The Direction of CotH

[Grakor456]

Warning: This post will be long and rambling. I hope you read through it, though, because I want feedback from you, the players.

I was playing on Retail today (a crime, I know!), doing some dailies and doing quests on my DK in Icecrown. Merely level 77/78 (I dinged today) I admit some enthusiasm in finally hitting 80 on him soon. Having not done these quests before, I was rather amazed at the things Blizz has done with the phasing system...you're on a quest to push the Scourge back, and your actions actually give both the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade their footholds in Icecrown.

As I'm wandering back to Crusader's Pinnacle to repair, I see several Crusaders of Virtue salute me, and one making a comment to the effect of "You honor us with your presence, Balgarn!" Thinking back, I had a similar welcoming in Warsong Hold, with orcish guards cheering at me and making awe-inspired comments at my mere presence there after nearly single-handedly solving all the problems in Borean Tundra.

I open up with this story because it, along with several other quests in Northrend, really got me thinking about what WoW RP is and should be, and what CotH RP is and should be. It really got me thinking about that, and how RP here on CotH was before Wrath's restart, and how it is now.

In retail, you play a simple member of your race who rises up to become a true hero of your people, leaving people's lives changed forever in your wake. That's essentially what WoW's storyline is all about overall...the tale of heroes from humble beginnings making Azeroth a better place. We've stifled that in CotH...you can't be special, you have to be average Joe warrior that no one cares about. At the same time, that makes sense in some ways by the nature of RP...if everyone is special, then being special stops being so...special.

Still, that is what player characters are. They're members of their race who are exceptional in one way or another...and that isn't just for WoW, but the vast majority of RPGs. D&D casts you in the role of adventurers with abilities far beyond the common man. Most video game RPGs have you starting as a simple peasant and rising up to save the world.

I also remember back before Wrath...Qaza's tribe of zombie trolls, Grakor being an orcish ambassador at Stormwind, the mix of all races at the Drudaen Tavern...things that we've lost in the name of realism. I admit, some changes I think are positive. I wanted to see more conflict between the factions...though, right now, it seems less conflict and more just complete lack of interaction. That in itself is a problem, as Horde and Alliance don't have enough interactions with one another, either way.

What do you all think? I want your honest opinions. What direction should CotH go in? How humble should the players be and how far should the GMs go in policing the playerbase for realism? I promise no changes one way or another, but I think it's something that is at least worthy of discussion.

[Scout]

I think that there's a certain feel which you can only attain by being someone a bit larger than life. I remember the days before the server reset very fondly, and I had some very good times. I think that a slight shift toward heroism and less realism would be perfectly acceptable. Perhaps there should be some way to prevent it from being abused as well, but I don't know. I feel as though people should be able to sometimes perform events that more or less change things rather dramatically. The attack on Stormwind by Alistus comes to mind, though that seems to be an extreme case and would require GM monitoring and much time to come to fruition.

Little things like when you allowed a player to be the ambassador from the Sin'sholai to Thrall also would make a difference, I think.

[Amerason]

Hey Grakor and CoTH. Well, Grakor I think you remember me from old CoTH. And I will admit that I miss a lot of what old CoTH used to be. It was one of the things that made it special, of course no less special than it is now. When you could be a character who would rise through ranks and interact with NPCs on positive and negative reactions. Not just guards I mean, I mean major characters etc. It was really fun and engaging and made for great storylines.

Even if some of them were more ridiculous but no less fun, example my old Dark Iron Dwarf Kelenvar, who before the first restart of CoTH became Dark Iron Emperor. It was really cool, but also something we shouldn't strive to do again without proper precautions on the account that is very up there. After all, that was just an example and one of the extreme cases from old CoTH.

Now with the new CoTH I like it, I do, I see the changes for the best. But I also don't think that mixing elements of old CoTH and new CoTH would be such a bad idea. Taking things and making big leaps that effect things throughout the world of Azeroth. Especially with upcoming Cataclysm. Of course it would require a transition period and make sure that things are fair etc. But you know what I mean. I don't think it would be a bad idea. Not in the least.

Another example for how we are heading in this direction already is with the Darkspear Echoes and the Commoner's Party. They are both taking back their well.. homelands or fighting for their homelands. And actually making a change, it's something that is new from what I can tell and something that I think CoTH could use and get to know. Not just for those two guilds but for RP on CoTH as a whole. It would be fresh and new and something I think that the player base and GMs would really enjoy.

After all, it is "WARCRAFT" not "LOVECRAFT"... H.P. Lovecraft.......

[Walrus]

I've always thought that the best part of CotH was the player bases ability to make Progress.

Like you said, players start out from simple beginnings and then rise to amazing heights of adventure and glory on retail! CotH, should be such to a similar and satisfying degree, in my own opinion.

Granted, everyone should be able to make their character unique and different, but I by no means advocate making them a Warcraft god, so to speak. Such practices obviously promote godmodding and hurt the RP quality of the server. Characters, though, are a breed apart from the NPC's we see in-game.

Moderation, is what I suggest.

Also I would love some cross faction conflict RP!

Everyone is a Main Character, everyone is the center of a story. No one is a god among warcraft.

[Aruen]

Mwurh.. I'm personally not sure how to respond on this as I haven't played Retail in ages nor have I witnessed anything before this Wrath restart.. Despite that, I'll give my honest feedback on the server as it is now.

The GMs? Are doing a awesome and great job, the area's they spawned which you don't see on retail are great, these days they take controls of NPCs a lot more which makes it -very- interesting because guards can suddenly throw you out of some place you aren't meant to be as they walk in and all. I like that, it adds much to the realism for me.

Regarding the special bit, everyone is special in one way or another. (Note, special.. not strong, unique, just.. special), defined through character, history, past experiences and events witnessed on CotH. I like it, but at times it also makes me want to pull my hair out as unless you are a older character, you tend to lose a lot of fights. Sometimes that isn't bad, but it does make me personally avoid dangerous situations a lot. At least by myself.

Regarding the horde/alliance combat bit, it is indeed -very- little. And if it is there, it's not combat. Merely talking, calling names or at least, that's what I have witnessed. Stromgarde was a good move, but died off relatively quickly. Now, it stands dead with nobody having a clue (or at least, most) with what to do regarding it any more. Resurrection attempts failed, and looking at realism both sides would have felt miserable/tired from fighting already. All in all, there really is not much fighting with the other races, or at least, I haven't witnessed it any time lately.

As for my thoughts on how to move on? Quite honestly, I've got no clue. I like the way it goes so far. And am betting I'll be here for a very long time. I don't know what is there to improve on the policies/rules/approaches, but something is indeed missing. No clue what however, after all.. Haven't been here for that long yet.

[Touchseed]

Ok, w/o reading any other replies:

I like the philosophy of player characters being special and the dynamic of building up for greatness. I think the directions CotH has gone in has stifled this, instead of moderating it. And I think it needs to be moderated. All of the realism that everybody seems to want to use is nice and all.. But it doesn't make anything fun. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the conquest for realism has been more abused than used.

[Terant]

Disclaimer: I only read the main post and not the replies yet.

Firstly, the character idea. While I think loosening the restrictions on everybody being a nobody is a good idea, it definitely has a few potential problems, not the least of which is godmoding. On the other hand, it is often frustrating when you have a character that would make more sense being a bit "special" and you have to tone it down to play, and I certainly wouldn't mind it if we were all a little more important XD.

As far as phasing and leveling on retail, I leveled Terant (His name is Teranse there since everything is taken... And he's in Moose's guild <3) to 80 before I quit, and I have to admit I did like the way that he was a bit above the norm (According to NPCs, at least). Hell, even Rhonin sent me a letter of congratulations for reaching my "80th season of training!" Now, obviously loosening the rules on above-average character creation wouldn't go so far as allowing everyday conversations with lore figures or world-changing solo missions, but being able to have some level of importance in the world is a great idea.

Then there's the cross-faction stuff. This I fully support. It would definitely be nice to see some cross-faction warfare going again, but peace definitely beats nothing. Although I joined shortly after the restart, I've heard a lot of stories about the Drudaen Tavern and everything else. Most of them were good stories.

Apologies if none of this made any sense to you whatsoever. I ramble sometimes. xP

[mcguiver]

I really think there should be something done for those guild or characters that push over the RP in CotH!

like there are some that arte trying to reach that goal ICly, but there is the realism factor which stops or breaks this character´s dreams...

I mean not make them unique and immortal, but....deffinately having some more power then other you know?...maybe starting by controling an area or something...that would give a good thrill for the rest to make a real effort to become someone important.


for example: those who get their storyline completed recieve a title or some recognition

Just suggesting

[Anski]

Characters in prose are the proverbial heroes.

To elaborate; Characters are designed with the intent to become stronger, or succumb to their weaknesses. The glorious epics of the Greek and the Romans depict god-like humans, characters with the golden skin and the flesh heel. Characters of these times, as described by if I remember correctly Sophocles in his Oedipus the King tragedy, were the only characters, the tragic hero. Characters that stood as god among men, they were inspiring and made everyone want to be them, but they were dimensional through their tragic flaw, something to make them human. Hundreds, thousands of these stories were written, all of them casting major, lore inspiring characters. Hercules, Oedipus, Agamemnon, Achilles, Hector, the list goes on and on for years to come. This is, what seems to me, every major Lore character in WoW is based off of. The golden skin and the flesh heel, or the invulnerable outside and the sealing weakness.

However, one of my favorite authors took it upon himself to redesign this hero, reverse their interior. The tragic hero, as defined by Arthur Miller in Death of the Salesman and The Crucible, the characters were more human than everyone had expected. Willy Loman, the titular character, was simply to put it, human. These are the characters we play. Their defining traits are still there, whether changing from integrity, whatever defining trait you choose for your character, but are restricted as they aren't the demi-gods of the Sophocles variety. These characters are the ones who are able to integrate into society, they are the standard.

You may be thinking, "How does this integrate into RP?"

We are the normal characters. We strive not to let one superior over the others in any way. Going around saying "I am a master of [x]" when their character is 21, has been all throughout the world and trained under Thrall, Arthas and everyone in between, it's just looking terribly immodest. We restrict this so that players won't get upset over things their characters do. If I fire a shotgun at a fire mage master character, who then melts all the bullets and doesn't even blink, and renders himself immortal, what am I supposed to do? Pray to Cthulhu he doesn't roast me alive while sipping tea and chatting about the ridiculous amount of Stormwind rain while I remain helpless to his god powers?

It is satisfying to play a character in a single player game, read with a character through a novel, and it doesn't matter what everyone else in the novel thinks because, well, they're not being run by someone. We are. We control all of these characters, and sitting around with a character going, "Yeah, i'm apart of the Silver Hand, everyone here loves me, this is my magic sword named Fh'taang and it can sense the thoughts of people an- Oh sorry, gotta jet. Lunch with Varian in ten minutes," gets nerve scrubbing.

If everyone's riding around, absolutely exalted by a city with roses at their feet, that's just fine and dandy, but what about everyone else? If everyone is the hero of the city, speak with the king every other day or so, then what makes them so special?

You're RPing in a world where you can already create machines beyond your craziest dream, cast a multitude of magic, summon demons and speak with the spirits, and I out of many people know that once you've stretched your legs into it, these capabilities get old to see. We allow Prestige Classes so players CAN move forward, but after that, then what?


I am on the fence, and i'll be thinking about what i've said and what everyone has said and will say, but as for now, my thoughts are on the table.

[Tarne]

Well, consider this Grakor.

World of Warcraft has been through a lot of lore changes. From changes in war zones, to lore character deaths. The players have in lore, and OOCly beaten these enemies. Blizzard calls players in the game, Adventurers. Check out his page for what an "Adventurer has been described as. http://www.wowpedia.org/Adventurers This page describes what the players are in Lore, ICly. Read this page, you'll soon come to learn Blizzard wants the players themselves to be the special people in the world of warcraft. The players kill the bad guys, the players DO interact with lore characters (though very very unoften) and the players do tend to become famous.

So just read that page and take what I've said in to consideration. Players are the real heroes in warcraft

[Maulbane]

Honestly, I don't think CotH's TOO quelling when it comes to power. I mean, if it was, Maulbane wouldn't have a mailbox in his house that's an Ancient's pinky finger, and he sure wouldn't have a Devilsaur's head hanging up in it either. However, it is true when it comes to the normal players that it is very had to become powerful and such. But then I think, if they really want to be powerful they SHOULD put the work into writing like I have, not just run around like a headless chicken one-shotting Thrall because he is actually a dragon in disguise.

But I do think, when you do become a Prestige Class for real, and your training is complete, you should cross an invisible line from normal to abnormal. If people learn you're a blademaster you will end up well known quickly, or if you can talk to animals, or throw blocks of ice at people as big as peoples' mothers. There's really no way to be normal after that point, with so much special, or just plain old powerful abilities. Maybe not so far as Cairne himself talking to you (But then again, the few Holy Striders around are in his or Thrall's service), but I'm sure if you pass through Grunt Zug and Grunt Blug will be talking about you for days to come.

Maybe this is all because Maul's training to be a prestige class, but hey.

[Secrettom]

-Message purged.-

[Hexproof]

I read or skimmed most all the comments to some degree, surprisingly.

Personally, my stance on this is a neutral one.

In regards to "player power" if you will, I'd have to say that I certainly wouldn't mind if the playerbase were allowed to be a bit more unique. I'm certainly not saying anything along the lines of what's previously been stated. (I think dual-wielded Frostmournes was mentioned.) But I am saying, why not let someone play the hero now and again? A protagonist doesn't need to be uber-powered, never losing, and more or less unbeatable, but at the same time, they can't just be a face in the crowd. Perhaps a middle ground somewhere. Not "I can beat you in every fight cuz I haz da been killin things hurr!" but something more "I'm a little above average because (Good reason X), and (X VERY MINOR lore figure) might have said something SMALL about it or something."

In regards to policing realism. Here's where I'm really torn. Realism is a very good thing when it comes to writing. It makes things believable, and it makes it easier to get into and stay in character. Realism in that a Tauren could beat a Gnome in a battle of muscle hands down is good, or that a Human is less able to climb or something than a Troll.
The problem is that WoW, at heart, is a game. Realism in moderation can make RP awesome, and certainly makes it more fun for those involved. But some things in realism should be toned down. "That fall should've killed you!" "I got lucky and landed on/in (X)." That kind of thing. "I killed three Trolls in one fight!" (Not lying but leaving out the fact that he/she was wounded greatly and helped by Mr. Y.) There's a line where realism can be taken a bit too far, I think, and CotH, whilst I do love the server and respect the GM's, has gotten uncomfortably close to that line from when I got here. There's magic, super engineering, and 9,001 other good reasons to tone down realism just a tiny bit, I think.

CotH is great in that not everyone IS a special snowflake, but at the same time, I think everyone should perhaps have a CHANCE to BE a little bit more special. Not snowflake special, but Monday-night two for one burrito special, if you catch my meaning.

As for the Alliance and the Horde... there needs more violence. Wintergrasp was a very good idea, but the problem is that it's so far away from the homefront. The Sin'sholai events were all right up in the Blood Elves', Forsaken's, and even Stromgardians' faces, which is why they were so popular. The Horde and Alliance are at war, for (X diety)'s sake! We should be more violent. Peace makes for fun RP, but in my opinion it's a tad unreasonable on the part of all of us players that we aren't, I dunno, more bloodthirsty? The Arathi Conflict would be a good example of the atmosphere that I think should be between the Alliance and Horde.


Just my opinions. CotH right now is doing great, I think, but it should definitely be headed in a slightly different direction. A twitch to the steering wheel, if you get my meaning.

[Krent]

I remember the old, old days of COTH. Don't wanna glorify 'em too much because nostalgia is one of the most diluting filters one can put on memory, but I remember it being...funner. Being a Darkshire hailin' Stormwind Scout named Krent, riding on his horse and delivering messages about "THE LEGION IS BACK!!!!" to the various faction leaders. 'Course, Darkshire ended up blowing up (for the third time) and Krent ended up being a bisexual white-addicted narcissistic drug pusher instead of Azeroth's Paul Revere....but it was still a really fun ride.

I think the problem was that somewhere down the line, we came to realize that allowing such liberty in how players interpret the lore and carry out their characters created the possibility for crazy abuse. People went on the opposite end of the spectrum, becoming too special and heroic. We over reacted to that and gave this extreme backlash, implementing all of these screening processes and vouch systems and checks and balances.

I think the worst is when players took it upon themselves to be "Watch dogs" and began to triple check the lore over every little thing. I remember General Discussion being nothing but a giant list of heated arguments, people yelling at each other over everything. Think the breaking point for me is when someone tried to argue that cigarettes are lore breaking and should be banned from RP. That's what dissuaded me from the server for so long.

That long era where "Realism", "Standards" and "Lore" became more important than "Fun", "Equality" and "Creativity".

But. I'd like to see the server change again. I think it's been making better progress than before, although we're far from 'perfect'. We all have to realize, though, that the direction we'll be going in if we do decide to elevate the significance of characters would be backwards. Back to the original setting of the server's early incarnations.

Which isn't really a bad thing.

As far as heroism and prestige titles go...I think folks miss out on the most important parts of 'em. In nearly all forms of literature, the end results or the status a character gets isn't the significant part of the story. It's the journey involved in getting there. That's why I'm taking my time with all of my characters....'cause I really love seeing how they develop. Kind of do it based on whatever random crap happens.

[Moose]

Forewarning: ain't read nothin'. Cept Grak's post and I also saw Krent's.

I've thought this way from the start: having fun is more important than doing it by the books. I've always despised our heavy realism on travel, but never really saw a reason to open my mouth. Personally, I find nothing wrong with showing up in Ratchet one day and Stormwind the next--you're just going where you want to be, so that you can have the most fun RPing where you'd like to. The same goes for wilderness. I haven't really left the cities because I know I'd have to consider all these factors out in the wild that I really don't want to, when I just want to go for a camping trip or traverse through some dangerous wilderness.

I'll bite. What if CotH were like vanilla retail, but with people in place to make sure that the lore wasn't obviously broken (e.g. vampires) and godmoding/metagaming/what have you wasn't going on? What would you think, folks, then? If we could band together and down dragons and scour dungeons for treasure? Would it feel more epic to you, then? Would you /prefer/ it that way? I'm not saying it's the best thing that could go on, but I recall my days back in retail. They were NOT bad. In fact, in some ways, they were better than the RP I've found on CotH ever has been.

You see, when I played on retail, I was playing to have fun, not to respect lore. Speaking of the year or so before I found CotH, the RP was amazing. The people were talented, and we got into a bunch of great things with half-arsed explanations. We would experiment and actually succeed, even if for whatever reason our successes couldn't affect the world. We didn't have to take into account that the lore figures were trying and failing to get anywhere (mostly because WoW required it be that way). We just had our own little world.

Here, on CotH, we have our own little world. Do I think we should be able to fly around on drakes and raid an instance IC as something else? (Think: running WC but pretending it's just some nameless cavern.) To be completely honest: I do. And why, Moose? Because it's fun. It doesn't break lore, although it does bend it a little--but if you can explain it, and it doesn't have you meta/god/powergaming or horribly marring lore, where's the problem? If it's really, truly that bad, you can patch it over later with a retcon or something.

You want my opinion on things, ultimately? I don't like prestige titles. I don't like special profiles. I don't like all the restrictions we have in place to keep players from having a good time and enjoying themselves. Because, frankly, if it's fun for them and doesn't hurt anybody else, why are we policing it? Plenty of people, for example, could play an archmage just fine. I'm certain of it. But they aren't allowed to, and they can't roll a character that's a little above someone else. The people on CotH are, in many ways, people who don't NEED epic in their lives--but it's nice to have the opportunity. The people who are going to abuse that sort of thing are primarily on other servers.

This manner of thing has always made me grit my teeth. I've seen great ideas by good players get thrown out or crushed by the system we have in place, and I feel it's a) too stifling and b) just not fun any more. We don't need to all be the most epic character ever, but even I like a little glow on my armor from time to time. I'd rather we loosen up restrictions so that the good players can enjoy themselves rather than tighten them to a chokehold in the hopes of keeping trouble away.