Restricting RP! Rawr!

[pliantreality]

Well, I for one would like to see a tad less anonimity between the Alliance and Horde. Of course if you're super gung-ho and go around attacking guards and such you wouldn't be welcome, but for those of us whom try to remain neutral...it'd definitely help with RP.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The fact of Azeroth is that the Alliance has declared war on the Horde- there is, consequently and reasonably, a lot of tension between the races of both now. That is to be expected.

Those playing neutral characters will have to recognize the difficulty of staying neutral during a time of conflict. Neutrality is either carefully fostered and comes at a price, or the result of apathy.

If your character simply doesn't care, the animosity between Horde and Alliance shouldn't matter. If your character is pointedly neutral, that will have to be something they actively maintain.

Now.

On the subject of Conquest RP; I have been thinking quite a bit about this. I might, in fact, make an entirely new thread regarding it. I believe it could be central to shaking up the feeling of stagnation without upsetting the Blizz-lore of the server.

I see the challenge of viable Conquest RP as follows.
1) It cannot upset Blizz-lore. That means no major cities, and in fact might exclude any town or village already on the map depending on one's interpretation of the original maxim.

2) It must be accessible to a majority of the server- one shouldn't have to roll up an entirely new character just to participate.

3) It must be largely player-driven/guild-driven. The reasons for each attack should be IC. And that's a good thing- imagine the RP involved. The leaders plan the attack, the players train to get ready. Non-combat PC's fix armor, write records, shoot the bull with the combat ones in a tavern. Post-attack, taverns fill with the tales of past conquests won and lost. Counter-attacks are planned. All of this is RP and completely separate from whatever mechanisms the ACTUAL attack entails.

4) It must be GM-moderated, which is to say, there is GM oversight in order to curb abuse or confusion or any of the myriad of things that can and likely would go wrong.

Those four things are the challenges, as I understand them, and I believe there is an answer to each of them. I will be posting a proposed look at the challenges in another thread.

I find it comforting to read this thread, however, and know that plenty of people on the server are not simply whining- they have ideas and suggestions and on the whole it is apparent that the continued health and success of this server is their priority.

End of ramble.

[Grakor456]

This is not an attempt to dissuade people posting their opinions. I just want to throw my two cents in, and hopefully clarify why we've done some of the things we have.

Prestiges: The removal of prestiges was never intended as a means of restricting RP. This is because of one simple fact: the prestige system itself is a means of restricting RP. The entire point of it is to prevent people from becoming certain things easily, and instead make them jump through hoops in order to become them.

This leads to the aftermath of the removal, where one of two things are likely to happen: one, we will throw something else out there which will allow people to play certain variant concepts without the restrictive definitions of the prestige system and without the roll bonuses that made it problematic; or two, we'll not replace it, and as a result some of the titles that once were regulated would become freely rollable by players. (I can't say all, due to reasons of power scale and model change ickiness, but still.)

(Edit: I write this largely as I believe people have this incorrect notion that I hate players being powerful, which I don't. I don't like prestiges because the system was bad and I hate it, not because it let people be powerful. Power scale is another issue altogether and I think it's something that can be talked about in another thread, if necessary.)

(Edit 2: Also, because people have this incorrect notion that I hate variations. I dislike base classes that aren't base classes now, due to my own exposure to Runemasters after playing one, but I don't dislike variations of existing base classes. I was never attempting to stomp people into all playing the same ten base classes with no differences between them at all. I, for example, still love the idea of Grakor as a Spiritwalker because of the RP it gives.)

Conquest RP: Others have touched on this, and so I want to reiterate this. While Kretol has said that one of the major reasons we don't allow conquest is due to the drama that would inevitably rise as a result of PvP interactions in such a case, the other reason is the problem of custom server lore. If there's too much of it, it becomes unfamiliar and new players are both confused and overwhelmed. You then have to give every new player a history lesson in the vast changes that have occurred, and some will find out this stuff and immediately leave. I saw it happen so many times during the Sin'sholai/Arathi Wars/Stromguarde mess in the past.

This is why I have been against Conquest RP, personally. Looking at the long-term implications, when one guild takes over one place, then another will want to take over another. And more people are trying to take places over, small at first, but then past areas get abandoned and more areas get taken over, and slowly the server becomes less and less like Warcraft.

Also, it's why I feel that if we ever did allow conquest, we'd then have to have periodic server lore restarts in order to keep the server clean. I'm not sure the players would like that.

It is unfortunate that the current core does not allow the battleground instances to be up and portaled to, as places like Alterac Valley and Isle of Conquest would be excellent for this kind of RP, without intruding on the rest of the world.

[Avitz]

Also, it's why I feel that if we ever did allow conquest, we'd then have to have periodic server lore restarts in order to keep the server clean. I'm not sure the players would like that.

Rather than a complete wipe...why not something like say a Deus-Ex Machina...We'd already have one (That being the Cataclysm when Cata comes round on this server.), so why not think of a few other events that would hurl all attempts at 'owning' the location out the window.

Trying to make a quick example, say a settlement was established in some troll ruins somewhere...after a few months of different groups trying to permanently claim the place, native trolls appear out of nowhere in over-whelming numbers, reducing the place to dust?

Just another thought, that is all.

[flammos200]

So, now that the drama has let up for a bit, I think it's time to get some more opinions (but hopefully not more drama).

From what I've been reading in some folks' absence threads (and some folks' introduction threads on other forums), people seem to be of the impression that we are restricting roleplay like crazy. Therefore, I would like folks that have this opinion to elaborate on what precisely has influenced their view to this degree.

Is it the announcement of the impending prestige system removal?
Perhaps the denial of conquest RP?
Or maybe the lack of the world being changed by every character's actions?
Or could it be us no longer considering the RPG books canon? (We're simply following Blizzard on this)

Please elaborate!

Yay! I'm so glad the initiative to ask this was taken. Hearing the plights 'n causes of of the community is a great thing to do!

...My excitement aside, here's my general idea: RP does not feel to me as being extremely restricted; Why? Well, back in my 'younger days' here, the GMs paid insane amounts of attention to what characters played and did, and if they broke racial stereotypes, class stereotypes or did 'iffy' things via spells, abilities or enchanted objects, they'd get reprimanded. I should know...

Anyhow, such is present no longer, it seems. No one blinks twice to evil Draenei(I remember someone being specifically told 'No evil Draenei.' - in those words as they tried for the first Fel-sworn on the server), or TechNElves/NElves that break every moral convention of their society and so on.

Is this all a good thing? Well... this will sound rather mean of me, but I don't think it's a good thing that the way people's characters act is no longer under scrutiny, to the point at which rather silly situations may occur. I don't think people shouldn't try to deviate from the norm. I think fewer people should be the 'special snowflake' or 'rebel', and more the 'Stereotypical member of X race and Y class' - Even if you follow Stereotypes as a guideline, you will end up with unique and well-fleshed-out characters, mainly -because- society offers a context and background for your charrie. Think of an Army. In every movie/game, the soldier that disobeys orders ends up saving the day. Now, if every soldier in an army disobeyed orders, would there be an army? Who would safeguard everyone?

As for the latter points; Prestiges are nice to have, I like them, but I can live without them - especially if they are handled in a system that is broken or otherwise impairs the 'fun-factor' of RP. Yes, they are great tools for character development, but they should help, rather than hurting.

Conquest RP and Changing the world(For they are related).... Hmm, I've heard so many wonderful stories of the Sin'sholai, Arathi War, Retaking of Stromgarde and so on, and experienced the incredible storylines that bloomed thanks to those events, and even had RP in Stromgarde - at one point for every day for weeks on end, when the Expedition was camped there. All I can say is, that I would want more of that. Please. I realize that with the advent of Cataclysm, we generally want to do 'nothing but Cata' but, really... Conquest RP does not have to be PvP! It can easily be done via PvE mass events - For example, at one point, long long ago, the same Expedition wanted to do an IC raid of Ymiron Keep, and conquer it, and while the project was obviously denied, it was a fair attempt; We're missing out on so many things that we could help out with via that good old tool: Imagination.

I loved 'Old CoTH' mainly because it didn't try to be Blizzard. It was always 'CoTH Lore > Blizz Lore' and CoTH was doing its own thing, and being that epic rebel about it, fist in the air like a revolutionary sticking it to the man! At least, such was the attitude when I came... And frankly?... I loved it. I still love it, even though the footholds and places to cling to are becoming fewer and fewer, I will not let go.

And this brings me to our last point: The RPG Books. I've long heard it said that we're 'Not playing a MMO but rather, we're using WoW as a medium to play a Role-playing game'. That's stuck with me thus far, and I doubt it'll go anywhere anytime soon. I like the RPG books, and I wish they were used by more people, more often, because of the spice they add to RP. Small, but important things. I mean, stuff that in normal life don't really have an impact, but which in certain situations can prove essential.

As an example, the Paladin/Warden spell Zone of Truth, attempts to force the creatures inside it to speak the truth, and makes them unable to lie knowingly. In most RPs, this wouldn't really have any use, right? But what happens when your, say, crime-fighting Paladin has the enemy in their grasp, and the latter is trying to deceive them, or the Paladin is trying to interrogate the Big Bad? The Pally pops a Zone of Truth! That is exactly the sort of situation for which it was designed.

It goes on for a while as such; I would like more emphasis to be placed on Non-Combat spells and abilities, because I feel that the current stand on this is too restrictive. This is also one of the reasons for which I heartily support an alternative(Variants and Specials, for instance) to the Prestige system: It allows you to Role-play a character in a lore-wise correct manner, differently from the norm.

The RPG books give that. They hand you tons of non-combat spells and abilities. From clairvoyance/clairaudiance, to dimensional doors, to passwall, to hooks of binding, Gates, illusions, Sending, Divination and so forth.

I personally think CoTH should stop trying to be Blizzard, and resume the rebellious attitude of the days of yore. Either that, or try to be Blizzard, but accept the downsides that come with that; With the lore-failure, and the catgirls, and everyone with Warglaives and the Cursed Vision of Sargeras RPing a Demon Hunter, and all those other things that make Blizzard's servers known far and wide - Such deviations only really appeared because of how Blizzard gave people few things to work with.

[Rosencrat]

Honestly, I think it is a fallacy that you –need- to run around conquering cities and waging war to feel as if you made an impact in the ‘world’. It’s the same sort of thinking that leads people to think that events must revolve around combat and that the only meaningful role-play is through prestiges or events.

Yes, if you’ve leveled a city or reduced a forest to a war-torn hell-hole then you have indeed ‘made an impact’. People gnash their teeth at the very mention of your name and you can add a few more war ribbons and battle scars to your hair-encrusted chest.

I’ve never engaged in conquest RP and I can safely say that I have made an impact on this ‘world’.

Have I helped level cities? No. Have I helped win wars? No. Have I helped change the tide of battle? No. Yet one of my characters has had her name spread from Stormwind to Shattrath, has been hunted down by half a dozen guilds and has been labeled a true enemy of the ‘state’.

You can kill as many NPCs as you want in the world and it won’t make a lick of difference if the PC population doesn’t respect (Or fear) you. Change the world by RPing with your fellow players. Don't wait for some abstract 'event' to roll around to motivate you to action.

[Aphetoros]

This is not an attempt to dissuade people posting their opinions. I just want to throw my two cents in, and hopefully clarify why we've done some of the things we have.

Prestiges: The removal of prestiges was never intended as a means of restricting RP. This is because of one simple fact: the prestige system itself is a means of restricting RP. The entire point of it is to prevent people from becoming certain things easily, and instead make them jump through hoops in order to become them.

But by removing the hoops, you also remove the place to land. So basically instead of landing at progress, you land in a pit full of man-eating butterflies and stagnant water.

EDIT: As an addendum to Missus Rosencrat, I do think that's not quite what's hoped for. Sure, things like that would be cool, but what about Orcish RP that causes the forests to -change-. Or druidic roleplay to heal the Barrens-- or Desolace-- with lasting effects.

[Sadron]

I haven't really read over other pages of posts, so I apologize if some of this is a repetition of what others have said. But here are my thoughts:


Is it the announcement of the impending prestige system removal?
While I may not agree with the total removal of the prestige system, I can't quite say it's a devastating loss. Every time we've discussed the prestige system, there seems to be a massive dramastorm over some people hating it and some people loving it. I don't think the loss of the prestige system actually limits RP. There are other ways to advance your character without having to become a prestige. If we focus on that, the loss of the prestige system won't be such a loss after all.


Perhaps the denial of conquest RP?

I don't think conquest RP is a bad thing. It can be an awful idea, unless it's done with care. Like other people have said, we can do the phasing thing and have small IC villages that would be conquered. We could also have different factions and the like reclaiming land from NPCs that could actually be used for RP locations. Such as the former acadamy in Eversong Woods (the name escapes me).


Or maybe the lack of the world being changed by every character's actions?

While I would love for all of my characters to have an impact on the world, I just don't think it would be realistic to have every single character on the server making an impact in the world. Changing the world is a very difficult thing to do, I believe that CotH should reflect that. HOWEVER, that is not to say characters wouldn't be able to change the world. It should just be difficult for them to do so.

I am reminded of way back just after the Shin'sholai storyline came to a close, when I would take a stroll through Silvermoon and note that some of the scenery had changed and the 'reconstruction' of the city was making progress. Like the scaffolding that towered next to buildings. It's little things like that that really make the world come to life, at least to me.


Or could it be us no longer considering the RPG books canon? (We're simply following Blizzard on this)

Meh. I'm indifferent to this, because I never read the books.

[Grakor456]

But by removing the hoops, you also remove the place to land. So basically instead of landing at progress, you land in a pit full of man-eating butterflies and stagnant water.

I'm afraid that this analogy is lost on me. Can you explain what you mean, please?

[FlyingSquirrel]

1) Prestige removal; Fine with this, really. All that I really want is cultural Prestiges, as I've said before. Pyremaster, Farseer, Spirit Walker, Warden, Mountain King, etc. Those things that add a little spice to an occasion.

2) Conquest RP; Meh. Never tried it, probably never will. However, I just want to say this; You've done it in the past, and it didn't work out.

3) Not making an impact; There are at least a million intelligent beings on Azeroth. I feel that being able to make a ripple in the playerbase is enough.

4) No RPG books; I approve of this.

[Scout]

It makes me sad that it took a huge wave of absences for this thread to get posted. I wish this was something that could have been addressed sooner.

[Kretol]

I think it's a bit ideal that it was posted after the drama died down a bit so there'd be less of a chance for folks to be posting in rage-mode and more chance of rational thought.

[Saronsen]

I may not be the most vocal person here, nor very active on the forums, but I've formed an opinion from lurking through threads, and my own personal experiences.

Removing prestiges. While it removes the ability to have massive combat bonuses, which are more than capable of ruining combat oriented events, it takes out a huge chunk of roleplay possibilities. You will no longer have the chance for your character to become 'greater' than what they could normally accomplish. Like a Dragonsworn, just as an example.

Your character did something amazing, or perhaps just a bunch of small good (or evil) deeds, and they were noticed by someone in that dragonflight. Just meeting a dragon could alter your characters development greatly. And more so what they do to affect the world. Players often roleplay so they can have an effect on the world. If this never happens, even slightly, some tend to become disappointed with their roleplay, and eventually just grow bored, or even quit. EDIT: Didn't quite make a point here. Basically, I say keep prestiges. Allow them to have their 'advantages' in say, trust fights, but nothing for rollfights. It's up to the players how things should work. Prestiges add all sorts of variety, and you'd just be taking out so many opportunities with a full removal of prestiges.

This brings up my next opinion. Keeping players from being able to affect the world, even slightly, is bad. Players don't need to destroy Stormwind to have an effect on the world. They don't need to defeat a powerful demon or whatever. But it's nice to have people recognize you for what you've done, especially NPCs that GMs may create for events. If a good NPC did a double take of someone after hearing their name, and shook their hand after a few words, that'd make a player feel accomplished, more than you'd imagine. Or perhaps an evil character getting shot glances, or insulted by various NPCs upon learning who they are. It's all extremely satisfying, atleast to me. Would I want my evil warlock whispered about by players or NPCs in the world? Damn straight. Would I want my Paladin to get a random "Thank you" from a guard or citizen in Stormwind? Definitely. What it feels like right now, is that your character just is. No matter what they do in any events, no matter how evil or good they are, it never has an effect.

A single person in our world could alter the lives of hundreds, thousands, or millions. For better or for worse. Why can't a player alter the lives of the people in Azeroth?


Next, conquest RP. This is a very, very touchy thing. We don't want players making areas unable to be RP'd in, and I can understand that entirely. But, in my opinion that is being abused by Asholme. Asholme is advertised as a neutral city. This means that anyone could come there, and there would be no bias. Except, that's the exact opposite of what Asholme is. Demons and Necromancers are top dogs here, and Light users are arrested/enslaved/killed if they use their powers there. That is not neutral. Booty Bay is neutral. Goblins don't care who you are, just don't cost them money, or cause problems. Asholme is evil.
What is my point in this? We can do nothing about Asholme. They can sell slaves, practice necromancy, summon demons, let demons gather, etc etc, and we can't attack them or anything, simply because the rules say so. Sure, you can bring some people and fight the evil players there, but you'd lose simply because: A. The rules demand it, and B. NPCs always win in fights when GMs consider them 'guards.' I'm not saying Conquest RP should be allowed. I'm saying the rules protecting RP should not be abused, like Asholme.

The books not being Canon, I don't know. Never read them, doesn't affect me. If anything above doesn't make sense, do let me know. I often have trouble getting my point across, or wording it oddly.

[Djura]

Next, conquest RP. This is a very, very touchy thing. We don't want players making areas unable to be RP'd in, and I can understand that entirely. But, in my opinion that is being abused by Asholme. Asholme is advertised as a neutral city. This means that anyone could come there, and there would be no bias. Except, that's the exact opposite of what Asholme is. Demons and Necromancers are top dogs here, and Light users are arrested/enslaved/killed if they use their powers there. That is not neutral. Booty Bay is neutral. Goblins don't care who you are, just don't cost them money, or cause problems. Asholme is evil.
What is my point in this? We can do nothing about Asholme. They can sell slaves, practice necromancy, summon demons, let demons gather, etc etc, and we can't attack them or anything, simply because the rules say so. Sure, you can bring some people and fight the evil players there, but you'd lose simply because: A. The rules demand it, and B. NPCs always win in fights when GMs consider them 'guards.' I'm not saying Conquest RP should be allowed. I'm saying the rules protecting RP should not be abused, like Asholme.

Spoilered for possible offense.

Spoiler:

No it is not being abused. It is a GM made area, if it was abused, it'd be gone in a flash. Basically, Asholme is the opposite of Stormwind. In Stormwind, a Light wielder is respected and praised, and someone using fel/shadow/necromancy is deeply frowned upon. If the fel/shadow/necromancy users started flaunting their power in front of the guards, do you think they'd be allowed? Answer is, no. They'd be booted out of the city or worse. However, they are tolerated if they keep quiet and don't cause trouble.

In Asholme, you have the opposite of that. Fel/shadow/necromancy users are allowed to flaunt and do their evil business. Light users are treated the same as fel/shadow/necromancy users in Stormwind. You are free to stay, but don't you go and show off your Light and holiness. You will receive harsh punishments if you do.

Edit: Goblins will also sell you as slaves if you break their business. They do not give a damn if you're some Light wielder or a fel user, you're worth all the same to them. And neutral can be defined in many ways. Neutral can mean it's not affiliated with any of the two major factions. Neutral is not just 'we accept you for who you are', but also 'we do not affiliate ourselves with anyone except ourselves'. Take a look at the goblins. All they want is money, they don't care who they get it from, as long as they get it.

I do not mean to offend, I am simply elaborating what I think.

[kindle135]

I remember awhile back there was a newspaper IC thread somewhere, another one of those could allow players to make note of anything notable they've done and have less of a need for huge awesome events that change the world.

For example, there's an event and the event ends in a zeppelin blowing up over Stranglethorn Vale, there could be a corresponding forum post of "Generic Stranglethorn Newsletter: A Zeppelin Blew Up Again." and then the post could detail that.

I'm sure the IC forum is supposed to somewhat serve this purpose but a subforum as such would be much more convenient... Just a thought.

[Kaghuros]

This leads to the aftermath of the removal, where one of two things are likely to happen: one, we will throw something else out there which will allow people to play certain variant concepts without the restrictive definitions of the prestige system and without the roll bonuses that made it problematic; or two, we'll not replace it, and as a result some of the titles that once were regulated would become freely rollable by players. (I can't say all, due to reasons of power scale and model change ickiness, but still.)

Full. Stop.

I am behind this all the way. That's basically everything I want. I don't even need to post anything else in this topic, I am joyous. I also can't see why the existing character model change forum can't be extended to these types of things too if needed.

Don't know what anyone else it gonna take out of this thread, but I am now more than satisfied.