The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[Etmosril]

All right... since the main points of this system have already been examined..


I know this is going to make me sound like an utter cynic, but there was enough trouble regulating people on the last system. If anything, this system has far fewer restrictions. There won't be as many beyond-the-norm people running around, but they will have been replaced by ultra-powerful characters. All we will have done is made an exchange. And who's to say that people won't just power-level their characters, and/or play their highest-ranked character almost exclusively? I bet I would.

Miah was definitely right when she said that other players shouldn't be the ones to give power boosts. The entire system would become an arms race, powered by the friends you get to help you. So instead, it functions on the approval of GMs. This is better than needing player approval, but it still runs into some problems. GMs have circles of friends too. They may really enjoy, and agree with X player. They may decide some people shouldn't level because of what they've heard about them.

In our last system, the only time you needed GM approval was when you were making a Cat 3 prestige. You could take Cat 1s freely, and only had to notify GMs if you wanted to start training for a Cat 2. This new system relies far, far more on individual discretion of the GM - in theory, someone can be blocked from ever having a character above Tier 1. Or they can be granted the ability to level almost immediately. Just by virtue of who they know. I don't blame the GMs for paying attention to some people above others. Of course we're going to favor our friends! It's only human. To take the pressure off both groups, I think any system should hinge less on pre-approval, and more on a set of rules applied to everyone.


Finally (and I know this is a little off topic), wasn't the problem with our last system that we had too many prestiges? With the way the system worked, they were probably almost all Cat 1s. Perhaps setting a limit on how many each person could have would help. Although this is just hindsight.

[HownDoog]

I think the system will be beautiful when it's worked out completely. It's obviously taken a lot of hard work and time. More people should suggest ways to improve it over just simply downing the idea. I admit it seems a bit... I guess.... extensive. But that being said, I never plan on making a prestige anyway.

You did a wonderful job, Brutal. I think it's something to be considered.

[Rigley]

This new system relies far, far more on individual discretion of the GM

This is a really good point, actually. I personally don't know the full extent of the playerbase- I doubt most if any GMs do. We have to sorta go on word of mouth at one time or another, because getting easy to abuse prestiges such as the demon hunter and fel sworn require a huge amount of trust between the team and the player undergoing all the training.

And, since we can't possibly know -everyone-, sometimes that becomes an issue. I agree that, since I assume most will want to rank up if only not to be outdone by those around them, this sort of thing is likely to cause issue.


Which would just be terrible, really. Going through four or so prestige rank things only to be turned down on your Fel Sworn, rather than asking to go directly there and being told the issues then.

I don't know if I'm making sense. I'm rushing around and I'm still sleepyhead durr.

[Jurkey]

I dislike this sytem for the reason that ALL people want to have a powerful character.
Coriv, my assassin who have gone through his prestige training(almost done with the writing). That's a C2 prestige and I don't wish to advance him any further. But if there would be C5 prestiges, people would just do everything to get the most powerful character they could.

A C5 character could easily kill like 4 C1 characters? Wow..
It would make everyone do storylines, just to get power - because noone wants a weak character.
I like the prestige system that we had, which got closed. Just restrict the numbers of prestige titles that people can have.

I think that combat-wise: CotH is balanced as it is now. I believe this will lead to Mary Sue-ism.

[Brutalskars]

Alright. I was able to get to this earlier than I thought during class. I have read through the posts and I thank you for the suggestions and input, and I have to say, progress is a good thing.

First off, on the idea of limits to the number of Tiered characters per player, first base set up I came up with was this.
Tier 5, a max of 1, and if you have one you cannot have another tier 4.
Tier 4, a max of 1
Tier 3, a max of 2, these characters actually are better than tier 2, tier 2 was the start of abilities so to speak for classes, tier 3 is where they get good.
Tier 2, A max of 5, these characters are not much at all stronger or different than tier 1
Tier 1, no limit, these are base characters


On the subject of time periods I have come up with this basic idea.
How about,
-Each tier requires more effort than the last to achieve. Say it takes you 2-4 months for tier 2 or something, then you have that +1-3 months for each progressive tier.

-There is at least a month of 'break time' between -any- tier up. Even if it is not the same character.

-A character must of been an approved character for 2-4 weeks.


It is important to note that I was just jumbling around ideas with the whole 'power' thing. Tier 3 is the only substanial power difference, tier 2 is only slightly different than tier 1, tiers 4 and 5 should be able to according to their standings have more RP options. As Nostra brought up, say I am a Blood Mage*Archmage* and I am trying to pull off a murder in Silvermoon, if I am a tier 4, I may have some sort of leverage to get away with the murder. I do not know however that is something based on how the player roleplays right?

Now, I cannot, well, no one can easily go and make every type of combat system's roll bonuses for every class, let alone the tiers. This should be up to players to deal with for the most part on a case by case basis and deal with responsibly as we have always done.
Now, on the subject of the RPG, I do not know if anyone noticed but I did sort of mutilate and remove RPG classes. No more gladiator, instead that is a life choice, you are just becoming a better warrior right? And ranger is not elf specific, apothecary/potion doc are now lumped into the same ‘archetype'. I do not like how the RPG does classes, so as you may of seen I did some rewriting, like adding shadow and old gods paths for High Divinist, and the like; I hold the RPG with very little love, it should only be used as a reference if there is no other source what so ever to look too.

But these modifications are just ideas right? This is a project not only my own, but one I want the server as a -whole- to assist with. This does not mean cryptic dislike only posts or only fanboyism, I want progress and to make something that works. These ideas I came up with above are thanks to your input for those of you that gave input.

[Miah]

I dislike this sytem for the reason that ALL people want to have a powerful character.

It would make everyone do storylines, just to get power - because noone wants a weak character.
.

If this is true, then there is something seriously wrong with RP here. Its not about being powerful. Its about roleplaying. Having fun. Social interaction through assumed roles. Not being the "best". True, I made a prestige that is seen as one of the more powerful, felsworn. But to counter it, I made her a gnome. And neurotic. And substantially weaker than the average, to the point of being subservient to other Felsworn.

The best role-player's i've met get there asses handed to them in equal measure to that they dish out. Or even less. If the person reviewing the "level" up felt they only wanted to do so for power, then just deny them. And simply tell them "That's as far as your going, as I don't Believe you are responsible enough to handle more power, as you so far have used it recklessly."

I imagine no-one would get to level 5 unless they were the type to have power, without using it for anything other than a specific cause, or self defence. with great power comes great responsibility, and all that jazz. So im thinking, demon hunters maybe could reach level 5, as long as they had NOTHING to focus on other than slaying of demons. In this case, I imagine most would choose to stay level 4 or lower. For a warrior, i imagine level 5 to be the master of their art, the kind of character who is older, and -could- kick ass, but prefer's living at peace, only using their abilities when needs must. Certain prestiges therefore, such as Bezerkers, could not achieve level 5.

Typing like im talking here, coming up with ideas mid typing, but maybe thats what the system needs. Proof of not only training, but responsibility. bezerkers and felsworn and such, who would use their strength recklessly in most cases, could, in most cases, only level to 3, maybe 4. But those who would use their power responsibly, like my two earlier examples, would be the ones deemed acceptable to gain this max level. No maniac bezerker is gonna reach that level. Only someone with the level headedness necessary could

I rambled on, feel free to tell me to shush :P

[Tales23]

Honestly, I think Prestige needs to get back on the back burner. It seems like everyone has a Prestige Character these days and it really makes them common and uninteresting. It makes something that supposed to be special and turns it into something that is as common as every other class/player.

Prestige Characters on Coth have always been about Story progression, and I think it should stay that way. A prestige character shouldn't be based on whether people know you or not it should be on how well you know the lore, how well you can pull off the character and who much effort you put into attaining it. Mulbane is probably the best example, he wrote such a good story for his prestige character.

If Prestige characters are easy too attain it makes them not fun to see or have. There are also the finer details about prestige characters that can be seen in story progression that ensures you know how to play the character, take for example a Demon Hunter. The main arch of the Demon Hunter is all about the slow transformation into the very thing that their hunting. In becoming one you become an outcast, giving up your old life to take up hunting demons as a Demon. I've heard about people socializing casually as Demon Hunters but really they should be tormented by the fact that they really can't return to that old life, instead of drinking at a pub they spend what's left of their life hiding the pain in the eventual senseless slaughter of demons. Will he Hunter overcome the Darkness or will he become completely the thing he was hunting?

"Night elf society shuns demon hunters. Most night elves don't understand the noble sacrifice that demon hunters make; therefore, they make another sacrifice: to be outcasts from their society."

In the end, I think that prestige needs a complete rework and their needs to be a look over in the lore behind the classes. Another example of something that worries me is that some classes are merging, Graven One and Necromancer and Blood Mage and Archmage. Two classes which are completely different.

[Miah]

Prestige is on the backburner. Its been closed for way over a month.

[Tales23]

For now, and even now I've already seen several prestige characters including a few Demon Hunters, Demons, Necromancer, Archmage/Blood Mage thing and I think another Archmage.

I've been back for like a week, and spent maybe two days in game none of which was spent in Character yet.

[Jonoth]

Firstly, I appreciate all the work that is put in to modifying and updating the prestige system, and the very civil nature that this has occurred

The issue I've had with the prestige systems in general is that

1) Many characters have a logical progression/reason to be that prestige class. Assassin is the one I'll pick on here, as more often than not the only differences between an assassin and an average mercenary is the use of stealth and guile and that an assassin often does the killing for a cause rather than just for payment. This doesn't require an increase in ability as much as a cause and often an organization to fight for.

2) The prestige system should rely more on ingame RP than forum writing. In theory, I could get to a level 5 prestige on a char without ever meeting another player ingame with that char. As a grunt, all I need to do is get profiled, get 80'd, and request to start the prestige. This is less a knock on just this system as much as it is on systems in general. I think of it like this: what if the last time I RPed a char, he was a bumbling, stumbling imbicile, and the next time people saw him, he was a Demon Hunter? If the system is to be replaced, why not do so with a system that encourages character interaction. Now that we have a few prestiges already running around, I would love to see this generation of characters being the custodians of the next through RP.

3) A tiered system will always inevitably be an arms race. Going from one to three levels made prestiges more widely sought, as it established a "power level". And in pursuit of five levels, as stated in point 2, it will take characters even moreso out of the game and to the forums. If a character loses an IC fight, I see less RPing the consequences of the loss and more "gotta get to the next tier!" happening.

I like to think of a lore character like Illidan as an example of how prestige works best. The important thing about him is not how powerful he was, but -why- he went down the path he did. So the Prestige system that happens next will need to be one that focuses more on the why than the how. If gaining a prestige becomes more about the character, and less about the power benefits, it will solve the problem of too many running around, because only the people that truly believe that it is the right direction for their character will pursue it, rather than feeling like a prestige is needed to survive.

[Wuvvums]

2) The prestige system should rely more on ingame RP than forum writing. In theory, I could get to a level 5 prestige on a char without ever meeting another player ingame with that char. As a grunt, all I need to do is get profiled, get 80'd, and request to start the prestige. This is less a knock on just this system as much as it is on systems in general. I think of it like this: what if the last time I RPed a char, he was a bumbling, stumbling imbicile, and the next time people saw him, he was a Demon Hunter? If the system is to be replaced, why not do so with a system that encourages character interaction. Now that we have a few prestiges already running around, I would love to see this generation of characters being the custodians of the next through RP.

1: Ever login to the server and there's no rp at the time? Or all the rp is in Booty Bay? Some prestiges require you to be in isolation. I would also find it hard to rp something like trying to become an assassin without people meta-gaming it.

This wouldn't work well for people who have to log in at certain times because of a job, school, or other obligations.

Not to criticize the rp we have right now, but it's hard to find rp at times and it would be hard to control your own progress.

[LegendaryFro]

Don't back track, Wuvvums, it is good to criticize things, as long as it is in some way constructive. I think that that point brings up the excellent question of "Is our current RP suited to -having- a prestige system"? If RP that prevents such character development in game is hard to come by, should a system that is so majorly focused on developing a character be put in place?

[Anski]

What if the last time I RPed a char, he was a bumbling, stumbling imbicile, and the next time people saw him, he was a Demon Hunter?

Well, I have a LOOOOOT to say about this prestige system that i'm going to hold my tongue on, but to negate this example, Demon Hunters are completely isolated from society during their training. They may shortly converse with someone who wanders their way but it's not really looked highly upon.

[Wuvvums]

Don't back track, Wuvvums, it is good to criticize things, as long as it is in some way constructive. I think that that point brings up the excellent question of "Is our current RP suited to -having- a prestige system"? If RP that prevents such character development in game is hard to come by, should a system that is so majorly focused on developing a character be put in place?

Yes, because it's good for us who want to develop our characters in our own constructive ways, like writing a story on the forums.

I'm sure some of us walked away from our prestige threads with something gained.

[McKnighter]

I'm gonna hit up on a few point, Brutal and I spoke a bit about shaping the system, so I think I have a little knowledge about how it'll(hopefully) work out.



1) I see a lot of people going "Tier 5 is going to destroy us all!"

- Currently, if the system was put into place, the first T5 character would be Kretol. That is the level of power that we're speaking about. I don't even expect to see a T5 come out in anything less than a year if the system comes out.

- And, as much as a T5 has power, it all depends on what class it is, and how the RP session occurs. If a T5 Warrior is taking a stroll in STV, and finds himself surrounded by five T1 warlocks with 5 demonic minions, all from high ground. That Warrior is going to be -lucky- to survive, seeing that he has ten targets to take down, plus they are all out of his reach.


2) Regarding the 'arms race'...

- As Brutal pointed out, it's going to take months to rank up in a prestige. I really didn't like doing Redis' prestige title, simply because it was a lot of work for me.

Copying and pasting logs from which a GM did half of the RP'ing made it a lot easier than most people, who had to write up -everything-. I highly doubt many people are going to be motivated to even get up to T4.

- Yes, more people are going to be powerful. So, perhaps this will make characters learn how to not do stupid things. Survival of the Fittest!.. So to speak..


3) GM Approval

- I think we could do what the last system purposed. You'll have to create a storyline thread regarding your advancement, and the GM's will oversee the posts. At any time, if they feel like you are not doing a good enough job, they can PM you about what you need to do/change, or simply tell you to stop and disallow you from continuing the advancement.





Those are the top points I wanted to hit up!(Or all that I can remember. )