Just how "dead" are DKs?

[Secrettom]

I have an old strategy guide for the WC2 games, and it has a small section on Death Knights...

Death Knight: These soldier of darkness where created by Gul'Dan to replace the slaughtered warlock clans. Assembled from the corpses of the Knights of Azeroth in the first war, these abominations where then animated with the ethereal essence of the Shadow Council. Further empowered with magical energies culled from the slain Necrolytes, the Death Knights wield a terrifying arsenal of spells.

The book is from 1999, if anyone is curious.

[Welden]

Yea, that's talking about the first generation of Death Knights. We are now dealing with DK 2.0 so we'd refer to the Dark Factions RPG Book which talks about "modern" Death Knights.

[Sol]

More accurately, we're dealing with generation 3.0 - as in, Acherus DKs. These are the ones that were raised by the Scourge for the purpose of serving as expendable shock troopers. Yes, raised, as Undead. It's all there in the starting quests, I believe, and Arthas himself admits you were all expendable at Light's Hope, which carries implications that they're a lot weaker than, say, generation 2 (Rivendare and Razuvious will kick your asses, I mean). Regardless, I think they're fully undead, but they've got enough necromantic energy inside them to make them tougher than, say, a Forsaken, and also to stave off rot.

[Grakor456]

More accurately, we're dealing with generation 3.0 - as in, Acherus DKs. These are the ones that were raised by the Scourge for the purpose of serving as expendable shock troopers. Yes, raised, as Undead. It's all there in the starting quests, I believe, and Arthas himself admits you were all expendable at Light's Hope, which carries implications that they're a lot weaker than, say, generation 2 (Rivendare and Razuvious will kick your asses, I mean). Regardless, I think they're fully undead, but they've got enough necromantic energy inside them to make them tougher than, say, a Forsaken, and also to stave off rot.

Sol, please stop posting and saying things in-game as fact unless you can back them up with evidence. It's seriously aggravating and we don't need this sort of attitude in a discussion like this.

I've played the DK quests. Yes, they are mass-produced and the LK considers them expendable. That doesn't mean, however, that they're all completely undead.

[Drumgar]

Well, the way it goes in my mind sorta, a death knight, was living once, of course, but by means of necromantic magic, they enter a state of undeath, similar to that of a Lich. A powerful undeath that is immortal(meaning can't be poisoned, diseased, old age, rot etc.) Only meaning they have to be killed to die(duh). Either way, the reason in my mind, is more powerful necromancy, seeing as how Liches were also made by Ner'zhul, along with Death Knights, him being the figure head on all those delicious dark magics. While say, forsaken, or ghouls, are raised by the plague, and by weaker necromagic, from necromancers or death knights. It also goes with my point that I find it unlikely for the Ebon Blade to make new Death Knights if they wanted to, just because they lack the necromantic skill, in liches, or necromancers. In my mind, death knights and Liches are the offspring of the Lich King, solely because he has the vast amount of power to create such horrifying beings. And so, back on the subject, I find that death knights, are dead, but it's a higher state of undeath then undead minions.(Ghouls, Forsaken, Giests, Abominations.) Where the magic holding them together is strong enough to last, indefinitely, but still being undead, they do not need to eat, or breath, or sleep, just because what would be the point if you couldn't die of old age? No point in keeping up bodily functions if they're already being sustained beyond normal with magic. Anywho, I'm no expert, it just makes sense in my mind.

Added: I also believe that the breathing thing, and Lich Borne, for Forsaken, but no death knights is more or less for the sake of balancing ingame, I doubt Blizz wanted to beef up Death Knights then they already were so other players could QQ about their OPness. On the subject, Forsaken's "True undead" state is also temporary for balance's sake.

I've ended up repeating myself enough, so I'll shush now.

[Sol]

Sol, please stop posting and saying things in-game as fact unless you can back them up with evidence. It's seriously aggravating and we don't need this sort of attitude in a discussion like this.

I've played the DK quests. Yes, they are mass-produced and the LK considers them expendable. That doesn't mean, however, that they're all completely undead.

Sorry for trying to contribute to a discussion at ridiculous hours in the morning, then. /salute

Well, let's see. I for one got the impression they were all deaders from the fact that you see new initiates being picked by Razuvious, who are apparently wearing bloody, tattered rags and are either executed on the spot or allowed to become Death Knights on account of whether they remember their previous lives and whatnot. Again, that's just the impression I got. I'll try not to be so imposing of my ideas in the future. >>

[Grakor456]

It's fine. I don't mind opposing views, I just don't think we need to go into absolutes without some sort of proof for it. I was detecting a hostile/elitist tone there that may not have been intended, so I'll apologize.

On the topic, though...

The problem I have with the assertion of "Third Gen DKs are dissimilar from Second" is that we don't really have any proof that mechanically they're different. Yes, they're less powerful, but functionally they're nearly identical, having very similar spells, both looking the same, both using runeblades, etc. First gen were very different from second, but that could be attributed to the fact that those were both in the RTS games, and Blizzard wasn't aiming for lore consistency between those games. As 3rd and 2nd gen DKs are so very similar, I'd say this is a difference more in power, not actual functionality.

And, even if we accept that they died prior to their change, nothing says they remained dead-dead after the ritual that turned them into DKs. Like a partial resurrection or something.

[Zason]

The Dark Factions excerpt would allow the player to decide. It would back up CotH's approach nicely, IMO.

Death Knights are undeath or living. Either way their soul is taken by the Lich King or at the very least, the "freed" Death Knights are corrupted. They are no longer "good"

"Z"

[Welden]

1st Generation: Death Knights of the Old Horde

• A first generation death knight was essentially the soul, knowledge, memory, and personality of an orc warlock that was imbued into the reanimated corpse of a fallen knight of Azeroth. Unlike modern death knights of the Scourge, these ghoulish fiends were not battle hardened warriors; they were insidious necromancers who possessed superior intellect and tremendous magical power. They often favored the use of terror tactics and reanimated the corpses of enemy soldiers who fell in battle to serve them as mindless undead minions. These skeletal soldiers served to shield the death knight from enemy attacks, allowing them to unleash their deadly eldritch sorcery from range.

2nd Generation: Death Knights of the Scourge

• A second generation death knight were amongst a group of fallen paladins whose souls were twisted and bound to the will of the Frozen Throne [2]. Unlike death knights of the Old Horde, modern death knights are not limited to their use of ranged spell casting abilities. These former paladins are exceptionally skilled in the arts of physical combat. They retained the ability to cast death coil, increase allied movement, as well as raise the dead. They also gained the capacity to cast Death Pact to destroy a minion in return for health. In terms of relative strengths, modern Death Knights are more versatile than their first generation predecessors due to their ability to effectively engage enemies in the physical rigors of close quarters combat. However, both generations are equally destructive and terrifying to engage in the field of battle.

The will to fight against all odds

• The third generation of Death Knights were part of a collaborated effort on the part of the Lich King to bolster Acherus: The Ebon Hold's legions before marching on New Avalon. However, these Death Knights only constituted a portion of the Death Knights under the Lich King's command. Knights of the Ebon Blade had the unique opportunity to assist in the culling of the Scarlet Crusade from the Plaguelands.
  
  In Wrath of the Lich King expansion the death knights are freed from the will of the Lich King and ally themselves with their respective, former factions. Working closely under the guiding blade of Highlord Darion Mograine and the bolstered Argent Crusade, these freed death knights have begun their march to Northrend.
  
  Death Knights in Wrath of the Lich King are a new class mirroring their previous incarnations. While boasting powerful melee abilities, as well as plate armor, these warriors supplement their strength with dark magic. Calling upon a rune system of magic, the death knight may summon unholy, blood, and frost spells.

According to the information above, supplied by WoWwiki, the only difference in the Death Knights of Archerus and the Fallen Paladin Death Knights of the Second Generation is that the Third Generation Death Knights use Dark Magic to bolster their physical strength. It does not mention the second generation ever being able to do so.

Dark Magic:

While boasting powerful melee abilities, as well as plate armor, these warriors supplement their strength with dark magic.

No Dark Magic:

These former paladins are exceptionally skilled in the arts of physical combat. They retained the ability to cast death coil, increase allied movement, as well as raise the dead. They also gained the capacity to cast Death Pact to destroy a minion in return for health.

The only not clearly stated part of this whole thing is when did the Third Generation begin, and the Second Generation end? But that is not completely relative to this discussion.

This information actually makes the Third Generation DKs seem more powerful then the Second Generation DKs, however, the only reason that the Second Generation current is more powerful could be that they have simply had a longer period of time to advance their own abilities. I think, in time, the Third Generation will surpass their predecessors.

[Maulbane]

Well it's a fairly defined line, that is, if you're accustomed to them.

The second generation never really ended because you see many Lich King orientated DKz in Northrend, but it is known that the Third Gen started exactly after the battle at Light's Hope Chapel, after the Lich King betrayed Darious (Darious?) and they broke off from the Scourge.

[Welden]

The Second Generation clearly states that it consisted of Fallen Paladins.

The Third Generation started before the Ebon Blade's rebellion. It is a fundamentally different Death Knight with different capabilities. The Second Generation trained the Third Generation... In time the Masters will be surpassed by the Pupils; it's inevitable. That time just isn't right now.

The Ebon Blade was only a part of the Third Generation's populace. They aren't the only of their kind. There are others, who weren't assigned to Archerus, that are still under the control of the Lich King. It's illogical to think that the Lich King developed a new, better DK and only assigned them all to one task. He would have spread his strength throughout his armies; it's simply more logical and efficient to do so. Especially considering he has a lot of dead bodies to work with.

[Zason]

I think part of the weakness of the Third Generation was the ability to break free.

2nd and 3rd are almost the same except from my understanding 3rd was just for the culling of New Avalon.

[Grakor456]

The Dark Factions excerpt would allow the player to decide. It would back up CotH's approach nicely, IMO.

This, pretty much.

I'll back this up by pointing out something I just thought of. Even if we assume all the DKs on Live are supposed to be dead, doesn't mean they have to be here. Like how we can allow Trolls to be Jungle Trolls of tribes other than Darkspear.

So...unless something comes up later that forces it one way or another, I'd say let the individual player decide. Doesn't hurt anyone and offers the most options.

[PiesOfNub]

I think that the only reason that the 2nd Gen Death Knights (Well, most at least) have not betrayed the Lich King is because it was of their own concious will, and when that combines with mindwashing and propaganda, it's practically impossible for them to break free of their hold.

And I would also assume that the 3rd generation were created mostly for bringing Tirion Fordring out of hiding so Arthas could kill him. Yes, 3rd generation Death Knights are everywhere now, Scourge or Ebon Blade, or even solitary. Both the death of Fordring and the spreading of the Death Knights were important tasks, I just think that the fomer was more important to Arthas personally.

EDIT: Think of the Death Knight generations like iPod generations. More are being made, newer generations, but the older generations are still being made, but rarer.

[Onusot]

life-death limbo state, neither fully alive nor dead.

Just want to point this out but isn't that exactly how you'd describe undeath?

From my point of views, all Death Knights are just as dead as the forsaken.