can't use Shadow, because that hurts them.

[Shivali]

I think that the reason that forsaken can not use holy and/or light healing magic is because, as Grakor said and the countless arguements I've had about priestly magic have decided upon, the priests draw their magic from themselves or their beleifs. So if they themselves are corrupted and nasty, like the forsaken, or their beleifs are all corrupted and revolve around nasty values, like the FS, then the magic that they draw from themselves or their beleifs will be nasty and corrupted as well. (IE: shadow words of pain and death.) As opposed to the light priests whose beleifs are based around peace and kindness, making their powers centered around peace and kindness. (IE: healing.)

Edited for spelling... Damn iPod touch keyboard....

[MrBubbles]

I know I'm supposed to be out on a hiatus right now, but I just had to sneak back in for a second. Anyways, I found this from WoWWiki:

Before the time of the Scourge, many of those that would become Forsaken were devout priests of the Light. It would seem, however, that the Light has turned its back on the Forsaken, and they are unable to channel it. In this, the truth of their name becomes apparent.

This article or section contains lore taken from Warcraft novels or short stories.

The figure wore the robes of a priest of the Holy Light - not uncommon among the Forsaken, who mocked the order by wearing their garments and allowing the sacred robes to be soiled and tainted by their bloody work. Somehow, Andarin sensed, this figure was different; the robes seemed to be in almost tolerable condition, even if the body wearing them was not. "You wear the robes of a priest, Trevor. Why do you not channel the Light in battle, if you seek redemption?" The priest seemed to wince at that. "While I refuse to wield the shadow, the Light has refused me, or so it seems. And so, I am truly a broken man; I learned to wield spears of Light like Uther's knights did in the Second. Without the Light, I am unarmed and unarmored -- but not entirely helpless, as you see." Andarin couldn't help but feel a little sorry for the fallen priest, if his story was true. Perhaps a man, no matter how virtuous, could not channel holy power while in such a form."

Although most of the race is evil, the Forsaken cannot be thought of in purely dualistic terms entirely. Although undead, the Forsaken are still inherently human, the majority of whom were victims of the plague spread by Kel'Thuzad. Thus some of the Forsaken are still good beings, if no longer living. As the above suggests, some individuals among them are capable of a tragic form of nobility, in that they do not allow their inability to obtain redemption to prevent them from trying.

Those that try often leave the Forsaken, seeing its flaws, and join other causes. These Forsaken rebel against their race, seeking a better way to end the Lich King's reign or search for a way to reclaim their lost humanity, while others work to reform it from within, such as Roberick Dartfall.

Leonid Barthalomew the Revered of the Argent Dawn is probably the greatest example of this. (Trevor in fact aspires to leave and join Leonid.) Others that have left include Kegan Darkmar.

It is arguable that such nobility is the only truly genuine form that exists, in that it comes not from duty, religion, or custom, but from a decision born purely of free will.

Edit: Taken from http://www.wowpedia.org/Forsaken
Take it as you will.

[Hinbane]

That's a nice excerpt there Mr. Bubbles, but I think the thing that Grakor and Anski were having difficulty with is the distinction between other concepts.

But that logic doesn't make sense either. At least, in as far as assuming because Holy hurts undead, they can't use it. That's sort of like saying Humans can't use Shadow, because that hurts them.

Like what Shivali said, the Priest's powers reflect their inner values and "faith".

Humans are capable of just as nasty values as Forsaken are.
Forsaken are apparently more inclined to more nasty values than Humans are. ( This is likely because of the affect the Lich King has had on them, regardless of how they pursue righteous intent. )

Nonetheless - I don't see this as a make-or-break issue, so I think it's sort of open to interpretation.

[Grakor456]

Yes, it's a nice excerpt. But again, several problems exist with it.

1. The excerpt itself casts doubt as to whether the Forsaken is telling the truth or not.

2. They are talking about religions, not specs. There's no reason to conclude that a Forsaken who follows the Forgotten Shadow can't specialize in healing, even if that comes out differently than how it does for a Human, whose powers differ to a Nelf's. (This is probably why Priests originally had race-specific spells.)

3. It's an excerpt from a source I can't identify. Generally speaking, what happens in-game trumps lore found in novels or the d20 books.

[Kaghuros]

It's a flavor short story from one of the d20 books as far as I know.

Anyway, I feel specs have almost nothing to do with RP. It's an OOC class distinction that works on an OOC level and disregards IC factors. Do you feel a Draenei Shadow Priest should exist in character? I don't, but I can't quite help any of that really. Blizzard set up the game not so we could do our thing but so raiders and PvPers could have the specs they needed to level and do endgame content.

[Grakor456]

Anyway, I feel specs have almost nothing to do with RP. It's an OOC class distinction that works on an OOC level and disregards IC factors. Do you feel a Draenei Shadow Priest should exist in character?

Yes, I do, provided someone has a good story as to why their character is the way he/she is. There's no reason Draenei can't spec Shadow. Heaven knows all you have to do is go through their newbie quests to learn that they all aren't exactly saints.

Also, another quote from WoW-Wiki, on the Priest page:

Forsaken who once followed the tenets of the Holy Light often alter their philosophy upon their transformation. Forsaken have abandoned religion, just as they believe it abandoned them. Lost and hurt, these priests founded a new religion based on a self-centered version of their former faith. Dubbed the Forgotten Shadow, this philosophy centers around self-empowerment and a desire to balance life with death. While they can no longer use the Holy Light, and have since learned how to use the Shadow; the priests teach that there must be a balance between Light and Shadow, and members must learn the Light as well, but never forget they were born from the Shadow.

What I'm getting from this: Forsaken can't draw power from the Holy Light. However, the Forgotten Shadow teaches a balance of Light and Shadow, so again there's nothing saying that Forsaken Priests can't use Holy magic. In fact, the opposite, it says pretty clearly they use both.

Now, all this said...

I'm inclined to simply state what I've said before time and again: what happens in the game trumps things in the d20 books or the novels. WoW will always have priority as far as lore goes. If a race/class/spec combination is possible in the game, then it's possible for RP. To say otherwise strikes me as being a bit too anal with the lore.

[waffenbaum]

If a race/class/spec combination is possible in the game, then it's possible for RP

Butting in for a moment, but considering what Cataclysm is going to do to the class system, we might need to rethink a lot of lore to follow that way of thinking, not that I mind. Seeing as we'll have tauren paladins and gnome priests among others. (Neither race having ever been able/willing to channel the light before, if I recall correctly. Worse yet, wouldn't a tauren accepting the Holy Light be inclined to stop believing in the earth mother? Or are the faiths not mutually exclusive?). I agree that if it's ingame, it should be possible to RP if a good enough reason is provided, but some of the things Blizzard has done just seems flat-out illogical from anything but a game-balancing perspective.

[Maulbane]

If a race/class/spec combination is possible in the game, then it's possible for RP

Butting in for a moment, but considering what Cataclysm is going to do to the class system, we might need to rethink a lot of lore to follow that way of thinking, not that I mind. Seeing as we'll have tauren paladins and gnome priests among others. (Neither race having ever been able/willing to channel the light before, if I recall correctly. Worse yet, wouldn't a tauren accepting the Holy Light be inclined to stop believing in the earth mother? Or are the faiths not mutually exclusive?). I agree that if it's ingame, it should be possible to RP if a good enough reason is provided, but some of the things Blizzard has done just seems flat-out illogical from anything but a game-balancing perspective.

Uh, Blizzard has actually made some effort in explaining it. It isn't the holy light the moocows believe in, it's the power of An'she (Or the sun, one of the Earthmother's eyes according to the Tauren).