Profile Harassment/Discouraging your fellow player

[Daginae]

I have to agree with Miah. First coming here, I had already known the good and bad reputation of CotH, but then again, the last RP server I came from, I was criticized and patronized just because I knew what I was talking about, and I'm not talking like in depth lore, I'm just talking basics because I believe it was wrong to play any lore character and it was a form of theft and lore rape cause you can study a character all you want, but if it's not yours, you can't efficiently play it. You have no idea what they're going to say or do, and for that, I was cast out.

So, yes, I came knowing quite a bit about this place, but had an open mind, and will admit that it way surpassed my expectations, in good and bad ways I should mention. At first I didn't really state my opinions because I figured "Oh these guys are hardcore, if you state your opinion, they're just going to kick and ban me" but the longer I've been here the more I realized that yes, there's a lot of restrictions, yes there's a lot I can and can not do, but atleast people are willing to somewhat listen and perhaps act on opinions or idea's here where as the former server and retail were like "No we wants our "I R Arthas" or "I R Edward Cullin". Now yes, I will admit the induction process from peon to grunt could uh...be slightly more laxed, and people could be a little less critical of something just because an NPC stated it, because as we know, Blizzard has been very good at retconning and screwing up their own lore numerous times in the past, but hey, for the most part I'm enjoying myself.

[Cressy]

Just because I feel the need to point this out...

So, back in the days of Pink-Cressy and her being forcedtold encouraged to do profiles, I remember numerous times where I would have a 'final' say and the person would gather, or their friends would willingly come to their rescue. Now, remember. GMs, for the most part, know what they are talking about guys. When they say, 'this isn't acceptable,' flaming a thread with praises on how -you-, their -FRIEND-, believe that they could play a character well and the like, it discourages GMs from wanting to do profiles to help you.

Anyways, that and the, "TIS IS A GRATE PROFEEL!" stuff should be whispered to them. If you feel the need to praise them, then do so in private.

/sagenod

[Jeff]

One thing I've taken up on doing in profiles/channels about things in profiles is trying to help people make iffy things acceptable, or if a person left something out entirely telling them about it (like if they forgot to add a history entirely or something). In this made up scenereo: Say Player Primus wants to make a highly eccentric character who proclaims themself the Emperor of Azeorth or something, but in truth has absolutely zero political authority. Rather than saying NO YOU GONNA BE HANGED (you wouldn't), I'd rather give reasons to the players as to why this is acceptable. Or if a friend/player I ovehear has something in their mind that they think is an iffy subject, or a doubtable thing, I'd be on it to help find lore support the idea (as long as it isn't like: IM KILJAEDENS GODFATHER).

[Azheron]

and some grunts that should be GUESTS. Heh.

*Whistles innocently*

DON'T STARE AT ME DAMNIT STOP IT STOP IT!

*Runs*

[Aruen]

Mwurh, I personally find it good to see such a topic arrive. And rather agree with you for 100% Rensin because it's the same reason I don't even comment in profiles. I read hardly any of them, unless it's from a friend which we talk about in-game at the same moment then. If you ask me, profiles should only be commented on by GMs. They are the ones who have the green light for admittance, not us as players. Who are we to tell what is right and wrong in a history/personality/whatever, apart from a possible time-line or age mix up?

Just my two cents. Or rather that of Azheron seeing I pick pocketed him. /nod

[SpiralLateralus]

I feel like the only people who should be commenting on profiles are GM's, and that GM's should offer actual advice or criticism other than "Please expand on x" (which I feel is often done out of laziness).

However, the exception to the rule can be when say, (this is an extreme example here) somebody makes a character profile claiming their character is the secret lovechild of Medivh and Jaina. Then I guess the community can come out to teach them about lore and help them correct any mistakes.

[Krent]

This has been a problem since the earliest days of COTH. Ever since certain individuals in the past have broken out their .pdf's of the Warcraft d20 books and proclaimed themselves to be "lore buffs", we've had this problem not only with profiles, but in game. I really do remember the days when /chat was non stop lore debate over the silliest of topics. Like if Blood Elves should be in Ratchet and if cigarettes existed. It was ugly.

What's worrying is that many players, even when they have the noblest of intentions, come forward to gang up on another player over very minuscule mistakes. Mistakes that might not even be an issue in the eyes of the content GM's, but players feel the need to bring forth anyway. It's like a virtual lynching as more and more players swarm the profile, everyone throwing in their "2 cents" and "constructive" criticism. The result usually causes a new addition to the community running away in terror, something we need to not happen if we want to continue to have an RP community.

It's a bad scene. There's a reason why this community is stereotyped as being pretentious, pedantic, overly anal and outright hostile at times. "Don't COTH on me bro!" wasn't something that was made up out of thin air.

My suggestion has always been for players to just...not comment on another person's profile. Ever. Even if you see something wrong with it, just let it be and have the GM's deal with it. They've been trained for this kind of thing and do it in a professional manner. One that's kind, constructive, and helpful.

Players don't. They tend to just come across like assholes, even when they're trying to help. It causes more harm than good. In my opinion, the only time when you should criticize someone elses work is when they specifically ask for assistance, which is what the Workshop forum is for. That's when people submit their work for the purpose of seeking help.

Just walking up to someone and dumping all your judgments on them is...well. Rude. How can you consider yourself to be a 'better' person so casually?

Are you going to say you were never a noob before? Are you going to say that you're a better artist, writer, RP'r, thinker, or all of the above? Are you going to claim that every character you've ever rolled ever has been a flawless work of perfection without any kind of lore disparity or mistake?

If you do...I feel really sorry for ya, because you're delusional.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't comment. Stay silent. Don't post. That's it. It's not a difficult task in my opinion. Doesn't require any special skills or talents. Just. Don't. Post. Don't throw in your 2 cents. Don't rush in to "help". Don't point out the minuscule mistakes. Don't get on someone's back for things you perceive to be wrong.

Just sit back and let the GM's do the job. Concentrate on your own RP in the meantime. If they ask for constructive criticism in the Workshop forum, then go ahead. Go wild with your 'help', but still remember to be kind and respectful about it. Otherwise, just...stay quiet.

I don't see what's so difficult about that.

[Wiseman]

As a newer player around here, I guess I'll share my experience, if it can contribute to the topic.

Not long after I posted my first profile of my Troll, I was smacked with a PM from another player filled with advice. I appreciated that someone was trying to help, but I felt a tad offended though I didn't let on to it. It wasn't much that they were trying to help, help is always nice and welcome, but it lacked any kind of respect and was more concerned with telling me what I did wrong than even asking if I wanted advice in the first place.

The other part that bothered me was that I knew that commenting on profiles had had some kind of trouble before, and I felt that this person was trying to skirt around it by sending me a PM.

Like I said, the help was appreciated, but it seemed to lack a certain amount of courtesy and felt very know-it-all.


Obviously this didn't deter me from playing but it was still worth note, at least in my opinion.

[Touchseed]

My suggestion has always been for players to just...not comment on another person's profile. Ever. Even if you see something wrong with it, just let it be and have the GM's deal with it. They've been trained for this kind of thing and do it in a professional manner. One that's kind, constructive, and helpful.

This is the best solution. I used to peruse profiles every now and then to put together new character ideas and scout out interesting characters. I'd resist the temptation to point out errors, probably not for the reason Krent mentioned, but I normally did not comment. There's a balance of creative and destructive comments to be made on any profile and buttering up players or smashing them down ain't good ideas. The GM body is able to walk the fine line between the two, and that seems to work so If you can resist commenting, you should.

[Kretol]

Perhaps we should institute a new field in the profile template. It could be as simple as:

Feedback/critique requested?: Yes/No/Yes (in PMs)

Other folks would then be obligated to not post if it is not requested, or feel free to comment if so (or send a PM).

[Beltharean]

I do believe that's probably the best option... Let the person decide whether or not they want feedback from players, that way everyone's happy.

*thumbs up*

I like it, can't speak for the others though.

[Bovel]

Perhaps we should institute a new field in the profile template. It could be as simple as:
Feedback/critique requested?: Yes/No/Yes (in PMs)
Other folks would then be obligated to not post if it is not requested, or feel free to comment if so (or send a PM).

This is an idea that might work. What I wonder is if the content GM's that run through profiles like and see a need of the player input, or is it just annoying? (What are the criteria you GM's have on what is a good or bad profile?)


When I read Krent's post I remembered something; when I first came here I remember GM's both in the chats in-game and on the forums 'reminding' us players to read up on profiles. If this has been a problem for a very long tiem, why would you then encourage players to even look at the profiles? Or am I missing something here?

[Kretol]

When I read Krent's post I remembered something; when I first came here I remember GM's both in the chats in-game and on the forums 'reminding' us players to read up on profiles. If this has been a problem for a very long tiem, why would you then encourage players to even look at the profiles? Or am I missing something here?

I believe I was one who initially encouraged players to help others with their profiles, providing constructive feedback as needed so as to lessen the load on GMs. However, it seems that this has morphed into something I didn't intend. Not everyone is capable of expressing themselves in a constructive manner; even GMs can have their moments when they say something they didn't mean, or phrase something a bit harsher than they intended. However, it's much better for a GM to take this responsibility than a player, although I know many players are indeed very helpful and can express themselves well.

Another change that would be simple, but likely effective, is for people that wish to continue assisting with profiles (which I truly think is for the better) to prefix their replies with critique with a statement that 'they are not a GM, nor can they make any sort of ruling, but...' and then continue with what they -believe- could help the profile. This is assuming the profile is obviously out of line.
For example: "I'm not a GM, nor am I strictly set on a ruling for this, but I believe that your history could use a bit more fleshing out. Your personality is only two sentences, and your history is three. GMs generally require ten lines at a bare minimum (on a 1024x768 screen), though they tend to encourage more. Regardless, I'm sure a GM will elaborate as necessary at their earliest convenience!"

For those that aren't so diplomatic, it'd undoubtedly be best for them not to comment.

[Bovel]

You got my vote Kretol.

[Aruen]

Perhaps we should institute a new field in the profile template. It could be as simple as:

Feedback/critique requested?: Yes/No/Yes (in PMs)

Other folks would then be obligated to not post if it is not requested, or feel free to comment if so (or send a PM).

Great option, you got my vote on that.