The Direction of CotH

[Yukai]

I read the first 5 posts and got kinda bored so I skipped the rest. I got the gist of it though.

Warning; the following is my ramblings and I refuse to spell check. If it does not make sense, it's cause I'm tired.

All in all, it's hard to think about how important a player is until you look at the Rp they are in. After all, CotH has been turning more and more into an environment where heroes are rather unneeded, as the characters which make major plot turns are controlled by higher ups.

If a character doesn't fit a scenaio, then it breaks the immersion, and players will complain. An example of this is a 'ZOMG UBER L33T' hero in bar talking with commeners. It can happen, but will kill the mood, as Leth pointed out, powerful characters kill the mood and ruin Rp for the person playing them, and annoys the people putting thought into the simple characters around them.

Getting to my point, it's not so much about how important a character is, because by social standards here, we can't, and if we do, a lot of things become expected of us IC and OOC. The point is that CotH will only really need characters which are almighty, loved/hated, worshipped heroes if it has a storyline which requires one. Most of CotH's Rp is, regardless of how evil it is (Looking at you, Circle of Discord), rather social.

TL;DR - We don't really need important characters to be played until we have important scenarios which fit them. Until then, we need not think about how important a character is, but, as the title says, the direction of CotH as a whole.

EDIT: Now I have hot chocolate, it just occured to me that considering power is the issue here, and power is only relavent in combat (otherwise it's just bragging rights, and as I pointed out to someone the other day, someone who is bragging could always just be lying). The whole power portion to this discussion is derailed seeming we multiple combat systems. Some use the GHI, some use the roll system and some trust each other enough to play it accordingly.

[Amerason]

Alright! I've done my best to read everyone's post and well I have come to a few conclusions myself.

1.) On the idea of the prestige and special characters in general I am okay with this, but only if you work for it like Walluce has with Raka and the Echoes. Example my character John who is the Chairman of the Commoner's Party that is running for offices throughout Elwynn has been doing a lot with the guild, not alone mind you, but a lot that may see him as mayor one day. Raka has been doing the same for his people I think, but I drew my character's inspiration from the idea of the Echoes. And in fact we are about to make change with the Fargodeep Mine event coming up on Sunday.

Think about it, if we take the mine back then that means that not just Goldshire and Elwynn would profit, but the Kingdom of Stormwind as a whole would, they could finally pump out some more money since they would have one of the mines back, a flow of resources such as gold and iron would come in and begin an economic revival for the Alliance, or maybe not. But after all that is just an example.

What I am really trying to say is that you have to work your way to change things. It's taken me about a month and a half and then some with John, and in-character he isn't a god when fighting since he is a retired marine and not really a fighter anymore. There are other kind of "powerful and special" after all. All in all I think that this is a good idea for characters to progress in that kind of sense, not necessarily the politician, but more than just special in terms of how well you fight.

2.) When fighting for example I've seen people like Ahdulan and Tukiab who have had roll battles and if a hit that would cripple them or damage them in any way was successful, rather than just go based off of hitpoints, he would react accordingly and have his character disoriented.

Example: *Jabtok lunged forward with his fists, it was clear that he aimed for Tukiab's chest, those bladed gauntlets of his were hungering for blood.*

Now say it hit, what he would do is.

*Tukiab doubled over in pain and fell to his knees. He held his chest tight and coughed up blood. He had no time for retaliation and was at the mercy of his attacker*

Now that is a pretty crude example, but something similar. I am not saying that fights should be like this, just an example as to the kind of fighting that I see. It's good that kind of example, and is like... trust and roll not sure what I am trying to explain but it makes sense to me.

3.) The direction of CoTH is making a good shift, for better of for worst we'll find out. But I think that we should keep with this and maybe allow some more things, lore is important and so is realism, but so is having fun. So why not compromise and have a bit of both. It is fantasy after all.

[Aruen]

Note: Only read Grak's OP and skimmed through a couple of replies.

Whilst there would be a few initial problems (and by a few, I think a lot, IMO)... I do agree. Though I'm actually not too bothered about the current system, I wouldn't mind a bit of flexibility.

Things such as roll fighting the environment don't take on the fact how much combat experience their character has, and you often have people surviving the Wars and having vast amount of fighting experience end up getting their ass whooped by Defias Bandits.

The problem is, we need to avoid crossing the line where suddenly everyone is special, and the person who wants to roll the average joe thief has been forced to die because the guy who found them kills Scourge and Demons by the dozens everyday whilst eating a jam sandwich. Obviously exaggerating, but you get my point.

Agreed, not much more to add to it then simply agreed.

Here, on CotH, we have our own little world. Do I think we should be able to fly around on drakes and raid an instance IC as something else? (Think: running WC but pretending it's just some nameless cavern.) To be completely honest: I do. And why, Moose? Because it's fun. It doesn't break lore, although it does bend it a little--but if you can explain it, and it doesn't have you meta/god/powergaming or horribly marring lore, where's the problem? If it's really, truly that bad, you can patch it over later with a retcon or something.

Agreed again, but also pointing quoting this again:

but if you can explain it, and it doesn't have you meta/god/powergaming or horribly marring lore, where's the problem? If it's really, truly that bad,

Since it deserves to be read twice. EXPLAIN IT, properly, not with some half nut explanation as "Uhh, I just was exploring around." or something, give a real reason why you are there, and be sure to be still -realistic- as a farmer would simply die in one of those caves unless he stays far behind with 2 people constantly protecting his butt. Really, if everyone goes around flying drakes and raiding stuff IC-wise it kills the game even further, if I wanted that, I'll hop back to retail along with the rest of the shitty RPers.

Agreed, most people do deserve some more permissions. But like said before, I think it's best the way we're going. (Applications for prestige titles, and such) If you look at it a bit longer, there actually is more available to grunts than every before since the restart. (Which was originaly available to Heroes and GMs only)

Agreed

What I'm getting at is: Yes, there are less exceptions to power now-a-days. But that is a good thing, in my opinion. If every character was allowed to become a sort of demi-god from the start, then there would be virtualy no more creativity involved in character creation. A few may say "that won't happen", but it has happened, otherwise we wouldn't have the rules and regulations that still exsist. More events and more opportunities for heroes to rise would be nice, and I think the fact that prestige titles are available to anyone who has been here for over a month should satisfy those who wish to have more options. When everyone is superhuman/special, no one is.

Agreed, in my opinion.. Don't change much, don't loosen the bounds too much because it's fine the way it is now. I like the realism, or rather, I love the realism. Changing that would kill it for me personally. But hurr, despite not having voiced my opinion much and quoting a lot, I did read through much. Simply got not much more to say at this point.

[rentreality]

Alright! I've done my best to read everyone's post and well I have come to a few conclusions myself.

Thank god. It always shocks me when people enter a debate, freely admitting that they have no clue what has happened in the discussion past the first few posts.

2.) When fighting for example I've seen people like Ahdulan and Tukiab who have had roll battles and if a hit that would cripple them or damage them in any way was successful, rather than just go based off of hitpoints, he would react accordingly and have his character disoriented.

Example: *Jabtok lunged forward with his fists, it was clear that he aimed for Tukiab's chest, those bladed gauntlets of his were hungering for blood.*

Now say it hit, what he would do is.

*Tukiab doubled over in pain and fell to his knees. He held his chest tight and coughed up blood. He had no time for retaliation and was at the mercy of his attacker*

Now that is a pretty crude example, but something similar. I am not saying that fights should be like this, just an example as to the kind of fighting that I see. It's good that kind of example, and is like... trust and roll not sure what I am trying to explain but it makes sense to me.

The combat system decidedly needs an overhaul, and the way you describe it is something I would like to see more of. An armored berserker will be killed just as dead as Farmer Joe if he's shot in the neck with a high-powered rifle. You will not be able to grip your sword if Doctor Mansfield darts in and cuts your wrist tendons with a catlin, just as you won't be able to run if he does the same thing to your Achilles tendon. This isn't something you can roll on, realistically, beyond the roll to dodge, parry, or block: if the hit lands, the damage is done, and you will be unable to do those actions. You may even be permanently crippled, if the tendons don't heal, or don't heal as strong as they were.

Fighting should be a gritty, bloody thing. Too often I see people get flattened with what would be the atomic weaponry of WoW (magic), only to watch them strut about the next day, flexing their rippling muscles -- forget about the mental and physical scarring from this kind of energy hitting them, they aren't even bed-ridden!

[angorianka]

My own little comment:

"When everyone is superhuman/special, no one is."
I do not fully agreed to that. In theory, everyone in roleplay can be special, but what would make it boring is if everyone was special in the exactly same way. Which is not the case.

In my opinion it does is realistic that a demon-army-slaying-while-eating-a-jam-sandwich guy can be mugged by a thief. What is necessary for it to happen is, the right place, and the right time. The same almighty warrior can still be 'bonked' with a brick on his head while he is not alert, walking through the Stormwind city in casual clothing. There is something called "specialization". While one character can be the master of the sword, other can be master of the bow. Whether way, the first can still get shot dead with a bow, and the second may not survive a melee combat. What is unrealistic is, if one person would specialize in everything.

I have nothing against a character being powerful as long as he has well contra-weighted weaknesses.

On the other note, I think that after the Retail WoW RP, a lot of people do enjoy being that average Joe the warrior, who for once has to work hard to earn his powers instead of earning them after bashing a few beasts across the head and whipping a few peons (or gathering a few buckets of grapes), thus earning the level and new skills.

EDIT:

Ah yes, and about fighting system...

I would propose something like, if both fighters agreed to fight life and death, rolls 1-30 miss, rolls 30-60 bruise, rolls 60-90 wound and rolls 90-100 wound heavily (something in lines of a stab in someone's stomach, which is a mortal wound if it's not tended to immediately)

[Harmonic]

To be honest... I do this a lot. With Rensin. I think what we need is the moderation factor, if you can do it, but not make yourself a lore figure, then there you go. Yes, we are stronger than average heros, no, you are not more special than anyone around you.


And please, REMEMBER, being the hero means your ass gets in DANGER. Again, that's part of the reason Rensin gets some wind beneath his wings, he's accomplished stuff that's pretty difficult, but you can't do that if you are so attached to your character that they cannot die. Just like in the Pen and Papers.

[Khalista]

I'm sure anyone that actually sat through one of my posts before already knows I tend to build a massive wall of text that immediately makes the viewer's eyes cross and that small tendril of drool begin as the mind loses focus when presented with anything beyond 100 words. As the length of my post itself will prohibit people paying attention to it, I'll try a new strategy. Main points in post, explanation in spoiler! (Thanks given to my brother for the idea, maybe someone will actually read what I said this time :mrgreen: )

Power or lack of it has been one of my peevs since joining the server. There are thousands of NPCs out there that are Average Joe(s), adventurers are supposed to be something different. An adventurer, by the nature of being someone willing to risk their life constantly for whatever reason, is viewed as slightly insane by a "normal" person while also being held in a small sense of awe or envy for doing something the "normal" people can't. As simple as a gnoll bandit killing band of mercs in Westfall to a squad of the Argent Crusade's Legionnaires laying siege to Ice Crown Citadel. These different levels of power do and should co-exist in the RP world. Players should have the option of joining whichever level they would like to with the understanding that their RP will be limited once selection has been made.

Spoiler:

This doesn't necessarily mean that every character created should be the epitome of awesomeness and attractiveness. It doesn't mean they should all be born from an ancient line of whatever descended from dragons and gods given flesh carrying a weapon passed down through the ages that makes them a living god in their own right. It can mean their farm house was burned down by raiders or that they were trained by someone who was a power back in the third war, that they grew up in a different way, or simply it could mean they have a neat trick they employ in card games to cheat their way to victory until someone known for a similar talent rivals them.

We're human beings capable of both imagination and reason. We are each capable of choosing for ourselves a set of limits on our own power house characters and that isn't the problem.

The problem is that our limitations and excesses will clash with another person's. Our opinions are different, therefore our limits will be different. One person may find it perfectly reasonable to have a character that has such speed of hands he could make objects seem like they disappear. Another person may find that insanely OP. A third may find that to be a run of the muck parlor trick.

This is where the rules and regulations come into play in an effort to standardize what is acceptable and what isn't between all the members of the community. Specifics are necessary here, guidelines for behavior and known limitations to curb the wilder ideas while at the same time trying not to overly limit creativity. The amount of effort taken to fully explain the limits and capabilities initially will directly and exponentially reduce the amount of effort necessary to maintain the system once established. (Lay down the 10 commandments of DO's and DO NOT's and you'll save a lot of trouble later by being able to tell people "Read this")

This has been done to a certain degree already in the profile approval stage, at present to get a profile approved is very very simple, in fact I had a profile approved that I personal viewed as a waste of text that gave little to no depth to the character I was presenting and am now embarrassed about when I review their profile on the wiki. It's that easy to get a character through the gates. The hard part comes after, now that character is trapped to a relatively featureless history and everything I have to look forward to with that character is based on what it can do with it's meager history and weakly expressed personality in the future of it's existence. Humble beginnings indeed.

Special abilities don't appear over night. The Profile for a character should readily list all of those special traits, keen eye sight, special speed or strength and what not. If we're going to allow wide differences, this is where those differences should first be approved or denied. Instead of denying everything outright, the Profile is where the GMs should discuss what they want or don't want. Once it's approved, it's there, acting as a precedent for all those who come afterwards.

Spoiler:

Jumping back to the analogy of the Gnoll slayers and the Legionnaires. There may be someone in the slayer group that is absolutely breathtaking in their swordsmanship, their speed and grace is outstanding, their precision incredible. They may in fact have the potential to be one of the best swordsman in the world, and yet this gnoll slaying group is all they have had access to for one reason or another. Conversely, there may be someone who is slightly below average in the Legionnaires, someone whose skill with weapons leaves them barely able to handle a single zombie on their own, but who is a wonderful friend to those in his unit, has great jokes and makes the whole squad feel better in the down time.

The power of a character isn't always in their special abilities category, sometimes the best characters to RP, the ones that stick out in our minds the most, are those who were simply normal people in extraordinary situations. It doesn't demean our average man that someone in the squad is better than he is with a sword or mace nor does it mean he needs to rail against the fate that left him lackluster in that department.

There are extremes, we're supposed to push close to these but it's up to the individual trying to play them as to how far they want to go, and up to the community to decide how far they will allow them to go. It helps immensely to have a standard system in place to show this. In the table top RPG, this is expressed through the character sheet, you have so much gifted to you naturally (stats) and so much more you learn along the way through experience. If you really want to clarify the capacities, why not give everyone the opportunity to set their stats up for each character as we do now with alignment?

Spoiler:

There is a point-buy system listed in the book that anyone could use which has been ironed out over many editions of the d20 system. We have both the WoW lore from the computer games and the lore from the RPG which sometimes butt heads on details but for the most part integrate well. For every aspect of the PC game that gets stripped out, something needs to replace it. Player made replacements take a lot of time and effort, causing a lot of strife and drama until the system is beaten into rough shape. Stealing from the RPG books would be a lot easier and faster.

Let's face it, Private Servers aren't condoned by Blizzard, we're basically stealing the game already to make something we want out of it. Taking the info from the books to flesh it out is done almost on a daily basis already whenever a debate topic starts up. We might as well draw more of the skeleton of the RPG into the PC game to help balance matters. How much is up to everyone else. I think the combat system and character creation system could benefit this server a great deal.

:!: GMs at least please read all of this part :!:
Conflict Resolution seems to be one of the burgeoning elements that causes the most trouble. People don't care nearly as much about someone's special ability to out-burp all comers in Tavern RP as they do about someone's ability to roast an enemy without batting an eyelash. This is one area that I've been yipping about privately since my first day. How do you know who wins, how do you know what attacks do crippling damage, which ones do nothing? How is combat handled when you can't throw a duel flag and settle it in the way the game gave us? Trust works great for those willing to go that route, it makes for outstanding RP combat, but not every conflict can be handled that way so I believe we need a public standard that can be applied to all non-Trust based combat. Something posted on the website and official.

Spoiler:

Personally I'd rather have more pvp based combat as WoW set it up but that would mean a lot of work and a lot of complaints due to the unbalanced nature of what works and what doesn't on the server itself. It would also clash heavily between those who believe everything on the talent page should be applicable in game and those who don't. In general PvP itself would cause more trouble than it's worth to try to enforce on everyone. We all understand this on some level.

At the same time we do in fact need something to work with here. The d100 rolls to see who succeeds or fails is great if all you need is a success/fail answer. If you want something beyond that you need more specifics. Claws to the chest could tear apart the person or they could just cause bloody gashes, chest armor could soak the attack completely, the dice based resolution should matter. The degree in different numbers should have an impact as well, in my opinion.
Ex. A tauren warrior swings his mighty totem in an effort to impact his enemy's chest with such crushing force as to end the fight in a single blow. (Player Roll: 6 The night elf hunter tries to dodge out of the way with a quick back flip attempting to come under the weapon in mid-swing. (Player Roll: 67 [Score 1/0])

She begins her flip but the blow manages to score her ribs, unbalancing her move but not doing the damage intended. Landing she regains her balance and throws a dirk aimed for the Tauren's throat. (Player Roll: 92). The Tauren, his attack not hitting as heavily as aspected, swings around, his totem coming back to the forefront in preparation for the next swing, consequently obscuring the dirk's path. (Player Roll: 5 - Critical [Score 1/1+])

But not enough, the dirk cuts deeply into the side of his neck leaving a bloody wound that may end the battle prematurely if he doesn't tend to it. Ripping a strip of cloth from his cloak, he tries to stave the blood flow as best he can with one hand, gripping his weapon defensively with the other. (Player Roll: 73) The night elf charges forward to stop him, her foot coming up to kick his weapon away and leave him defenseless for further attacks. (Player Roll: 65 - Critical absolved - Score [1/1]).

This is a fairly simple setup, the devil is in the details. 1d100 roll to attack, 1d100 roll to defend. Successful attack generates 1 point, successful critical generates 1 point and leaves a grievous wound that if not tended will result in another point granted on the next round and each round after that until tended to which could quickly end the match. Critical scored whenever the attack roll exceeds the defense roll by 50 or more. (49/100 or 1/52 example) Anything over 50 is counted as a successful attack or defense but not enough to "stop" the attack fully, anything below 50 being mis-aimed with the potential to get lucky (i.e. Punch roll 47, dodge roll 43, dodger slips and bashes their head on the ground instead of getting punched)

Having a public system of guidelines on how the dice themselves work without exact rules on how the combat should be resolved gives a great leeway when it comes to the RP side of any conflict yet still gives players a mutual ground to work from.

I've played a LOT of different games and seen tons and tons of different RP based combat systems, I can present at least half a dozen on request that wouldn't require more than one post to explain in a way that anyone could understand and utilize. If you'd like, I'd love to start a thread with several proposed systems and see what others think about them.

Skimming replies is far easier than getting flamed for ignoring them and less embarrassing than stating something a dozen people have spoken of before you. Also.. It's just rude to ignore the comments of others when they took just as much time and put forth as much effort as you intend to, sometimes more. Respect, remember?

Thank you Grak for bringing up something I've been wanting to for a long while but didn't want to risk the firestorm over! <3
:mrgreen:

[Grakor456]

Good feedback so far. I want to comment on something right quick though...I may make a more lengthy reply later, but for now, I want to ask something...or at least point something out.

The problem is, we need to avoid crossing the line where suddenly everyone is special, and the person who wants to roll the average joe thief has been forced to die because the guy who found them kills Scourge and Demons by the dozens everyday whilst eating a jam sandwich. Obviously exaggerating, but you get my point.

Here's the thing...if you're playing your average petty mugger, for example, aren't you sort of accepting that your character would lose against someone with real combat experience? In other words, if you're playing a "normal" character, then being unable to match those with powerful skills seems part of the package, doesn't it?

When we're talking about raising the power of PCs in general, we hit the point where we get to this odd bit of logic. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but several replies can basically be boiled down to this: "It's fine, so long as my purposefully underpowered character is not actually underpowered" or "It's fine, so long as that powerful character is not actually powerful." It sounds to me like people are playing "normal" characters in order to save face with their peers, not because that is the actual character that they want to play.

[Aruen]

"It's fine, so long as that powerful character is not actually powerful." It sounds to me like people are playing "normal" characters in order to save face with their peers, not because that is the actual character that they want to play

For me it's rather: "It's fine, so long as not everyone in Azeroth is that powerful." Not much realism if everyone is Marshal of lord knows what, flying drakes around and well.. It ruins the fun as well from my point of view. Sure, we will always lose some fights, but being a person with a actual "normal" character that loses everything seeing people want to run with 2handed swords held in one hand, rather ride a tiger then a horse as human, or walk around raising minions where they go seeing their that bloody powerful.. Well, you get my point hopefully, it's not fun any more. I like playing "normal" characters who can improve themselves, not one who is king of lord knows what with a arsenal of fire spells he can cast in a second.

Because from my eyes, if we actually loosen those bounds that will happen. Not once, but just.. everywhere. >.>

[Hawk]

Well, then again, what if someone wants to be a normal footsoldier who doesn't actually want to get into player conflict in the first place?

Maybe I'm saying it wrong. But what I mean is if we get to a point where people bluntly say that their character is vastly superior to others and cause a load of drama over it, perhaps we need to reconsider something.

[Amerason]

I don't really see that happening. There is a point where it becomes blatent godmodding. Really it comes down to trusting your fellow player. I know that when I fight Death Knights, Paladins, or Druids, or even a Tauren/Draenei. I tend to make my characters weaker against them.

[Moose]

I think that when people talk about "so long as these characters aren't too powerful," they mean "so long as the player doesn't godmode my butt out the door." Because we can all handle a little conflict maturely, right? And most of us can deal with trustRP without screaming at each other and whining about it when our less powerful character dies. But it IS an issue when players are so desperate to win that they start bending the facts in RP, and I see that happening a lot already. Having a powerful character is fine, but using that to lord yourself over others is not.

inaftreveryoneelse

[Hawk]

But it IS an issue when players are so desperate to win that they start bending the facts in RP[/color], and I see that happening a lot already. Having a powerful character is fine, but using that to lord yourself over others is not.

What I've been trying to say, heh. Moose explains things better. >.>

[DaveM]

(...)
"It's fine, so long as my purposefully underpowered character is not actually underpowered" or "It's fine, so long as that powerful character is not actually powerful." It sounds to me like people are playing "normal" characters in order to save face with their peers, not because that is the actual character that they want to play.

If you would have it as a given that rolling a high-power character means you should pwn other characters that are not thus designed - then people -will- do that and -will- abuse that. (They basically do it in the status quo)

I want my low-powered character to actually be able to stand up to the high-power one - not because I think it's a cool fad to roll low characters, but as a counter-measure to high-power-character-players-being-asses:

If a hi(gher)-power-character (Like Raka'Jin as an example of choice) wants to act powerful my way in a way that's for the story, not for the player's e-peen, then I'll gladly let him power-ish-emote at me in a fun fashion. (Walluce is too good a' guy to do that, but I'd gladly let'm all day long).

However if Belf Paladin Engineer Death Knight "Flarsp: Looks badass, stay away!" feels like letting me know OOC that It'd be realistic he'd pwn me even if he is just attacking me because I said that thing that offended him because the parents that raised him were "dirty orcs" and " he does have 200 years of constant training!", I'm going to have to say "Sorry, no. Please roll for it."

TL;DR - see Hawk's post quoting Moose just above.
(Inb4red )

[Aruen]

(...)
"It's fine, so long as my purposefully underpowered character is not actually underpowered" or "It's fine, so long as that powerful character is not actually powerful." It sounds to me like people are playing "normal" characters in order to save face with their peers, not because that is the actual character that they want to play.

If you would have it as a given that rolling a high-power character means you should pwn other characters that are not thus designed - then people -will- do that and -will- abuse that. (They basically do it in the status quo)

I want my low-powered character to actually be able to stand up to the high-power one - not because I think it's a cool fad to roll low characters, but as a counter-measure to high-power-character-players-being-asses:

If a hi(gher)-power-character (Like Raka'Jin as an example of choice) wants to act powerful my way in a way that's for the story, not for the player's e-peen, then I'll gladly let him power-ish-emote at me in a fun fashion. (Walluce is too good a' guy to do that, but I'd gladly let'm all day long).

However if Belf Paladin Engineer Death Knight "Flarsp: Looks badass, stay away!" feels like letting me know OOC that It'd be realistic he'd pwn me even if he is just attacking me because I said that thing that offended him because the parents that raised him were "dirty orcs" and " he does have 200 years of constant training!", I'm going to have to say "Sorry, no. Please roll for it."

TL;DR - see Hawk's post quoting Moose just above.
(Inb4red )

Yurr.. been trying to say that >.> I suck at writing and express my opinion/thoughts online.