The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[BountyHunter]

In my opinion, one of the shining qualities of this system is what Miah said, the advancement. Instead of going straight from nothing to say, a Demon Hunter, with the use of a storyline, now one has to go through three pieces of advancement from Tier 1 to Tier 2 to finally Tier 3. Not only does this help with Character Development, as the aim is, but it also gives time for the character themselves to experience much in the world and just maybe think that their decision might not be the best.

This, even if we use this system or not, should be kept. The fact that you could become a Tier 3 Warrior and fight (quite) evenly with a Demon Hunter is a great idea too.

[Duraza]

I've always been ambivalent to the prestige systems, never having any real problems with how any of them worked so far (I suppose I don't think much further into it than what's presented as what I have to do to develop my character in the way that I want). To me, this looks like something that could become something good or end up another prestige system to be replaced in the long run.

Keeping that in mind, I think a big thing a lot of us should first think about is what flaws we might find in the system. Stating you like it is good... But then again some of us might simply like it because it provides an optional fix so we can once again obtain prestige classes. The same thing happened when we were waiting for the last system to come up, the feeling of just wanting 'something' to happen. What ended up happening? Many said 'hooray' and jumped on the bandwagon and now we have a second system that is potentially being scrapped.

Keeping this all in mind I at the moment have one direct problem with this system that I cannot ignore. The power system as it is currently. For me its off-putting because:

1.) Many Prestige classes are not meant to be more powerful than normal classes or even become more powerful than normal classes. They are variants, specialized classes with specialized powers. Why should any one Gladiator be able to advance to the fifth tier and be able to take on Demon Hunters, Dragonsworn, and the like because they have lower tiers? What makes a Dead Shot become fifth tier? Surely you cannot exceed almost perfect shooting (unless there was such a thing as 'almost perfecter' shooting)?

For some classes I just feel the need to achieve higher tiers doesn't need to exist. An apothecary shouldn't need to go through a system to make more advanced potions. In fact, if you're a prestige Apothecary then I don't see what's stopping you from the start at making anything other than ingredients. The -player- is the limit to the power here. I'd hate to see someone go 'Your apothecary can't make potion X because I waited until getting Tier five to learn potion X'. I shouldn't have to write a story post in order to obtain use to potion X or Y and Z for that matter.

2.) The way you describe the tiers.

the Epic Felsworn is very able to take on six to seven tier one characters, but a single demon hunter will most likely kill them with only exhausting half or so of their power

I find this a truly great imbalance of power. It is good that the Demon Hunter is still able to take down the Felsworn. But something about a player having a single character able to take down seven normal characters seems excessive. Perhaps its simply my opinion but it doesn't sit well with me. I don't know, maybe I think that with it brings a more 'power-centric' mode of playing. Sure, not everyone can be a Tier five because it takes so long to get there... But what happens when you're Tier 2 gets beaten by a tier 4? I'm sure going to work my way up to being tier 4 so I can get back at him.

3.) This system makes me feel as if my Rp is about my character. It all becomes so self-centered. Character development through prestige. Depth through prestige. There are other ways to reach depth and development out of prestige. For example, roleplaying with other players. My CoTH experience shouldn't be about my intense training posts with Character F. In fact, my intense training posts with Character F should be mainly so I can get out and enhance the roleplaying experience for other players. Not simply flesh out my own character. If you want to do that, just write a story to begin with.

(At the moment my sleep-deprivation is starting to kick in so excuse me, I know I've forgotten some comments in this long essay of a post but I'll just drive it to this last point and post later if I think of more).

I would infinitely prefer this system more of we changed 'power' to 'political power' or something along those lines. My Dead Shot isn't becoming more powerful, simply more well known, more feared, more prestigious. To increase the grandeur of a character through hard work, the influence that they can wield within the player community. The Tier 5 Demon Hunter is known for remarkable feats by most in Kalmidor. The Tier 5 Assassin is feared for the amount of people he's reportedly slain without a fight. The Tier 5 Death Knight is known as a true champion of the Ebon Blade, respected for feats of heroics.

Instead of players having to respect a character that is physically more powerful that player is socially or politically more powerful and that can be just as good if not better. No one would dare fight the Tier Five Felsworn just because of the reputation that Felsworn has built as a killing machine. Those who do go with swords shaking.

I know that one argument that might pop up is 'well, we can't decide how a player reacts to your character.' Aren't we already trying to do so with actual physical power as it is? If I can say my character is going to kill yours in a fight without effort why not make the small swap and say your character is going to be scared to death of mine?

[Aphetoros]

I think the above post is great and thought out very well. ONe thing that didn't sit well with me win I read the first post was the references to power. I think power is, as Duraza said, "The -player- is the limit to the power here." And I agree. Some classes, yes, it makes sense. For example a Fel-sworn increases with power as she increases in the ranks because she gains more mutations and knowledge. But as with all the -others-. I don't think it's fair to say that, "Character X can take down seven tier 1 characters because she's a Y." I believe we should do the political power, or not at all comparing it to how many players one can take down.

That seems like it'd make people head through the ranks for more powerful characters, which shouldn't be the case.

[Kirabo]

I'm about 50/50 on this.

The good thing regarding it:
- More work
- More prestige classes
- Harder to get

The bad things would be:
- Tier fives would be overpowered, as Duraza stated.
- Tiers one wouldn't stand a chance in fighting. Ever.
- I doubt this will really make prestiges less available to players, only require them to REALLY put some effort in it.
- The sole impression of fights. Keep in mind there are always 'passive metagamers' on this server which might try and avoid conflicts against powerful tier five characters, so being a tier five would make you lose combat roleplay. My opinion at least.

All in all, with a bit of work, as this IS a work in progress, it could do nice things, yeah. /nod

[aroes]

I think the important thing to remember about tier 4's and 5's is that they are supposed to be incredibly rare.

[Miah]

I agree Duraza, on your final comment. That's why I suggested a month between level's, because the player isn't just gonna ignore their character till they hit the next level. They are gonna be out there, roleplaying and gaining a reputation. The fact they would, in some way, be more powerful is what would make word about them spread. Before they advance up a level, they would have had a months worth of RP, in which time they might have done some very heroic, or very dastardly things that gain them fame among the community. In this way, they could be seen as more famous, or infamous, and thus earn their rank up to the next level. After all, it would be at the GM's discretion to level up a character, and if the GM has no idea who the character is, or what they have done, then they can't have made much of an impact, and might be told to keep going until they have a tale to tell, or have someone to vouch for what they have been up to (NOT a system where you need the support of X players to advance, as that is just so easily abused by a group of close OOC friends )

If you wanted a system where you "Levelled up" your reputation amongst the people in game, you already have one. Word spreads, and if your character truly is the most famous X on the server, they would be by earning it through RP without needing a title.

On the Tier 5 being near invincible, and tier 1's being quite weak. I say...Yes? That's a point to make that I actually like. I See tier one as the trainee, the apprentice or the one just starting out in said task. If someone has taken months of IC time, and IC training to become powerfull, then yeah, it seems weird that a warrior just starting out would have a shot at them. Heck, when you reach a stage like that, its understandable you would need a large mob to take one down.

If I were a tier 1, i would be -happy- that i couldn't take people down in fights, as thats not what this game is about to me. I would try, get beaten down, and maybe find inspiration to move up a level in the process. People need to stop worrying so much about the outcome of fights. If you lose a fight, its just as good for RP as winning it, unless you fight to the death. But if you know your character isn't as capable as another, which you can usually tell by IC mannerisms and even appearance, then just -don't- fight then, cause that's acting rash and will end up getting your character hurt.

No offence meant by this, just chipping in my opinions

[Kirabo]

@aroes - But they would be here. Five is more than enough for carnage of tier ones and twos.

@Miah -

Spoiler:

If I were a tier 1, i would be -happy- that i couldn't take people down in fights, as thats not what this game is about to me.

You won the game. /thumbsup

[sunday12321]

I must say, this system confused me. I mean, at first you mentioned that the five tiers are a matter of progress. But then again, as I saw, some prestiges stop at a certain tier, making it impossible for them to progress, and we're talking about -intense- classes like BeastMaster which you put in tier 2. I liked the System V2.0, but I offer a few changes to it, make the Second Class require a specific amount of posts, and a GM approval which will be given fairly easily, but after making sure the player is experienced and serious. E.G. "Must have 2-4 months of activity post-gruntship" etc. etc. etc. ,and have the Third Class prestiges to be harder to aquire, and perhaps even open a fourth class for -really- hard classes and give them out as purely to those who given a decent amount of time and devotion to the server, and to RP as the form of art it is. It is not impossible for the Core Classes [First Class] to take down the Second Class, and not impossible for the Second Class to take down the third. Maybe kill is harder, because killing is harder than just taking down in a spar, but do not forget that it is up to what the players agree to, as this server stated before. All RP is legitimate if all those who are a part of it in any way, accept it. Spars be the best case.
My suggestion is that Core-Classes also do not need -any- requirements, only training and approval if they change from one core class to another, be it the same progress as moving from class rank to class rank, but core classes should not have -any- special benefits. As someone who played here for over a year and a half now, and was here throughout many changes in various systems, be it the tokens, the vouching, the gruntship, the profiles, and the prestige, and I do believe I can assist with creating an improved prestige system that we could all enjoy, without any over-OPness, without any complications, that, as you saw, make this server appear harsh to our newer comrades, which prevents this community from growing, while it can't prevent people from leaving. We do not want this Server to fall like other RP servers that were badly managed. Strict on the nubs, let them prove themselves worthy!

[BountyHunter]

I must say, this system confused me. I mean, at first you mentioned that the five tiers are a matter of progress. But then again, as I saw, some prestiges stop at a certain tier, making it impossible for them to progress,

The aim of this system is that when you advance yourself to a certain tier, you can take one of those classes and become it and further increase in ability as you enhance yourself.

Say for an example, you choose to be a Fel-Sworn. You start it at Tier 2, finish your training, and you're a Fel-sworn, physical mutations and all. You then decide to further yourself and then you become a Tier 3 Fel-sworn. During this, you become less humanoid and grow more demonic mutations, stronger powers and, eventually, if you continue to enhance yourself, you finally become a demonic Fel fuelled monster.

[Xigo]

I'll be quick here.

I prefer this system to the previous one if only because it promotes actually going out there and training ICly. I always found the idea of making a few posts and then 'BAM', you're powerful, to be silly. It's odd to me how we consistently promote RP and then have the 'evolution of a character' take place entirely in posts, where in some cases, the character can not be RP'd at all due to the intensity of the training (Demon Hunters).

Also, my personal opinion is that all DKs should be Tier 2s right off the bat. They're Death Knights. Every one of them is a killing machine that has more kills under their belt than most other characters on this server, whether they like it or not.

[Spiky]

I do like the general direction in which this system is going.

However, I'd just like to put it out there, that we are not all footmen or John and Jane does. Some characters on this server participated in lore assaults on their characters, and I'd also like to say that though people might just say its "just a quest" Its not, your character does infact defeat that boss, or did indeed save that village.

What I'm saying is, tier one is above a townguard. Maybe not on combat skills and abilities (If you roleplay like that, kudos) But most of the time, your character will be better than the average guard. Even at tier 1, your character still made the choice to become that. Tier 0 isn't there.

[Xigo]

As previously stated, the guards only kick our asses every time to keep people from abusing things in cities.

Most characters are above the average town guard. It's just they use mob tactics.

EDIT: Though, you bring up an interesting point, Spiky. Perhaps there should be a 'tier 0' for peasants. :P

[Brutalskars]

Alright. Later today, probably after school for me at 4:00-5:00 Mountain Time to be exact I may be able to sit down and post. But I have been reading what you all have been suggesting and I am making notes and suggestions for myself off of them.

When I get back I will siphon back through -every- post. And I will address these points, thankyou all for your input.

[Spiky]

EDIT: Though, you bring up an interesting point, Spiky. Perhaps there should be a 'tier 0' for peasants.

Yes, we must create the peasants of DEMACIA!!!

[Nostra]

:words:

I agree with what Duraza have said, the only problem I have is that political power or fame/infamy is something very hard to give someone, especially on a server like ours. I'm not sure how many of you who have thought about it, but most people only stick around for a couple of months. This means that every, say six months, a large part of the community will consist of people that joined after Event X and saw anything of it or maybe only heard of Event Y. They will likely have no idea of who your character is, even if due to those events, s/he would be rather famous. And it's not easy to catch up on those things either, we could sit down and write pages on the Wiki but after awhile we would have a huge wall of text that likely would be a bit daunting to read.

And to say that Character Zeta here is famous, for whatever reason, wouldn't work either. How would people you interact with know? Writing it on your profile could help a little, but how many people honestly read profiles on the Wiki? Maybe you could take the responsibility yourself, but stating "My character is rather famous, yours would likely have heard of them" every time (exag) you RP with someone new might be both tiresome and a bit off-putting for that person.

In short, basing our prestiges on fame/politcal pull would be awesome, but very hard to do.

In a similar vein, it would be cool to see Prestiges instead of becoming demi-gods of power and might gain more in line with Political Leverage, maybe they get more leeway with NPCs, being able to pull strings to have that or that person incarcerated brefly for assaulting them, or able persuade higher-ups to let them bring along a squad of soldiers on a expedition for a few days. Different stuff for different prestiges, of course. This could be really interesting and might take away the focus on personal uberpower, but it would also mean a lot of work figuring out what kind of prestige would be able to do what, and when would they gain that kind of political pull. Not to mention that some prestiges might not lend themselves at all to this kind of model.

On another note, I'm not too fond of the idea of "levels" of prestige, really, the Categories the prestiges were placed in were made more so that we could make the less 'volatile' prestiges freely available while retaining some control over the prestiges that could easily be abused. I would rather see Prestiges simply taking a long time to accomplish, and the focus being to develop characters by focusing them in this way. But I honestly doubt we'll see that, since it would rely very much on selfmoderation and a lot of people are too mired in the whole RPG concept of leveling to really let go of it, which while understandable means it's hard to get something like that going.

A suggestion that was made awhile back by Grakor was to get rid of prestiges entirely, due to them being too based on the WoW RPG(D&D) and in WoW MMO many of our classes already incorporate aspects of several of those RPG prestiges. Maybe it would be better to focus on a new system built from scratch for CotH instead of trying to adapt the D&D stuff to our community? That's how I remember it, take it with a grain of salt, Grakor might have said something entirely different, hehe.


I think it's great to see people making suggestions, especially when so well thought-out as this, hope to see more of it in the future!