Just how "dead" are DKs?

[Grakor456]

So I've seen this come up several times, about just how dead DKs happen to be. And no, not in the context of ERP, as I've had my character asked if he still eats or not.

It's rather interesting, because the DKs in WC3 weren't necessarily reanimated bodies. Arthas never died, he just had his soul sucked out. I honestly see nothing that really separates his generation of DKs and the newer one, save the numbers they were made, so unless I'm missing something there's nothing that outright says they have to be dead beforehand. I think the closest that comes is the opening cinematic for DKs that says you died for your people, which is kinda dodgy at best.

Before Wrath came out, I was under the impression DKs were simply in a sort of life-death limbo state, neither fully alive nor dead. I remember also reading (I *think* in one of the DK quests on Live, but I'm not sure where exactly) that the DKs are without souls while they were under the Lich King's control, but regained them after being freed. It's never stated if they need to eat, sleep, or breathe or not, and if they don't whether they're still capable of 'faking' it or not.

While a game mechanics argument, it's worth pointing out, I think, that DKs are strangely missing any water breathing spells, and they have one spell that turns their type to undead, but it's a talent in Frost and lasts a short time.

I've, personally, always preferred the "between life and death" view on these guys, but I know a lot of folks just outright say they're undead, so I'm interested in hearing the arguments on that.

By the way...anyone with the d20 books, does taking the DK prestige class change your type to Undead?

[Dilly]

Well... I always saw it like this.

There was the first generation of DKs. Everybody knows about it and it doesn't seem important here.

Then there was the second 'generation'. Like Arthas. Who gave their souls to the Lich King and never died. Heh, I am not sure, can we play such things?

And then there was the third. People who have died in Plaguelands, Northrend, whatsoever, later raised by the Lich King as Death Knights. Then freed themselves with the Ebon Blade et cetera.

So, my opinion would be... There could be 'alive' Death Knights, the crazy coots who pledged themselves to the Lich King. And then there are the dead Death Knights. Who we all know about.

Heh, just my 0.0001 copper. Stomp it please.

[DaveM]

If there isn't a lore-given-ruling on this, I think -in the interest of character-making flexibility- that it should be coth-ruled that Dks are be able to have a varying degree of life/death:

Varying from a very darkened soul to no soul at all, from alive but corrupted to outright dead-and-recycled-later dead a.k.a. Forsaken DK (thus explaining the difference between forsakens and DKs and why DK humans go to Alliance and DK Forsak's to Sin'Shoalai).

If a mechanic specifically makes them undead for a while, I understand then that they are not undead and at-least-sort-of alive (or can be sort-of-alive).

[Dilly]

I agree!

Also...

Forsak's

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[PiesOfNub]

[spell]49039[/spell]

Here you are. The ability Lichborne suggests that the Death Knights aren't Undead beforehand, and can draw upon unholy energies to become so.

So, all I've managed to derive from the nature of the ability is that Death Knights (Bar Forsaken) are alive in a sense.. Consider the "becoming a Death Knight" ritual a resurrection of sorts, and that Death Knights can temporarily (Or permanently, depending on the power of the Death Knight casting the spell) turn themselves Undead, and possibly be classified as a Lich in turn.

[Anski]

How i've always seen it is that they were killed and practically shocked back to life through some wacky means of the Lich King. It's considered undeath, but that doesn't always leave the revived as the undead.

[Piken]

[spell]49039[/spell]

Here you are. The ability Lichborne suggests that the Death Knights aren't Undead beforehand, and can draw upon unholy energies to become so.

So, all I've managed to derive from the nature of the ability is that Death Knights (Bar Forsaken) are alive in a sense.. Consider the "becoming a Death Knight" ritual a resurrection of sorts, and that Death Knights can temporarily (Or permanently, depending on the power of the Death Knight casting the spell) turn themselves Undead, and possibly be classified as a Lich in turn.

Eh. I'm a big advocate of.. not taking -every, single ability- ICly. Imo, usually 50% of all spells and such are just filler for Blizzard to add things in to game mechanics for fighting, progression, etc. I look at Lichborne, and I just see a spell that makes you immune to CC, and nothing beyond it. I did a few of the quests on retail, and may actually go do them today when I get home(because I'm fail and still pay the bastards, even though I don't really play), that you're dead. And I always see it as these Death Knights are dead. Also, I thought I heard somewhere that even those who gave themselves willing were just killed, then reanimated, though not sure where.

Yes, it could be possible, but for EB DKs, I always consider them corpses. My DK is dead, and is quite bitter with the living for his own reasons. From all things I've seen, they're dead, and I feel they should be. But that's just my opinion.

[Hawk]

I always consider most DKs dead, but I suppose there's nothing stopping them from giving themselves to the Scourge. I believe the Cult of the Damned would be the most likely to give themselves up.

But I don't know how a non cultist would go about giving themselves up really. Unless the EB would do it.

[Grakor456]

How i've always seen it is that they were killed and practically shocked back to life through some wacky means of the Lich King. It's considered undeath, but that doesn't always leave the revived as the undead.

This actually brings up a good point. Even if we accept that all DKs died before their revival, that doesn't mean they're still "dead-dead." Obviously Forsaken would be because they were "dead-dead" even beforehand, but the others it's still up for question.

Basically, I agree with davemwow, in that if there isn't a firm Lore answer on this, it should be opened up for a variety of different answers and degrees. I think we can all agree that they're not fully alive, at least.

Still, if someone can provide a definite answer from the d20, that would be awesome. Also, I did go through the newbie DK quests and don't remember this mentioned, but if you can prove me wrong please do.

[Nostra]

Don't they go around and raise new death knights in Acherus before the Ebon Blade breaks away from the Scourge? That and some vague memories of them talking about it has had me thinking the Ebon Blade guys were all raised as undead.

[Hexproof]

I can't prove you wrong but I will point out that even if they were raised, I personally think it'd be more of a "normal"-ish resurrection, just changing (X) (X being the Light, Elune, or the flying spaghetti monster or what have you) and making it into the necromantic energies.

This'd probably also add the aspect of being mind-controlled, or that's a seprate thing altogether. Point is, I consider DK's to be alive, or at least more alive than your average, run of the mill undead. (Forsaken, ghouls, abominations, etc.)

That's just my opinion though and I could be completely wrong.

[Welden]

Even the most honorable warriors can fall prey to
the temptations of the Lich King. Some who devote
themselves to his cause become the horrors known as
death knights — elite members of the Scourge who lead
the Lich King's armies. Neither their personalities nor
their skills are lost, but their souls belong to the Lich
King.
Becoming a death knight does not, ironically enough,
involve actually dying. Thus, most death knights
resemble their living selves, though pale and with an
unholy light that illumines their malefi c eyes. However,
as powerful and valuable agents of the Scourge, death
knights are not freed from service to the Lich King
when they die. They are simply raised into undeath to
continue their grim work. As a result, the occasional
death knight is undead and more closely resembles a
zombie or skeleton, with rotting skin and protruding
bones.
Death knights, despite their evil natures, remain true to a code
of honor — or, at least, to a semblance of order and discipline
— but only in the strictest sense. In combat, for example, death
knights might abide by the rules of warfare even though in all
other respects they are ruthless and cruel combatants.

There you are! It seems at first, a Death Knight is alive, but its soul is under control of the Lich King. However, when a Death Knight falls in battle, it is raised again by the Lich King to continue his work. Then a new question rises; Once the Lich King loses his hold on a Death Knight that has died once before, does that Death Knight then die permanently?

I personally think that for the sake of RP, it depends on the history of the Death Knight. Has this Death Knight died under service of the Lich King before? If so, then he/she is now considered undead, but if he/she hasn't, then the Death Knight is not dead, but only mutated by the unholy energies flowing through his/her body. Mutation being defined as pale skin, altered voice, cold body, and glowing eyes.

[Nostra]

That's from one of those older books though, right? I don't think we can set anything fixed on the "new" death knights from lore, so I guess we'll have to decide for ourselves.

[Welden]

This version is from 2008.

[Grakor456]

First off, thanks for the quote, Welden!

After that, I still like the "Its up to the individual DK" viewpoint. It makes the most sense and offers the most possibilities.