Cataclysm: My Opinions

[Evaszion]

...You don't get blues every quest, that's is a major exaggeration. You get a blue or two everytime you finish a zone or major quest hub. I have two level 85's and a 25 on retail, my Gnome doesn't run around herp derping in all blues, she runs around in greens and the BoAs I bought her.

[Aphetoros]

...You don't get blues every quest, that's is a major exaggeration. You get a blue or two everytime you finish a zone or major quest hub. I have two level 85's and a 25 on retail, my Gnome doesn't run around herp derping in all blues, she runs around in greens and the BoAs I bought her.

To be fair, though, the greens are often the quality of blues...

Oh man, I was so upset when I had to replace all my l33t purples for greens in Cata the first trash mob I killed XD

[Binkleheimer]

That also happened when BC rolled around, Aphe.

Tedious is not hard. It just means it takes forever. My idea idea of fun is not spending five hours a day trying to grind gold to afford the potions and all for the raid. My idea of fun is not spending hours in one dungeon in the hopes that the boss at the end drops the one piece of loot I need.

BC and Vanilla were never hard. Vanilla only seemed hard because it was all new. And then the guides and strategies started to roll around. Then people kept writing them when they got into the later betas and all.

There's a reason why harder difficulties in games ramps up enemy AI, HP and/or the power of their weapons and doesn't just turn the game into a grind.

It also probably doesn't help that most have been playing since the game started. After a while, you pretty much get most things figured out.

[Krilari]

The greens are the quality of blues because they introduced the new stat to the game, which changed EVERYTHING endgame. Because of these stat changes, its for the better that they replace the epics from ICC.

[CappnRob]

That also happened when BC rolled around, Aphe.

Tedious is not hard. It just means it takes forever. My idea idea of fun is not spending five hours a day trying to grind gold to afford the potions and all for the raid. My idea of fun is not spending hours in one dungeon in the hopes that the boss at the end drops the one piece of loot I need.

BC and Vanilla were never hard. Vanilla only seemed hard because it was all new. And then the guides and strategies started to roll around. Then people kept writing them when they got into the later betas and all.

There's a reason why harder difficulties in games ramps up enemy AI, HP and/or the power of their weapons and doesn't just turn the game into a grind.

It also probably doesn't help that most have been playing since the game started. After a while, you pretty much get most things figured out.

Yep. Oddly enough, the transition from BC to WotLK was smoother (I can still get some mileage out of BC purps in Northrend).

Anyways. I will argue that Vanilla and BC were harder, but only in RAIDS. Like for example the ridiculous gear requirements to do Nefarian, which involved having to have killed Onyxia, then have the ENTIRE RAID wear cloaks made from her hide or else they get instakilled. Vanilla and BC had raids where you had to do something other than just tank and spank your way to victory.

But good god everything else was just a grindfest. It wasn't hard, it was just slow and drawn out.

[Xigo]

'Hard' does not work in MMOs because 'hard' revolves around higher levels of skill. MMOs revolve around higher levels of gear and knowing the proper way to faceroll your keyboard.

To go on a tangent here, 'hard' rarely works in any game. It revolves around the AI cheating (Puzzle/Card/RTS games), the player having incredible luck (FPS [Call of Duty Veteran, I'm looking at you]), or the stats of the enemies just being ramped up significantly (RPGs).

A true hard mode would bring up the enemy's AI, making them more relentless in their assaults but not suddenly have new tools at their disposal, or take five minutes to kill just one basic mook. When you die in one of these games it's because you failed. Not because the enemy cheated. Not because you got bored of hammering on the same guy and slipped due to it. But because you honestly made the wrong decision in the fight and it cost you your life.
There is only one game I can name off the top of my head that really got 'hard mode' right. World of Warcraft is not that one game because it revolves around tedious grinding and having the best equipment, not skill. I could walk into dungeons and solo them on my DK with all the best equipment, and have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.

Darksiders

Seriously. If you have not played this games yet and have the means to do so, PLAY IT. It is a shining examples of what I believe to be the 'perfect hard mode'. Something that challenges me, forces me to be aware of my surroundings, and when I screw up I know it was my fault. Sure, I'll die a couple times before I actually figure out the key to victory, but it's not tedious. Somehow death just feels... it doesn't make me rage. It just makes me go 'huh, I did something wrong'.

And when I do win a fight in Darksiders it grants me the most triumphant of feelings. Like I just kicked something's arse around the room through skill, not through having the best gear or the enemy being stupid.

I'd include Monster Hunter there, but there's no setting difficulties in Monster Hunter. Monster Hunter to me is also a must play for someone who desires a challenge in a game.

Don't get me wrong. I like MMOs. I enjoy getting that new piece of loot and being super awesome. But I will never delude myself with the thought that playing an MMO actually takes skill (outside of PVP, I suppose). It is a tedious grind and the only thing that matters is just how hardcore you have to be to actually get the stuff.

I don't want to grind for hours just to participate in some of the content, believe it or not. I don't want to have to kill Onyxia a bajillion times so I can go into Naxxramas and kill the boss there a bajillion times. I just want to play the damn game. And if that means the 'hardcore' crowd gets an excuse to moan about the game becoming easier for people who don't want to waste time grinding, well, it kind of sucks to be them. This may sound crazy, but casual players like me are the main demographic of World of Warcraft, not the hardcore crowd. If it catered to those who want you to grind for days just to get a new cape... well, if I paid for WoW I would certainly stop paying for it there.

TL;DR: If you want a challenge, don't play PvE in a MMO like WoW.

[Wuvvums]

I dunno, Spiral Knights felt pretty hard when we had to fight the two giant gunpuppies :3

[Xigo]

.. Spiral Knights is an exception, and one of the better MMOs I've played.

[Binkleheimer]

Shadowbane was pretty hard.

Then again, it was pretty much PvP.

EVE is beyond hard. It's masochism.

[FlyingSquirrel]

EVE is beyond hard. It's masochism.

This is where we differ. See, I find EVE fun because you can't automatically jump into the mix. It takes time to learn to play. Some people differ with what they find fun, and that's really where Human error comes in, because there's a chance one will think that that's wrong, and therefore you is. Really, what's fun is just an opinion.

[Reigen]

Gosh, EVE is so hard for me to get into, but that's just because it's different. [I -still- can't walk right in that game.]

As for cata, I really have no opinion on it besides the small taste of it I had at a friends house, where he let me go though the Worgen starting zone. I had fun with it and I'd love to do it again. Personally I'm looking forward for when COTH might get it, or when I get retail. Whichever comes first.

[Cressy]

>> I enjoy how you derailed this persons thread, guys.

Anyways, back on topic. It was way easier leveling up once Cata came out, which was the same form when Wrath came out, and burning crusade.

I mean, I probably didn't play nearly as much as you did, but I level from 1-65 in about a week of just running dungeons and derping around exploring/questing. I mean, that didn't happen during either of the other expansions.

And, uh, yeah. I dislike how anyone can pretty much get into Heroics with you now. I do not need to explain how many times I had to DERP around with some nubs because they wanted to run heroic Grim and lol, they couldn't even bomb the damn guys-...Er, another time.

Anyways...

[Hawk]

I got a month trial for Cataclysm, and I have to say, the only thing that was really "Wat?" for me was and entire town being spawned out of a small box. Amusing, but a bit slapstick comedy for me. Other than that, really, I loved the starter zones. I got to level 85 rather quickly. It took me... what, a little over a week? I just kept doing quests, and if I was out of gear, I did a few dungeons for a while. I remember speaking to Cressy over vent and being like "WAT DO AGAINST THESE MOBS I KEEP DYING" when I went to Hyjal. My mind was blown when I was buying auctioned greens that were better than the epics.

My experience with PuGs was overall rather pleasant. There was the occasional dimwit who wiped the group, but other than that it was fun. The only thing that really pissed me off was when I really wanted to run Deadmines and as soon as I got there, nine times out of ten, half of the people just went "OH GODDAMIT DM" and buggered off. I don't know why everyone hates it.

But... wait, what? You want a challenge in getting -INTO- the group? That makes no sense to me. Why would you want to spend 3 hours waiting to do a raid? That's not embracing a challenge or doing it in hard mode, that's just... well hell, I don't even know what it is. Also, apparently the Cata raids are supposed to be pretty difficult from what I've heard and that WotLK was way easier. I only played for a month so I never got to join a real raid. I only did 5-mans.

In my personal opinion, the deal with WoW is that the people who really want to play a challenging game just don't play WoW. Why? Well, it really isn't that hard. I mean hell, in Cataclysm, you actually get an ingame book thing that tells you the abilities the bosses have, so even without looking up guides on the 'net you can still form an idea in your head on what to do. Really for raiding, you just need good teamwork, communication and knowledge. The majority of WoW players are the ones who don't really play the game for the competition. They just play the game. That's just what I think, anyway.

[Stormgald]

Thanks for all the replies guys! I would like to just let most of you know who seem to be taking this thread a little to seriously. That whole brick of text at the beginning was meant to be over the top and exaggerated. Especially the part where I made waiting hours for groups sound like a good thing. It wasn't. I love the idea of a dungeon finder, but it shouldn't be X-realm in my opinion. The same goes for BG's. Now, I know BG's used to be hella long Q's back in the day where we didn't have X-realm, but back then the server populations were significantly lower. I don't know, I guess just all in all I don't have the same feelings I used to when I played WoW back in the old days. Maybe I just lack endorphins. /shrug

What it all boils down to is social interaction. Which, to me, has been greatly hindered by Cataclysm.

[Dragonbeard]

I can tell you that after playing in Cata for five months and coming here back to WotLK, I was super pissed off half of the time. Cataclysm makes things much, muuuuuuuuuuch simpler in terms of:

-Traveling (Even without a hub city, flight in Azeroth? Brilliant.)
-Talent Trees (The talent trees are no longer littered with random, useless talents. They aren't "cookie-cutter," because they're simpler.)
-Leveling at lower levels (This was NEVER hard. However, the implementation of class core abilities at lower levels for classes such as Paladin and Shaman, makes the game much easier to understand to new players. Rolling a Paladin pre-4.0 means you auto-attack stuff for 50 levels)
-Understanding skill rotations for playing your class effectively (Yes. This is the one thing I will admit has gotten "easier." Overall, it just made things smoother. If anything, people shouldn't complain that the rocks have been taken out of your shoes.)
-Questing (I say this because questing is now fun and interactive, with phasing zones, scripted quests, great rewards, and new factions for reputation gains. The new 1-60 is so fun, I personally rolled three new toons to play through it and stopped them at 61-62 because everything else is too boring until 80-85)

There are a few more improvements to the interface and such that also make the game look better. Not to mention some graphics updates to at least catch the game up a few years.

Cataclysm is easy? Hmm. You're forgetting some things in your diagnosis of an "easy game." If you came into Cataclysm without ever playing World of Warcraft, it is still just as daunting as it would be had you came in in Vanilla. Don't believe me? Well, I suppose it's hard to if you're in a situation like mine. After playing a game for six years, you become so familiar with it, that it is hard to imagine the first time you logged in.

Just because the game is simpler, does not make it easier in any sense. WoW is not about questing, it's not about PvP, it's not about raiding, and it is not (don't kill me) about RP or other activities such as planned world-PvP, ect. No, World of Warcraft is ALL of those things. You cannot take a game and look at it based on one or two parts. You have to look at its whole. Unfortunately, for a veteran player, it is hard to look back at all of those parts you've already completed.

I have Loremaster. I am very close to the Exalted. I have the 100 mounts achievement. I have the 75 pets achievement. I have done every raid/instance in the game save for Firelands and beaten every boss except for a few heroic mode Cata bosses. I have been in some of the top raiding guilds and the worst raiding guilds, the most exciting PvP guilds and the most dreadful PvP guilds, and some of the most intriguing RP guilds and then one that I later found out was inspired by Twilight (I quit two seconds later).

To put it simply, I have done pretty much everything I care to do in the game. My problem? I'm bored. Cataclysm did change a LOT of content, but they didn't do much for the endgame. The new quests are very fun, and the new zones are exciting. Worgen and Goblins are pretty sweet. However, my problem is that there's nothing to do. Roleplay has seen a DRAMATIC decline (people are playing now on other games).

So that's actually why I'm here. Believe you me, if Cataclysm had a few more things for me to do, or something else to occupy my time at endgame, I'd go back in a hot second.

Edit: Ah yes, I forgot dungeons. I will wholeheartedly agree that dungeons can be daunting, especially heroics, because there is hardly a restriction upon keeping idiots out of your groups. I can rant forever, but I will just say that the remedy for this is to join a guild and run them with guildies. I NEVER do a random without my own healer, a tank (which is usually me) and at least one DPS who puts out some good damage.