Profile Harassment/Discouraging your fellow player

[Harmonic]

You're probably all expecting the typical thing from me today, that I tell you not to do something. Rather than that, I'm going to bring to your attention something that's been bothering me as a GM and a player (Yes, I have a secret account. I've said this before).

In profiles, a -majority- of you try to help by telling people -what not to do-. You don't realize this, since some of you have been here a while, but this kind of thing can not only be intimidating, but hurtful. People do put work into profiles, and being over-critical and hopping all over one person's profile over pedantic stuff doesn't help them. Time and time again I see people say "Expand on this" on a perfectly good background or personality. I've seen people try to interpret rules in a wrong way. I've seen people do what's -my- major pet peeve, and try to push onto other profiles the "Fall of Lordaeron/Silvermoon/Draenor", whatever, which is something that every part of that race lived through.

The last part to me, would be like having me write a history of my life and having to include Desert Storm into it because we Americans lived through that war.

It's chasing people off. Especially new players. You guys get into these massive lore debates in game about how shit works... when half of you actually know what you're talking about.

I'm going to be blunt.

GM's are GM's. That's it. I know you guys wish to help out, but sometimes it's best to let -us- handle things and discuss them. We have the final word on stuff, and most of the time, -YES-, most of the time you guys are just plain confusing.



As for GMs. This applies to you as well. Re-read things before you post your decisions in profiles. Trial GMs, -escalate- things if you think there is a problem, don't just take the person aside yourself and try to give them a stern talkin' to. Those of you who have the ability to document what's going on, -do so- before attempting to take matters into your own hands. We've got to be cohesive in order to work with players, otherwise we come off as being unorganized, which is what this absolutely shows.

Don't get hung up on the small stuff, like including basic lore, such as the fall of whatever, the Lich King, and the creation of your faction. That's something everyone should -know-, not necessarily have in their profile. If the profile is -lacking- then by all -means- suggest including it, but don't force it down the throat of a player who has their bases covered, and a nice neat profile that makes sense.

Don't focus on what factions they've been apart of, unless it's something really outlandish (Black flight, Scourge, Burning Legion), but the faction they are currently a part of.




The best advice I can give: Treat our server as it is. A game. Not the finals for your doctorate.

[Kretol]

And remember, what Rensin speaks of is a reason that the phrase "Don't CotH on me, bro" can be accurate in a derogatory fashion.

[Bovel]

2 Cents.
I think the 'scolding' you gave me Rensin is a good rule of thumb which I try to follow. If -you- as a player read a profile and see something that wrong or what not, then -ONLY- comment if you have at least one constructive suggestion to add to it and the willingness to perhaps have a dialogue with the 'author'.

If you cannot, then just leave it be.

[PiesOfNub]

My honest opinion regarding the whole "major events" in profiles is that IF the character was affected enough by it, include it. IE: Blood Elves and the destruction of Sillymoon, Forsaken and... Being turned into Deaders, then include it.

That said, I do agree with Rensin regarding far-out lore events such as... Say a Human was in Arathi the time of Stormwind's collapse in the (First or second war?). I think the only reason for them to be upset would be if they had a family and/or loved ones in there. Not all this "My last beacon of hope was destroyed by my enemies! Forsooth! Woe and sadness bind me now like a blanket does a baby."

Now, I know I'm guilty of trying to "shove" a mention of the fall of what-have-you inside a profile, but at the very best a small mention. Hell, most of us a probably guilty for doing so!

Although, Rensin, I DO sort of disagree with your last line, though I do see what you're getting at. Personally, I see Roleplaying in WoW as not just a game, but more a hobby. A lot of us do, I guess. We research the lore and whatnot, to further our knowledge of the WoW universe - because we like to. That said, new players shouldn't feel obligated to read ALL of the WoWWiki before they even create their first character. Though, a tiny bit of prior knowledge doesn't hurt.

All I'm trying to say is - Profiles are profiles, and when a certain event affects almost everyone in different ways, perhaps try and include ONLY a little bit. And people, don't take WoW lore so seriously. We all joke about it (Lolvarian). Debates regarding lore, I find acceptable... But when they escalate into arguments, that's when you've got to stop. Nothing good ever comes from an argument. A lot of good comes from debates.

[Azheron]

This is kind of off-topic, but if there are two GMs that say different things, "You can't do that." And "You can do that.", what are we supposed to do? I've been in a situation like this myself, and it's very... uncomforting.

Also, I very rarely comment on profiles, and when I do, it's probably something -really- stupid, like a random idea which I regret afterwards, or then it's like "You can't be under the age of 18 as a human om nom."

[Xigo]

I think it's also a good idea to take into account whether or not the person in question is a peon or a grunt.

If someone is a peon, it is most likely their first time making a profile here. So don't come in all high and mighty and go 'LOOK AT THIS, THIS IS EVERYTHING YOU HAVE DONE WRONG!'. No. Come in saying something like 'Hey, good job so far, but here's a part of the lore you should consider reading to help your character', and copy/pasta said lore from WoWiki. If they read this lore, then chances are they will spot out the error, and fix it. But never force the lore upon them and flat out say 'this has happened differently. If we ever bring lore into our comments on a profile, it must be in the form of quotes from a trusted source (Such as WoWiki, or a GM). Never put your own two cents in there when it comes to lore.

If they have a metric shit-ton of grammar errors, assume English is not their first language or there's some other condition keeping them from writing at 100% and -help them-. Don't correct the whole thing for them, but point out what things they have misspelled or are grammatically incorrect.

It never fails to nag me when someone goes 'Your profile has grammar problems' and that's it. It's like...imagine your English teacher grading an essay, and just putting a grade on it. No comments. No corrections. No indication of what you did wrong. It's very annoying.

If you say the profile needs expanding, well give them suggestions on -how- to expand it. Don't just write 'The personality is short', instead write 'Here are some things you might consider adding to your personality', and suggest things that are not present in the profile currently.

Also, I do not believe non-GMs should ever comment on the lore in someone's profile. Ever. Because everyone has their own interpretation of the lore, and not everyone knows everything about it. This is why the Content GMs specialize on specific races. So that they can be the final judge when it comes to lore. They know their shit. So please, leave the lore to them.

And finally, rules. Please, never bring up the rules in a profile. Leave that to the GMs. It's not our job to enforce them, it's their job. And they do it a lot better than we do, IMO.

I've made these mistakes in the past. I intend on changing that.

Those are just my two cents.

[Arrillion]

I agree with the statement that if you correct something at least give examples of how it could/should be.

But I disagree with the fact that profile history seems to be able to ignore the major events. The vast majority of the characters iwould be affected by the third and the second war, and it would be okay to say he was somewhere else at the moment during the destruction of silvermoon for example, but it should at least be mentioned.

It's not that hard to search for a timeline on wowwiki and start to create a character history. It's also a major help for creating a character history as the third and second war are easy to write about. People should put some effort in their profiles, it not only makes them better but it also gives a feeling for the character and may very wel result in better roleplay.

Creating a character history is a fun, despite pretty lengthy process. I usually work as follows.
1: Look for the wowrpg timeline on wowwiki.
2: Decide where the character was born and where he spent considerable amounts of time, fighting, living, studying etc.
3: Try to uncover the history of those places, it seems the majority of places have atleast been raided or razed one time during the wars. Dalaran for example was razed two times.
4: Start writing.

[Xigo]

But I disagree with the fact that profile history seems to be able to ignore the major events. The vast majority of the characters iwould be affected by the third and the second war, and it would be okay to say he was somewhere else at the moment during the destruction of silvermoon for example, but it should at least be mentioned.

Well yeah, but we should leave that stuff to the GMs to worry about.

[Arrillion]

Of course, I only comment on profiles when they are in the workshop.

[Harmonic]

I think it's also a good idea to take into account whether or not the person in question is a peon or a grunt.

No. We were -all- peons once. Just because someone is a peon---DOES NOT mean they know less than you.

Guys, I know you won't agree with me here, and defend yourselves till you are blue in the face, or justify it somehow or another, but this has to stop. It's disrespectful to the players in question, and only makes people come off as know-it-all lore monkeys who have wow-wiki on the favorites tab.

That's great, but again, -please-, don't torch up people's profiles. Offer -helpful- suggestions, and try to refrain from trying to goad them into making huge changes.




And if two GMs conflict with what they say---- bring it up. That shows that someone down the line has -failed- to communicate, and that is a huge problem we have here as well.


Again, you guys are players. Let us ask for major changes to profiles. It's not your jobs to tell people what to do or make them feel unwelcome, which -is- happening.



Edit: To quote Kretol again, "Don't CoTH on me bro" is a mantra started by people that despise us for this reason. It's -not- always a good thing. You're getting too anal with things you've seen in your profiles in the past, that we've stated before.

But -every- profile is different. Every single one. It's starting to piss me off seeing people's -good- profiles being talked down about, or in, or whatever.

Quit being so pedantic about stuff.

[Arrillion]

How about the workshop, can we comment freely there?

[Xigo]

I think it's also a good idea to take into account whether or not the person in question is a peon or a grunt.

No. We were -all- peons once. Just because someone is a peon---DOES NOT mean they know less than you.

Didn't really mean it that way. I just meant it as in that chances are it's their first time making a profile, and that it's going to be hard on them. I meant to just work with a gentler hand than you would someone who already has a profile. Help them ease into it. Never meant to act like they're stupid or know less, that's just insulting to both parties.

But...eh. You're right.

[Harmonic]

I think it's also a good idea to take into account whether or not the person in question is a peon or a grunt.

No. We were -all- peons once. Just because someone is a peon---DOES NOT mean they know less than you.

Didn't really mean it that way. I just meant it as in that chances are it's their first time making a profile, and that it's going to be hard on them. I meant to just work with a gentler hand than you would someone who already has a profile. Help them ease into it. Never meant to act like they're stupid or know less, that's just insulting to both parties.

But...eh. You're right.

I miss-understood, sorry. It's my pet peeve for people to think they have more of an understanding than someone based on our forum ranks, as I'm of the opinion we have some peons that should be grunts, and some grunts that should be GUESTS. Heh.

But you're right. They are testing out this server, so it's better to be courtious and helpful, not shallow and pedantic. (Thank you Peter.)

Keep in mind when you play here guys, it's not about how much you know, it's not about how you boss people around... it's how you help others. That's actually how we pick GMs, along with other multiple factors.



Edit: I also have to say, that -too many- characters are so heart-brokenly affected by the "tragic events" of their races. At this point, you'd think they'd all start taking it in stride, instead of every single one of them being mentally deranged somehow because they lost their puppy in the fall of Silvermoon, somehow. I get that it's part of -some- characters, but cripes, not every single darn one has to worry -that- much over an event that didn't kill them almost six or seven years ago. At this point, you'd think they'd be more worried about -other- pressing issues, which can be overshadowed in a profile by the gobledy-guck sad crap about a city falling.

In other words, we get it. It happened. Everyone was affected. We don't need to re-hash it if you don't feel like including it in your profile. If you do, awesome. It's filler at this stage though. I dread reading Belf profiles because it's always like "Gee, how did this make them sad. Oh, okay, their parents died. Woo."


Do you see my point here?


Edit 2: I can't stop you from commeting anywhere. But it's gotta be the right way to do things. I don't like seeing a profile spammed with twenty players saying shit before a GM has a chance to review it. You guys -bump- it out of order when you do that, impeding your fellow players from recieving a word from a GM, who could -easily- approve it instead of going over something that isn't really needed.. something some of you tend to do.

If you want to say something that's -pivitol- to them being approved, such as something missing, grammar checks, or a nice suggestion, then sure. But if fifty other people are doing the same thing, you may wish to not be the one that goes on that bandwagon.

[Miah]

Ill be honest, Im pretty new to the whole place, been here a month now, and when i first put one up i was a little unnerved by it all. Im fine now cause I know people and such but at first when you don't know anyone and everyone is a critic its a little scary heh.

[therew]

As someone who left Coth in part of because of how Peons were treated, and other matters, I have used " Don't go Coth on me Bro" many of many of times. So now that I've returned I'm glad to see a topic like this coming from a full gm and even more so to see Kretol support on it.

As for the profile issue I think players should just butt out and let the Gm's handle it. I've had peon's come to me and ask me to read over their profile and help them. Thats the only time I comment on someone's profile, after they asked me to. I think the best way to help peon players who are struggling with lore, profile creation or rp in general is to pull them into your rp. Become friends with them and if they want to step up their game to be like yours, they will ask you to help them.

If anything let the Gms comment on it first. If nothing less.

As for the traumatic issue thing, it will be all based on how the character was affected and how he thinks about it. Lets take an elf from Silvermoon.

If he thinks " Arthas took OUR families from US" He more likely to handle it better than an elf that thinks of it as " He took MY family from ME" They could have experienced the exact same thing, but just because they think of it differently allows them to handle it differently. No one but the player playing the character has the right to comment on how someone has their character react to something. Thats my personal thought at least. The mind is a crazy thing, there been a case where a woman became paralyzed for no reason other than because she just didn't want to go home. (btw, she got better. After a heart to heart with her family I think)