The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[Xigo]

Look. I don't think many of us who actually -have- prestige characters actually did it so we could get a nifty bonus, we got it so we could RP something special.

For Arianna? I made her an Archmage because I wanted to make an Archmage. I never really cared about whether or not I got some +5s to fights or anything, though I do enjoy people acknowledging that she -is- an Archmage.

For Ara'Gazhi? I know he's not a prestige class, but I made him because I wanted to play a Doom Guard. I didn't want to roflstomp everyone on the server. I don't want to go around shoving his weight about. Heck, I barely ever want to -fight- with him. When I do enter a roll fight, I will often ask the other person 'How much of a bonus do you think a Doom Guard should receive?'.

(Speaking of him, I've made it a personal rule of thumb for him to never start the fight, unless he's really antagonized)

Regardless. I... just kinda wish we went back to the old 'prestige' system. And we stopped doing these damn roll fights in PvP. Because it downplays characters so much. I know I'm not out to fight with my two characters, but really, it irks me when a character loses a situation they really, really should have done better in. I don't want to sound like some sort of 'power gamer' when it comes to prestiges, but it is very annoying to me when Ara'Gazhi steps into a fight with a gnomish warlock who's throwing fel flames at him (and doing damage), and I have no idea how to really roleplay Ara -losing- to this gnome because he's, you know, supposed to be stupidly resistant to fel magic (and magic in general!)

I've rambled on too much.

I seriously think people need to understand their characters can lose in certain situations. That they can be harmed. I also think people need to stop with throwing out character warnings every two seconds. Every time I enter a fight these days, I receive a bloody character warning. Why can't we let others decide if their characters should live or die? Why does it always have to be DEATH or nothing? We're so quick to end someone else's creation. Why can't a retreat simply be that, a retreat? Why must there be rolls involved?

Why must there be rolls involved in everything?

Why can't we just -trust fight-, and roleplay our characters in such a way that they're not 'masters of everything'. Make it so that if your character's fighting a trained gladiator in an arena, you get your rear handed to you because it's -his/her- turf. If you're facing an archmage in a magical duel, you acknowledge that, hey, they're an archmage, their spells are powerful. If you're facing a Doom Guard in a melee fight, you acknowledge its strength, and stop having its blade only 'chop into your shoulder'.

Know the strengths -and- weaknesses of your character. Perhaps write them down somewhere. Try doing this. For every strength, a weakness. Because if we all know when to say 'my character should lose in this situation' and 'we don't really need to kill eachother's characters here', then things would be great, IMO! If we didn't have to rely on dice for fights (save PvE fights, because those can be a nightmare), that'd just... be great.

... But it just seems we're too attached to dice.

If we moved to trust fights more, and stopped dwelling on the bonuses a character should receive, then perhaps a 'prestige system' would work. Speaking of which.

It seems people tend to believe 'prestige' is more powerful than your average character. It's not. It's just a variant class. The time and effort put into one is acknowledged in roll fights. But really, they're just people who specialize in an area. Like an Arch Mage won't be doing -anything- acrobatic or physical, having put so much time into their magical training. Or a Gladiator, which is -really- just a very large alteration to someone's fighting style which allows them to excel with exotic weaponry (and in arenas, of course). And even the Lightslayer, who is just someone who's really damn good at killing Light users. Then there's the Assassin, who... assassinates people, and isn't a bloody ninja when it comes to fighting just because 'she's an assassin'.

I could go on, I guess. I think you guys get the picture.

tl;dr, Prestiges shouldn't be ultra powerful warriors who can smack aside others with a whim. They should just be.. opportunities to roleplay something different, which should be acknowledged when they enter a situation they excel/are terrible at. To make an example,I -know- Arianna would never win in a physical fight. Never, ever, ever, ever. I don't even pretend she could. But roll fights make it so that she could, because everything needs to be -fair-. Let's stop complaining. Let's stop with the whole 'all stats must be equal to make the fight proper'. Just roleplay your damn character correctly. Understand what he/she can and cannot do. And let others worry about how their characters do in a certain situation. Maybe even talk about it before the fight itself.

Also keep in mind. Fights don't have to be the death.

EDIT: To... back up a little on what I said here. The 'tier threes' of that most recent system are the only prestiges that could really be considered 'generally more powerful than the average character'. Which... was the reason they were 'tier three'. So I suppose some characters, such as Demon Hunters and Mountain Kings and Far Seers, will be stronger than others, even if they are most specialized (if only because they're considered 'heros, imo'). But still. You guys get my points made, hopefully. :P

[Wuvvums]

I find rolls rather frustrating too, if only because I've gotten into situations relevant to my character's specialization, and couldn't do a damn thing about it because I only had two chances to roll and each roll was a bunk. Maybe that's just me, but I do feel like everything your character has for skills, insights and actions doesn't contribute to the situation as much as a randomized roll does.

[muhaha8]

On roll fights...

Everything I think about them has already been said. I prefer to -not- leave whether or not my Knight, my Warlock, my Old God Priest, my Paladins, my Druids, my Hunters, whatever, do well in a situation that they would have an advantage in to the f***ing dice gods. Why shouldn't I be allowed to decide for myself? I mean, my Fel Blood-powered Warlock can't beat your average, weakling mage in a fight, because I fail a few rolls. Yet, my Old God Priest kicks the ass of a Paladin in hand-to-hand combat? This is why I prefer trust fighting. If I thought, however, that I could actually trust someone to RP their warrior as being succeptable to Fel Fire, even though he's in plate mail, I'd be more inclined to do trust fights than I already do. It comes down to whether or not someone can actually judge how well their character would do in X situation. Which, currently, people are all-too-willing to let that be decided by rolls.

I rest my case. Take your character into your own damn hands.

[McKnighter]

I pretty much agree to the last three posts here.


I often hate dice fights, however, they're a guilty pleasure as well. The thrill of putting your character on the line gets my heart racing and makes me want to stand up and cheer when the character does win a battle, be it death or not. That's not creepy, right?


However, with many of my characters, they have weaknesses that are near impossible to factor into the dice, besides adding a -40 to it, or what have you. Most of my characters cannot stand toe-to-toe with others in a physical fight. However, I bet if I beat you with my staff enough, I could roll a crit. It shouldn't be that way.

For all the glory and power that Redis holds as a Necromancer, all it takes is for someone to bypass his minions, knock down his anti-magical/physical shield (depending on what attacks you use, and which one he has up), and just hammer away. He'll go down quickly if he can't recover and protect him. But again, if I do good on my rolls, he'll be able to tank a posse of 12 people. He might've died in the end.. But.. True story.

It's also annoying when there's one person trying to stand up to a pack of ghouls and Redis.. And the undead forget how to fight because of rolls. Just annoying, IMO.



So, yes. I'm all for trust fighting. I love it, when it is done right. I only went for a prestige because I wanted to be a Necromancer who could control undead! That's it! And with this prestige system, it'll become a T1, open to everyone... So Redis can finally begin teaching others Necromancy and have a little cult going on. >:B

Going to be awesome, if this gets approved.

[Wuvvums]

Perhaps it does go to show though that not all prestiges are going to be worried about roll fights or how well they'd do against a certain character in combat. Aside from a fight with an imp, I really haven't done a lot of PvP with my prestige, instead I've been focusing on PvE and rping her engineering, trying to figure out how many different mechanisms she could cram onto herself at once. It's different for everyone.

[Nostra]

Spoiler:

...Now, my understanding of the concept of a Prestige Class is that of specialization. I.E. Focusing on some aspect and mastering it. For instance, a Demon Hunter masters the art of fighting against Fel. But no one teaches a Demon Hunter how to fight Human Paladins, nor Riflemen, nor anyone else that isn't Fel-based.

Thus, to my view of things, when fighting Fel-based enemies, the Demon Hunter would be at an advantage. But when not, they're just like anyone else.

Similarly, when you take a Druid/Archdruid/Elven Ranger/Wilderness Stalker out of the forest/wilds and put them into a city or in an urban combat zone, they will be far less effective than in the midst of nature.

I believe that people are leaning far too much on 'Who's more powerful than who?', which is a useless question that only provokes contests of superiority and conflict, instead of working together to forge a storyline.

What people are going too little on, in my opinion, is the individual abilities of classes. It's not 'My Warden will beat your Warrior in an arm-wrestling match.', instead being. 'My Warden can split throwing knives in mid-air, as they fly for your Warrior. Naturally, your Warrior can hope for the best and raise his shield to defend against it, if he's lucky or fast enough.'.

It is my firm stance that Prestige Classes are not to be treated any differently OOC-ly from normal characters. An Archmage and a Mage alike can toss spells at a Warrior, which will reflect them back at the agressors with his shield, with equal efficiency, if the shieldbearer has enough skill and luck to do so.

Allow Prestige Classes to be an IC thing. Don't put them in a heirarchy of 'Who's better than who' on an OOC level. Because it brings us to the age-old question of 'Do Levels matter in RP?', which only morphs into 'Do Tiers matter in RP?'.

Prestiges get awesome IC abilities and training. Show that through emotes. Show that through a character's personality changes. Show it through the way they handle situations. But for Light's sake, don't show it through some cold, blunt and dehumanizing heirarchy of tiers.

This system, as it stands, in my opinion, defeats its own purpose. It is stated that it tries to place focus on Character Development. Instead of doing so, it imposes a sort of rank system in which the focus is Power.

I've always thought that CoTH was based on equality. Prestige Classes were never 'Better' than normal Classes in my opinion. Instead, they were 'Special' and 'Different', because they got abilities that other classes didn't. That did not make them better. That did not make them worse. Instead, it added diversity, and storyline opportunity, and -not- a sense of superiority.

"And if perchance I have offended
Think but this and all is mended:
We'd as well be 10 minutes back in time,
For all the chance you'll change your mind."

And yes, the quote deserved being repeated. Tim Minchin is a genius.

I have to say that I very much agree with this (and the others on the last page saying similar stuff, hehe), and it's something I've mentioned in the prestige discussions on the GM forums. I think a lot of people would agree that we do not need more systems and rules on CotH, what I hope to see is us simplifying and focusing on the RP, prestiges shouldn't be anything but spice on our delicious RP.

I can't speak for anyone else but I know I've taken this thread and all that've been said into account when thinking about prestiges, it has defintely influenced my opinion. However, since this is Brutal's topic it might be best if we return to discussing his Prestige system and not prestiges in general, we could have another topic for that, hehe.

[Gaiaboy10]

I can't say I agree with you there. I always saw prestiges as more powerful than the base classes. They DO diversify RP, but they're supposed to be more powerful. I disagree completely with the "archmage vs mage" comment. A warrior could have a shot at deflecting a normal mage's spells, but against an Archmage he'd stand little to no chance. Prestiges are there to be stronger than the other classes. The fact is that most RPers want more power than is given to them to start with. Prestiges are the solution to that longing for more power. If they're not stronger or more effective in combat than the basic classes, they have no point in being there.

[Hawk]

Prestiges shouldn't be ultra powerful warriors who can smack aside others with a whim. They should just be.. opportunities to roleplay something different,

This I agree and disagree with. For the most part, I agree with it. But it doesn't matter whether the D20 or whatever says they're variant classes: On CotH, Prestige Classes do have an edge over a base class. I don't really know why people have been arguing it, because it's how we've made them on our server. When they were originally opened WAAAAY back they were created with the intent of spicing up RP, and the buffs were a reward for it. There were/are people who take it just for power. You can't deny it. Hell, I'll be blunt: I took Tzekel's for power. I was sick of getting my arse handed to me in roll fights, and he was my very first Prestige. But Mokaku's and Draknir's (before I retconned Drak's), they -were- for sake of RP and writing, and I managed to get a good 50 or 60 pages with Mokaku's storyline, and I really felt like I earned it.

But with that being said, Prestige Classes certainly do not automatically mean you'll win. If I got into a fight with a Prestige Class and I was Category 2, I would expect some appropriate bonuses because, like I said, we've created the Prestige System where they have an edge over your normal guy. In the D20 they don't, but they are here. But if someone suggested I got a +6 to HP and +35 to rolls, I'd NEVER fight with those bonuses if I hadn't deserved them. Never in a century. You need to make a compromise with the player you're fighting without sounding like a power-hungry jerk, which isn't always easy. And if they choose to bail out, just let them do it. Don't start yelling "Dude that was stupid" because it's their free choice - not yours.

If people want their Prestige Class for power and it creates roleplay... then who cares? If they're not trying to enforce an insta-victory policy on everyone who looks at them the wrong way, use it for metagaming, or created it with the intent just to defeat all their enemies... then I don't see the problem. At the end of the day, roleplay is created, which is why this server even exists to begin with.


But going back onto Brutal's system - honestly? I like it. Not gonna lie, I like it. May want to lower the amount of power you get from it, but other than that it looks good. I just want to say though:

Not even the GMs know if the system is coming back.

We (and probably myself) have said "We have our own system" etc, but we never gave a 100% guarantee that it would be returning at all. I'm just saying it to everyone so no one gets their hopes up.

[Wuvvums]

If they're not stronger or more effective in combat than the basic classes, they have no point in being there.

Would you say that's the case for a techno-mage? They're a category II prestige in the older system. There were even a handful of prestiges that didn't seem to warrant higher power, so we made them available without training. Those prestiges included buccaneer, sapper, witch doctor, hexer, duelist and so on.

Prestiges are supposed to be about specialization. Even dungeons and dragons had this concept. When I was taking a bardic prestige class in that D20, it didn't inherently make the character more powerful, it just meant the focus was on spellcasting for my bard. I think the only difference here is that the prestige is a D20 concept, and we're applying it to people that have no D20 levels on coth. I would say that a level 20 gladiator and a level 20 warrior would be on the same par of skill, but have different abilities because of their focus.


That aside it's a bit silly to say that there's no point in going for a prestige if they don't get to be more powerful than the base classes. I've actually been trying to avoid that in roll fights with my own prestige, and I still manage to have her on par with a normal character. Miah also seems to downplay her prestige character quite a bit in terms of power, I am guessing because she wanted to play a demon more than just beat people around all day.

Granted there are definitely some combat prestiges, I'm just trying to say that not all of us simply wanted a PVP/PVE edge.

[Gaiaboy10]

I know not everyone wants to be stronger from it, and I can respect that. But I can't agree with people saying that prestiges like Demon Hunter or Archmage are no stronger than a base class.

If prestige titles like that meant you were a hyped up version of something common, they'd hold no sway in lore. An Archmage's frostbolt is equal to three normal mage's frostbolts. It's just not right to say they're not stronger. A Templar could match a Paladin in close combat, and go toe to toe with a Priest in magic. Demon Hunters are indeed trained to fight beings of fel, and they're near unstoppable when doing so. But that doesn't mean they lack everywhere else. If my Paladin were to face a Demon Hunter, he'd be demolished. I can say the same of my mage.

I wanted to get the Templar prestige simply because I'd enjoy RPing one. I rarely actually fight on the char I wanted it with. I can understand a prestige being there for RP and not being better at fighting. Like you pointed out with Buccaneer. I'd assume they'd be better at fighting if they're on a boat where as some one else might have trouble balancing with the sway of the water. But to say an Archmage isn't any better than a normal mage? No, just no.

[Aphetoros]

If you're facing a Doom Guard in a melee fight, you acknowledge its strength, and stop having its blade only 'chop into your shoulder'.

I agree with this. I've seen people shrug off your attacks sometimes, and like the other day Astus only didn't die from your attack because... he's undead. Ara tore through his torso, and Astus barely escaped with that teleport.

People who know me, know that Astus has died numerous times. He's a prestige. I don't take Astus's prestige to be more powerful, I want his story to continue in his quest for lichdom (which in this system is possible :3) and at least with the current ideals we have on the server, it won't happen because it is too powerful. Liches are powerful, yes. A lesser lich (which is what all the random unnamed liches are you see all around in northrend) but they are on par with an Archmage in power. Being a lich does not make you powerful, the lich is only as powerful as the person who became it. (Which is usually a powerful person just because it's so hard to do.) But I don't want to be a lich for power. If I were playing as a lich, I can probably tell you I wouldn't be running around killing people randomly or swarming towns with the damned. In fact, I'd only be RPing Astus studying and getting interrupted by people, or walking around looking for artifacts or books, unless people wanted him for storylines. Even he isn't becoming a lich for power, he wants to be a lich for the sheer fact that it's hard to kill you. He doesn't want to die.

Anyway. Despite the off-topic, I needed to say that.

[Azheron]

This sounds like a great system. I feel like CoTH is missing a system that can make your characters evolve and be more powerful.

[DaveM]

People will either have good intentions...

In which case, even in a roll fight, the gnome warlock will recognise he should get huge penalties for throwing fel fire at a doom guard.

Or they're not.

In which case, the same gnome you fight in a 'trust' battle will decide he's too small to ever be hit by that huge blade or unstable magic.


Either strong definitions of what the classes specifically get, or demote them to mainly roleplay variants. Trust and roll ain't the problem.

[Sadron]

I always thought that to take on a prestige, you needed to get permission and write up a training storyline was there so that the prestige characters were played correctly. By correctly I mean, with respect to the community and with the appropriate abilities and power. We had to submit a template with what abilities our character would receive, and how it would affect other characters. That's why we have to be a grunt to be bumped to 80, or to have taken on a prestige at all. Perhaps over time is has become about rolls and power and whatnot, but I still agree that the prestige system should be more about RP, and advancing your character. This system does that.

On the topic of power, I think we should take common sense when we think about this. Not all core classes, prestige classes or whatever they are classes, are going to be equal. If you are a tier three Necromancer, and you are fighting a Tier three High Divinist, the High Divinist could have a slight advantage because the light has an advantage over Undead. While the characters are evenly matched in terms of skill, the abilities they wield could have advantages and disadvantages against one another. This was reflected in WoW itself, with certain classes being able to tear through certain classes, and then be decimated by others. A tier three Demon Hunter will be powerful against fel users, and demons, and probably magic users as well; however they might be at a disadvantage against a tier three rogue, because of their grayed vision. Fel, undeath, and (I think) arcane magic stand out in their vision. It might be harder to see the rogue, especially in the heat of fast paced combat.

As for roll combat, I dislike it. Trust combat allows me to think how would my character respond to this? What are my character's capacities? Can they dodge this attack? Are they off guard right now? Trust combat allows me to factor in all the things that might work for and against my character, and decide how they would be able to react. Whereas roll combat leaves everything up to chance.

It's important to note that for my examples, I said might. I am in no way an expert on these classes, circumstances are always different, but that's what makes RP fun. These are my opinions. Don't flame me. ;w;

TL;DR: Prestige systems should be about RP and character development. Classes and characters have strengths and flaws, and that should factor into combat. Trust combat allows you to think of what your character can and cannot do.

I like this prestige system. I know it's a work in progress and that there would certainly need to be limits and bugs need to be worked in and out respectively. But Sadron see potential... Sadron do...

[Terant]

I think that yesterday's mass necromancer vs. good guys fight is a good example of how trust fighting is often the best option.

There were a -lot- of people. Many of them were prestiges. Not a single person complained or caused drama. Everyone reacted realistically.

I think a lot of this argument stems from the natural distrust we all seem to have in people. But c'mon! This is CotH! We are all great roleplayers and we can all handle playing characters that are more powerful than average!