The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[flammos200]

...Now, my understanding of the concept of a Prestige Class is that of specialization. I.E. Focusing on some aspect and mastering it. For instance, a Demon Hunter masters the art of fighting against Fel. But no one teaches a Demon Hunter how to fight Human Paladins, nor Riflemen, nor anyone else that isn't Fel-based.

Thus, to my view of things, when fighting Fel-based enemies, the Demon Hunter would be at an advantage. But when not, they're just like anyone else.

Similarly, when you take a Druid/Archdruid/Elven Ranger/Wilderness Stalker out of the forest/wilds and put them into a city or in an urban combat zone, they will be far less effective than in the midst of nature.

I believe that people are leaning far too much on 'Who's more powerful than who?', which is a useless question that only provokes contests of superiority and conflict, instead of working together to forge a storyline.

What people are going too little on, in my opinion, is the individual abilities of classes. It's not 'My Warden will beat your Warrior in an arm-wrestling match.', instead being. 'My Warden can split throwing knives in mid-air, as they fly for your Warrior. Naturally, your Warrior can hope for the best and raise his shield to defend against it, if he's lucky or fast enough.'.

It is my firm stance that Prestige Classes are not to be treated any differently OOC-ly from normal characters. An Archmage and a Mage alike can toss spells at a Warrior, which will reflect them back at the agressors with his shield, with equal efficiency, if the shieldbearer has enough skill and luck to do so.

Allow Prestige Classes to be an IC thing. Don't put them in a heirarchy of 'Who's better than who' on an OOC level. Because it brings us to the age-old question of 'Do Levels matter in RP?', which only morphs into 'Do Tiers matter in RP?'.

Prestiges get awesome IC abilities and training. Show that through emotes. Show that through a character's personality changes. Show it through the way they handle situations. But for Light's sake, don't show it through some cold, blunt and dehumanizing heirarchy of tiers.

This system, as it stands, in my opinion, defeats its own purpose. It is stated that it tries to place focus on Character Development. Instead of doing so, it imposes a sort of rank system in which the focus is Power.

I've always thought that CoTH was based on equality. Prestige Classes were never 'Better' than normal Classes in my opinion. Instead, they were 'Special' and 'Different', because they got abilities that other classes didn't. That did not make them better. That did not make them worse. Instead, it added diversity, and storyline opportunity, and -not- a sense of superiority.

"And if perchance I have offended
Think but this and all is mended:
We'd as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you'll change your mind."

And yes, the quote deserved being repeated. Tim Minchin is a genius.

[MrBubbles]

Grakor doesn't want a prestige system. You can not want it all you want, but it's needed. It really really is.

Now that we've had prestiges, they really can't be done without.

It's just that that's not really true, is the thing.

Prestige titles are not inherently necessary to the server. Conquest of the Horde has survived in days of yore without them, and there is no reason to suggest now they cannot be done without.

Looking objectively from some points of view, it could even be said that the system(s) have done more harm than good to the server as a whole.

[Aphetoros]

What I pretty much switched it to is that most of the time, a tier 2 > tier 1. Tier 3 > Tier 2. Tier 4 > Tier 3. Tier 5 > Tier 4.

Oops?

It's just that that's not really true, is the thing.

Prestige titles are not inherently necessary to the server. Conquest of the Horde has survived in days of yore without them, and there is no reason to suggest now they cannot be done without.

Looking objectively from some points of view, it could even be said that the system(s) have done more harm than good to the server as a whole.

IMHO we need some form of extended character development. Prestiges makes the most sense.

edit: OR

Bear with me here. Change power to trust, or if that would be too favoritism-ie, then make it time. They are ranked by how hard it is to achieve said rank and the time it takes, which make sense. Get rid of power levels entirely...?

I just read Flammos's post.

[Beltharean]

If a warrior obtains the tier two status, they should be able to take on one tier two prestige character; Just because the other player has a fancy title doesn't mean that the tier two warrior is any weaker, or put any less work into obtaining that position. Basically what I'm saying is, if a tier two warrior and a let's say... Tier two gladiator go toe to toe, they should be equally matched; Or if a tier three Shaman fights a tier two Runemaster, The shaman should win the battle. Just because the latter has a different name than the first doesn't mean that they're better than the first, especially in the shaman/Runemaster case where by your system the lower "level" prestige would beat the shaman who's invested more time into the character.

At least, that's how I interpreted the explanation of the system.

[Reese]

IMHO we need some form of extended character development. Prestiges makes the most sense.

Typo, but this. One of my characters is in a horrible predicament and... well... he can't develop as a character... really.

[MrBubbles]

One of my characters is in a horrible predicament and... well... he can't develop as a character... really.

If you can honestly find no way of adding depth and development to a character without increasing their level of power or prestige, you're not looking hard enough.

[Reese]

If you can honestly find no way of adding depth and development to a character without increasing their level of power or prestige, you're not looking hard enough.

Not power or influence so much as personality and reclusiveness. I formed a story based on what I thought he'd do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now i've gone and incited a debate/argument. e.e

[Jeff]

I still stand by people saying X class is better than Y class is, 100% of the time, a bad/stupid idea. IDK if it's a special class, or a regular class. Nore do we don't need a level system, we never needed/had one enforced.

[muhaha8]

IMHO, prestiges =/= power. They never should. It's a character thing. One is to go out, and change the way they view the world. Say, for example, your average warrior. He looks out and sees the battlefield. He doesn't like the sight, and likely doesn't want to fight. Along comes your Commander prestige. This guy thought the same way as your average warrior does currently. He was a defeatist. But, he's taught himself to inspire charisma in his men. IC personality devwlopment right there. Your average warrior is now prepared to fight the entirety of the Legion.

Don't forget Spirit Walkers, as another example. Any old Shaman, who has experienced the 30 days of dreams, can become one. And I mean any. Bloody, battle-hardened Shaman, for example. He is hit with the dreams. Through struggling to harness his newfound abilities, he becomes likely inherently peaceful. There's your personality and character development, again.

In short, prestiges are only about power, if you -make- them about power.

[Rigley]

If you can honestly find no way of adding depth and development to a character without increasing their level of power or prestige, you're not looking hard enough.

Not power or influence so much as personality and reclusiveness. I formed a story based on what I thought he'd do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now i've gone and incited a debate/argument. e.e

Well, the IC forum is for stories, or such. There are tons of people who develop characters through stories without working towards a prestige, or anything really in terms of advancement of power or wealth. If your looking to have a training thread, you can do that as well without shooting for any prestige- just someone honing their skills on their own behalf, without need of any titles or sommat.

I'm also of the belief that we shouldn't enforce any bonuses on prestiges, though- Mostly because I feel it would be a bit daunting for a new player to come to the server, having to start fresh with so many other characters already with a leg up on him, if he were to participate in any combat. I see why people like bonuses and by all means I don't think your specifically wrong for wanting them, but I personally preferred the initial scape of the prestiges which had a scarce few people taking and completing them, not one in which many characters are many different varying ranks above the average character.



...Bah. I didn't mean to go to a tangent. I apologize.

[Reese]

IMHO, prestiges =/= power. They never should. It's a character thing. One is to go out, and change the way they view the world. Say, for example, your average warrior. He looks out and sees the battlefield. He doesn't like the sight, and likely doesn't want to fight. Along comes your Commander prestige. This guy thought the same way as your average warrior does currently. He was a defeatist. But, he's taught himself to inspire charisma in his men. IC personality devwlopment right there. Your average warrior is now prepared to fight the entirety of the Legion.

Don't forget Spirit Walkers, as another example. Any old Shaman, who has experienced the 30 days of dreams, can become one. And I mean any. Bloody, battle-hardened Shaman, for example. He is hit with the dreams. Through struggling to harness his newfound abilities, he becomes likely inherently peaceful. There's your personality and character development, again.

In short, prestiges are only about power, if you -make- them about power.

Naturally someone explains it better than I do. The fisticuffs battle begins with me struck in the face!

[muhaha8]

... And I one-up you without actually having tried, Reese. Kudos to me.

Temporary derailment, folks. We are now back on track.

I stand by my last post.

[Beltharean]

I do agree with the fact that power shouldn't be the reason one goes for a prestige (if it was for me, I wouldn't have turned being a Primal down on the old, OLD system when by the time it was accepted it wouldn't have really fit...), but honestly it's an added plus. Kaz is a Gladiator in all reality to show how isolated he's become as a person; If he gets additional roll bonuses for being a master of every single weapon on the planet, then that's fine by me (exaggerating a bit there, but you get the point). Any who, I don't see a problem with prestige characters getting additional bonuses in a fight. I -hope- that Fala'thorei won't get beat by a mouthy Blood Elf rogue in a bar, or that Navren will get his ass handed to him by -a- warlock that doesn't like what he stands for.

[Loxmardin]

And even then, people need to keep in mind that certain classes are more adept at fighting under certain conditions and in certain arenas. Just because you are playing a Tier 3 character doesn't mean you should automatically tip the scales in your favour in any given situation against Tier 1 or 2.

Know your class, as well. It's important to remember that your number does not define you in all situations.

Yes, that's right, I'm quoting myself. What'chu gun' do 'bout it?

A Tier 2 Warrior against a Tier 2 Gladiator? They are, power-wise, on the same level. But, depending on where they're facing eachother, you would tip the scales in the favour of one or the other. A Gladiator is basically a Warrior whose specialization lies in fighting someone in a closed off arena using certain tactics and techniques. A very specialized Warrior, in the way that he restricts many parts of his fighting style to being able to fight in a certain way and under certain circumstances.

Don't get too hung up on the number of the Tier.

Know the class.

Because, to be honest, this is something people should be keeping in mind with or without Tier prestige classes. A Rogue would probably be pretty awkward in a Cage Fight against a brawling character class. Such as a Warrior, for instance. But if a Rogue could face the same Warrior in an entirely different arena... Say, any open area in the forest?

[Aphetoros]

I think this is something that should be included in the actual prestige post. (y'know the one that GMs make) if this gets through.