Conquest of the Horde

...I had Rensin die as a prestige. In the Arena. He was a Gladiator, that died doing the thing his class acceded at. Thing is, he had a fight that went -horribly- wrong, and ended up losing his face and legs. I was presented with a situation, and went with it. He has been my main character for years, however, I was ready to lose him.

It wasn't until recently I "brought him back" thanks to the restart, and again, if he is presented with death, then it's going to be something he faces. He fears it, definitely, as has been brought up multiple times in my IC thread, he's lost his parents, faced it through his friends, and hates the fact that it -can- be permanent.

Edit: Sorry if I sound full of myself. I'd cite other people's characters, however, I don't know many anymore, heh.

(05-22-2012, 12:03 PM)Aadora Wrote: [ -> ]Rhetorical or not combat prowess is still not the #1 important piece to any character unless that is there only reason for being.

And I disagree that having an OP character is bad RP. If it makes sense then it makes sense. And punishing people for that just seems harsh as though you are trying to force people into having normal characters.

I have had people get mad at me before for saying not enough people play average characters, and have been told to just let people play as they wish. So why the sudden change now?

IC there are thousands of "Average" fighters. Thing is not everyone wants to play that kind of character. That's why we are playing WoW and not just some random medieval RP. If everyone on the server played an OP character, that wouldn't mean the world is full of super beings. Because there are far too many people to count that are just average NPCs.

I think we're going by different meanings of the term "Overpowered." I only use it to apply to characters whose power levels are inappropriate, given the situation. In the situations you speak of where "it makes sense," I may consider such a character unusually strong, but not "Overpowered."
"OP" is a term I reserve for when something's gone wrong to the point of a nerf being the only logical course of action, IC and OoC.

And I wasn't intending on attacking your position, I was just clarifying the purpose of my original statement.

I love this argument. I really do because everyone gets so adamant they're right. YOUR RP SUCKS BECAUSE YOU DO THIS!! AND NOT THIS. It's pretty comical but it is legitimate. What we have to realize is that,

1) Although we all take our characters and RP serious to an extent, try not to take it too serious, or not serious enough. There is balance.

For instance.

Sitting in Hyjal because your character is stuck in Ashenvale just say. Kretol had something where he said you should be able to find a reason for your Char to be somewhere for RP's sake to enjoy and -JOIN- the fun. The reason we're here. If your char wont leave make something up or make a new toon. Your char doesn't have a 9 - 5 they don't sleep, poop, have anchors so have fun.

Also take your char a little serious too, If you get stabbed in the arm, punched in the mouth or injured. Reflect it. Just don't walk away because you're salty you lost ( I've done this before lol so not being hypocritical ) or act like your char is the toughest mofo around. I've been there, done that.


Also Respect others RP.

Yes, Talking during fights may be impractical, over the top moves ( that aren't OP and in your chars abilities ) maybe unique or different but if their plausable and doable respect someone's creativity. Also Over the top ridiculous stuff happens in this game all the time. There is a race of walrus people for crying out loud who ride turtles. Like come on?! Pick and chose your battles, for the everyday ( I'm living a regular dude's life digitally, players ) please lighten up. Some of us already live a regular dude's life and would rather do things we can't. Such as ride flying carpets, and fight monsters.

For the fanatics of fantasy, have some grounding to your character. Add fears, aspirations, weaknesses, that will make your story and character so much more open to other things. For example my most Anime'd character is Clearly Jidaeo, but ever since he became a tormentor he's grown more. He's got shiny moves I love, but he's also hideous which bothers him ( due to his pride and elven narcissism ) and weak to light which humbles him to people he used to disreguard. I.E. Annabelle before she died. Also him being a father and husband gives him new weights and things like that. Grounding an "Anime" character into the world you're RPing is fine if you do it right. Although I don't like calling toons 'Anime' but you get the point.

tl;dr. It's all preference all we're doing is arguing over what's better. Red or Blue. The answer is Purple.

There's a difference between a great warrior just having a bad fight, and a supposed to be highly skilled warrior not being to ever get a hit in.

Aluul got a small handful of good hits in throughout the entire Hearthglen event line. It wasn't any ones fault but the fact still remains that this paladin that had fought scourge in Northrend can't even handle a ghoul on her own any more simply because of OOC rolls.

And things like that cause a person to look for something else to bring their character back through because while you can get great character progression from a character losing a battle, you would almost be forced to make up a story to get progression from out of nowhere literally -sucking- at fighting every time you enter combat. Logically your character would start training harder, but that doesn't help because nothing you can do changes your luck with rolling.

(05-22-2012, 12:12 PM)Aadora Wrote: [ -> ]There's a difference between a great warrior just having a bad fight, and a supposed to be highly skilled warrior not being to ever get a hit in.

Aluul got a small handful of good hits in throughout the entire Hearthglen event line. It wasn't any ones fault but the fact still remains that this paladin that had fought scourge in Northrend can't even handle a ghoul on her own any more simply because of OOC rolls.

And things like that cause a person to look for something else to bring their character back through because while you can get great character progression from a character losing a battle, you would almost be forced to make up a story to get progression from out of nowhere literally -sucking- at fighting every time you enter combat. Logically your character would start training harder, but that doesn't help because nothing you can do changes your luck with rolling.

Then just discuss OoCly the possibility of a trust fight or a limit on failures-in-a-row a character can have before the encounter begins?

If pure roll RP doesn't suit you, then take steps to avoid it. If everyone involved is level-headed about it, then there shouldn't be any problem in coming to an agreement that better suits your ideal RP experience.

The only real example of anyone going anime style, and taking it too far that I have honestly ever seen, is in Garubashi two mages went crazy picking themselves up off the ground with tornadoes of sand and were throwing giant boulders at each other.

Other than that I can't say I know what everyone is talking about with people going too far.

It's a fantasy world for a reason.

Rogues are known to use shadow magic to do things no one else can, such as disappearing and reappearing in another location without actually teleporting.

Warriors are known to be able to dual-wield giant blades that no average man can.

Hunters are able to fire from long distances with pinpoint precision from a bow or rifle. They are also able to tame beasts that would kill anyone else.

And there is holy magic, and arcane and all of that.

Things that wouldn't normally happen, happen in WoW. That's all there is to it. And people want to RP those elements of it. Not make an average character who watches everyone else be OP.

I think it's unanimous that, balance wise, rolls are stupid. Honestly? Take it with a grain of salt. I've done roll events where my character doesn't land a hit and loses lots of HP. There's no one that actually takes it against the character ICly. It sucks, I agree. Hell, I'm known as the most military 'against rolls' person in all of existence, but they are necessary sometimes. Imagining DMing a 13 player event with HP, crits, heals, AoEs where everyone gets to decide how well they do and you have to read every emote a couple of times to make sure. Would be absolute mayhem and take hours.

Edit: STOP TYPING SO QUICKLY

...What follows is personal opinion, likes and dislikes. Nowhere near objective, but at least it's honest, and it explains my point of view on the matter.

I enjoy "powerful" characters. Having them, interacting with them, being around them, and around other people who make 'em. I generally don't invest much, emotionally, in characters that cannot take care of themselves, because then if something happens(and it does, since the character cannot take care of themselves), I'd be emotionally hurt. I don't know about you, but I'm not the biggest fan of pain. Pain of the emotional and physical type tends to tell you what you should stay away from - stick a hand in a fire and you'll get burned and know never to stick your hand in a fire ever again - or invest a lot of emotion, hope and love in a person only to see them go bad and become a jerk or something of the sort, and you become jaded and not all that trusting in people of that type.

Now, since on CoTH everyone is just as powerful as everyone else, that means simply that "Powerful" characters openly display that power, whereas "Not so powerful" characters do not. For instance, a "Powerful" Paladin may end up being a champion of the just, a beacon of hope for his friends, being there to support them, fight alongside them, and stand firm in the face of adversity, and it would show. He'd have all the glowing bits associated with it, you'd be able to glance at him and -know- he's a Paladin - it'd just show. He'd become more of an archetype, a force of nature, than a character. Then comes the "Not so powerful" Paladin, that can do everything the other one did, but doesn't display any of the other characteristics. He looks just like every other commoner, and is just out to do the right thing. There's nothing about him that says "I'm a Paladin" nor even that he's a good guy. He's just a random dude on the street that happens to like helping people. But it's not plainly obvious.

Warcraft is a Noblebright world, though. It's High Fantasy. It's not about cowering in the darkness and hoping the bad things don't find you, in my view. Instead, it's about being one of the heroes, standing strong in the face of being outnumbered and outgunned, for some noble cause or higher purpose, or even just plain survival. In Warcraft's Lore, we don't tend to see anyone that's not a peasant cower in fear. We see people fighting, no matter what they face. I think the most obvious example is the Battle of Mount Hyjal - The Legion had entered into the very core of Night Elven territory, were about to kill off the World Tree, and Malfurion gets a crazy-arse plan together that could very well not work.

So, what do they do? They stand and fight. It's all or nothing. Down to the last footman that gave their life willingly. The 'All or nothing' mentality is plainly visible throughout Warcraft - "Lok'tar ogar" becoming a staple of the approach of entire races towards a way of life. So, when you're outnumbered and there's no way out, will you cower in acceptance of your fate? No. You're going to spit Fate in the eye, chuckle darkly and kick some arse or die trying. You're going to fight to your last breath because all that you are, all of the deeds your hands and words have wrought have led to this day, when it is once more "All or nothing".

This is a world of gods and heroes, of mighty clashes and grand battles. I enjoy seeing "powerful" combat. Asplosions, fire, fury, skill with weaponry, and armor that works realistically - and I like having the heroes of the tale exhibit at least some of the effects of combat: There will be injuries, fatigue and being drained, where such is applicable. Yeah, I love it when Big Damn Heroes fight against superior numbers and even insurmountable odds, and even come up on top - but they'll have suffered for it, and paid with their sweat and blood. I like having great things be achievable, but only through time and effort.

In LOTR, the grandpappy of most of the mainstream fantasy nowadays(which Warcraft is a part of), the world faced similar circumstances. But the thing is, while people may have had fear in their hearts at times and doubts, we do not see it on their faces. When Eowyn kills the Witch King, it's not fear she shows, but courage "I AM NO MAN! RAWR!". Despite fighting an obviously supernatural opponent, possessed of greater skill, endurance and strength, she doesn't turn tail and run, instead going "All or nothing" and ramming a sword in his face. Because that's what characters in Heroic High Fantasy do. They stand and fight. And just the way you would expect, she is injured and fatigued afterwards, but she acted heroically, and that's what matters.

At the Wrathgate, despite the Lich King's sword nomming souls in their faise, the soldiers don't turn tail and run, instead fighting heroically. "Can't have the Alliance have all the fun!". And that's what Blizz says Warcraft is. Time and time again, we're shown good prevailing over darkness(Pretty much every big boss), and redemption being offered, even to those who've fallen(See: Restoration of the Sunwell/Sunwell Epilogue). People have stood against the Lord of the Legion, and the Maddened Aspects, and what passes for literal gods. Even if not -personally-, those are the idols of the IC world, that's who people want to emulate. Kids grow up play-swordfighting, and nobody is denying that the Wars take their toll on Azeroth - because they do, and much is lost and hurt during them, but that doesn't make people stop fighting nor run.

True to Space Marine tactics, if a frontal assault doesn't work, you're not assaulting frontally hard enough! All that Warcraft is, is "WE SHALL BAND TOGETHER AGAINST THE COMING DARKNESS!" - be it a mundane threat like bandits, or a great threat, like the Legion, or Old Gods.

To appease my inner Eastern European, read the following with one of those silly Russian-esque accents: Warcraft is like one of your American movies. The hero always wins and gets the girl in the end.

That doesn't mean I endorse Anime-esque fighting in pretty much any way. I enjoy having things make sense, thank you very much. If anything, I'm particular to LOTR-esque things. Only, with way more magic, since it's Warcraft. Oh, and I love Roll-fighting. It makes sense, and it's fair. Kings have been killed by lucky peasants IRL(See: Hastings).

Surprised Rolls are the focus now. Rolls are inapplicable. Roll fighting only matters when you have a certain level of stats and a system. If you don't have your agility, strength, speed, skill and other things factored in than all roll fighting is, is an unbiased way to fight someone without pushing your char's strength and abilities on them. But it's also a fun way to develop things. Like Elil and Reigen are two chars that I've seen win 80+% of the time. So Icly they become semi revered, I think that's fair. and cool to see, because every match they won they had the possibility of losing. Did that mean the two chars were stronger than 80% of the people they fought. No but they were undoubtedly skilled in combat. I dunno really what the point of this thread is, or what its supposed to solve. But balance is key. Epic Chars are ignorant and average chars are well...Average. If you chose to roll a char who can get beat up by a gnoll, don't get mad at someone else's char who is pwning them.

(05-22-2012, 12:23 PM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, and I love Roll-fighting. It makes sense, and it's fair. Kings have been killed by lucky peasants IRL(See: Hastings).

When your Blademaster is killed by a Kobald because "You didn't roll high enough" Then I have to disagree that it makes sense or is fair.

(05-22-2012, 12:23 PM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, and I love Roll-fighting. It makes sense, and it's fair. Kings have been killed by lucky peasants IRL(See: Hastings).

Not all kings are accomplished swordsmen. Many are skilled tacticians, but rather common swordsmen.

Anyways, I've seen way to much crap happen during roll combat, such as before mentioned gnomish perfect papercut victory. Trust is better, but sometimes a bit tricky. I like to combine the two, but that's just me.

(05-22-2012, 12:28 PM)Aadora Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-22-2012, 12:23 PM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, and I love Roll-fighting. It makes sense, and it's fair. Kings have been killed by lucky peasants IRL(See: Hastings).

When your Blademaster is killed by a Kobald because "You didn't roll high enough" Then I have to disagree that it makes sense or is fair.

Kobold, and I've had worse things happen, like fighters with over 10 000 years of experience get beaten without even a single hit delivered by people with barely a couple years worth. I stuck with it. It was -fun-, losing once in a while. I ended up making a point out of it, and made some awesome friends along the way.

I don't feel I should win all the time. Though, the fights where it made sense to do so, I think I did.

...I like Jid's point. I've gotta' say, I agree.

EDIT: Also, Draenei Far Seer ROFLSTOMPED by Rigley's NPC bear. That was awesome too, because it was all in awesomegood fun! /totallynotsecretlyhopingreallyhardformoreNPCfightstotally

(05-22-2012, 12:28 PM)Aadora Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-22-2012, 12:23 PM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, and I love Roll-fighting. It makes sense, and it's fair. Kings have been killed by lucky peasants IRL(See: Hastings).

When your Blademaster is killed by a Kobald because "You didn't roll high enough" Then I have to disagree that it makes sense or is fair.

But this is Roleplay in a virtual environment, not a video game itself. If a kobold rolls 100 and you roll a 1, there's still the option of asking for a reroll OoCly if its bad for the story.
Did you agree in that scenario that your character could be killed in this battle with a single kobold before you began? I don't think anyone here is going to go "No he has to die the rolls said so suck it up and kill him off."

We are in control of the roleplay. We are the writers, not the dice. If the collective participants really can't or don't want to go in-character where the results of random chance take them, then they can change it.

Let me make a better example than all this Blademaster versus farmer stuff.

Looking back to ThePharoah's post.

No, it surely doesn't mean that they are stronger than 80% of the people they fought. It just means they were lucky enough to win each time.

And that is exactly the problem.

There is no skill involved in roll fighting. It doesn't matter if your character is the greatest fighter in the world. The fact of the matter is... roll fighting is basing EVERYTHING off of chance. And then what is the point of even having a Blademaster or anything such as that, when it doesn't matter HOW you fight. It is always 50/50 to win or lose. Nothing about your character can affect your chances of winning a roll fight. And that is my problem with it.

Characters that SHOULD win are ALWAYS 50/50
Characters that SHOULD NOT win are ALWAYS 50/50.
Characters that SOMETIMES win and SOMETIMES lose are ALWAYS 50/50.

What's the point of Combat if there is nothing but chance to decide whether you win or not? At that point we stray away from realism and get back into... a game.

Xigo, did you lose a fight recently to someone with fantastic anime powers? /sarcasm

No matter what a fight system will be flawed. It will be impossible to create accurately simply because there are so many factors to include:

Physics. You have to know force, materials, what's strong, what's weak, and a long equation.

Biology. You'd have to know the systems and how they'd respond to trauma as well as the work/force the bone and muscle structures bring about.

I think the solution to his may be simple.
WE ALL BECOME BIOLOGISTS AND PHYSICISTS AND PRODUCE EQUATIONS TO SEE THE OUTCOME OF WHAT MOVES DO AND DON'T WORK AND HOW MANY INJURIES IT TAKES TO SLAY THE OPPONENT.

We will start by genetically engineering a gnome and pit it against a Tauren, and then we will...