Possibilities and Variants

[Rigley]

I won't be typing over-long, as it's 8 in the morning here and I haven't slept, so my typing is all loopy. Don't ask, just one of them nights.

I spoke with Kretol a few hours prior, chatting over what was said and expressing my thoughts and hearing his in return. I'm re-evaluating my stance and collecting my thoughts, trying to find a way to convey my thoughts while at the same time allowing for others to have a degree of creativity available to them. While I haven't completely changed by stance, I do recognize that my way of speaking may make me come across harsher than I intend, doesn't fully articulate why I think the way I do, and that my viewpoint is also perhaps a little narrower than it needs to be.

I would ask that, for now, we keep this thread on-topic, as to whether we'll be going with the variant system or not. Other arguments on things like playing characters with X or Y abilities can be discussed in another thread, when I find way to better formulate my thoughts and I'm not half-asleep. Which might take a while. I am, after all, a cranky old bastard who never likes to admit he's wrong, even on little things.

Get off my lawn.

See, you should just let me be your PR guy from now on. You type something and I'll reword it for you.

That way people will be less angry at you and more confused.

[JVNemesis]

It feels like someone read my mind and translated it into something relatively coherent.
Voted variant.
...
That's all I have to say this time, oddly enough.

[Reese]

So where does Brewmaster fall into this? *hasn't read through the thread in case this has been brought up*

It certainly SOUNDS like one of the redundant classes, which, as you say, will be freely roll-able. But will there be a process as to characters already existing that you want to purse this with?

I assume it'd be like any other class change, no?

[Grakor456]

The votes have settled, so the consensus here is that the variant system has a slight lead, with the votes nonetheless fairly even. This leaves me with the following thought, particularly given the direction this thread went into:

The only unambiguous line (at least, as unambiguous as such things can be) that can be drawn for the variant system would be the line where a character has a significant deviation from his class abilities. The problem would be, that many characters that currently exist would need applications under the new system: things like battle-mages, warriors posing as archers, so on. On the other hand, in this very thread we can see that opinions vary on what should or should not be required, and I get the impression that some players of such characters would be less than impressed if they were told that they need to make an application for a character that they've been playing normally for the past months/years.

I am personally leaning to just no system at all, and will vote accordingly. However, we can still put in the variant system if there is some fair, yet consistent, way to put this in. The problem is that the line is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to draw, despite the core idea of the system being alright in theory.

[Kaghuros]

I definitely agree. We already have an approval process that's applicable for normal classes and civilian characters, and a special section for nobility and variants. GM agreement and an understanding of the role and its lore are all you'd really need to play a different kind of hero.

Whichever we end up getting though, it'll basically be the same system. One will just have an extra form to fill out.

[Psychyn]

Derp. Removed.

[Wuvvums]

Not to criticize but I think tinkers and engineers are interchangeable. I wouldn't want to have to go through a system of variant classes to be able to call my character an engineer given how it's one of the basic professions the game gives you.

But I just mean this as a hypothetical thing.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Also, I think Grakor mentioned that we're not allowing any further Demon Hunters (hallelujah). And Psychyn, no offense intended, but I really feel that list was rather... quickly made, with little or no thought towards individual classes. I.E., I'm pretty sure a Priestess of the Moon would be an application because it's multiclassing. And Wardens, the class, are really Night Elf only. That's like an Orc making a Blood Elf a Shaman, making someone who's race you barely know (and maybe you don't even like) one of your most sacred professions. All I really want to type now., but if you're going to try to make a list, then spend time on each profession.

[Psychyn]

Also, I think Grakor mentioned that we're not allowing any further Demon Hunters (hallelujah). And Psychyn, no offense intended, but I really feel that list was rather... quickly made, with little or no thought towards individual classes. I.E., I'm pretty sure a Priestess of the Moon would be an application because it's multiclassing. And Wardens, the class, are really Night Elf only. That's like an Orc making a Blood Elf a Shaman, making someone who's race you barely know (and maybe you don't even like) one of your most sacred professions. All I really want to type now., but if you're going to try to make a list, then spend time on each profession.

So, from 4 AM to 6 Am in the morning isn't enough for you simply because I've written little about each thing? See, here's my reasoning ;

I looked at the classes with my eyes on their abilities, not their power levels. To be honest, I frankly can't be bothered if a priestess of the moon is a multiclass, or should be prestige because they wear plate. It's just plate, that's it.

As for the Warden, I beg to disagree.

Wardens serve as a kind of law enforcement for several races in Azeroth.

-Several races on Azeroth- wowwiki fact.

They keep members of their race in line, or are employed as guards, assassins, and bounty hunters.

Pretty much Stormwind jail guards, under a fancier name. Night elf only? Seriously doubt it.

I've spend time on it, and honestly expected better feedback from you at least. You could have guessed it to be a WIP as I did indicate I may have missed things, instead of giving feedback on what I missed you merely state it's a crappily made list. Sir, I don't like your post, but I can't be bothered to turn it into an argument over a topic which I've always deemed to be, -incredibly- silly. *Tips hat.

Multiclassing - Don't care about it, only thing it really does is make someone stronger. Are we truly going to grab these things -just for the power- again? Then this new system is as bad as the old already. I looked at RP opportunities, rarities of each class and to their skills. (To a degree.)

A lot of wowwiki things are simply fancy named for stuff you can already do, or would realistically be able to pull off. I don't think that should be restricted.

think tinkers and engineers are interchangeable. I wouldn't want to have to go through a system of variant classes to be able to call my character an engineer given how it's one of the basic professions the game gives you.

I suppose, good point there. It was just the engineering feats they are capable of pulling off that made me wonder.

The earliest of these prodigies developed the phlogiston-powered boilers that allowed the goblins to replace their scout balloons with enormous zeppelins, and the Horde to take its ironclad juggernauts to sea.

But I guess that's simply science and the advancement of things in WoW. Sooner or later someone will think up of that, and it won't have to be some heroic figure. *Nod*

[FlyingSquirrel]

Also, I think Grakor mentioned that we're not allowing any further Demon Hunters (hallelujah). And Psychyn, no offense intended, but I really feel that list was rather... quickly made, with little or no thought towards individual classes. I.E., I'm pretty sure a Priestess of the Moon would be an application because it's multiclassing. And Wardens, the class, are really Night Elf only. That's like an Orc making a Blood Elf a Shaman, making someone who's race you barely know (and maybe you don't even like) one of your most sacred professions. All I really want to type now., but if you're going to try to make a list, then spend time on each profession.

So, from 4 AM to 6 Am in the morning isn't enough for you simply because I've written little about each thing? See, here's my reasoning ;

I looked at the classes with my eyes on their abilities, not their power levels. To be honest, I frankly can't be bothered if a priestess of the moon is a multiclass, or should be prestige because they wear plate. It's just plate, that's it.

As for the Warden, I beg to disagree.

Wardens serve as a kind of law enforcement for several races in Azeroth.

-Several races on Azeroth- wowwiki fact.

They keep members of their race in line, or are employed as guards, assassins, and bounty hunters.

Pretty much Stormwind jail guards, under a fancier name. Night elf only? Seriously doubt it.

I've spend time on it, and honestly expected better feedback from you at least. You could have guessed it to be a WIP as I did indicate I may have missed things, instead of giving feedback on what I missed you merely state it's a crappily made list. Sir, I don't like your post, but I can't be bothered to turn it into an argument over a topic which I've always deemed to be, -incredibly- silly. *Tips hat.

Multiclassing - Don't care about it, only thing it really does is make someone stronger. Are we truly going to grab these things -just for the power- again? Then this new system is as bad as the old already. I looked at RP opportunities, rarities of each class and to their skills. (To a degree.)

A lot of wowwiki things are simply fancy named for stuff you can already do, or would realistically be able to pull off. I don't think that should be restricted.

think tinkers and engineers are interchangeable. I wouldn't want to have to go through a system of variant classes to be able to call my character an engineer given how it's one of the basic professions the game gives you.

I suppose, good point there. It was just the engineering feats they are capable of pulling off that made me wonder.

The earliest of these prodigies developed the phlogiston-powered boilers that allowed the goblins to replace their scout balloons with enormous zeppelins, and the Horde to take its ironclad juggernauts to sea.

But I guess that's simply science and the advancement of things in WoW. Sooner or later someone will think up of that, and it won't have to be some heroic figure. *Nod*

Well, sorry if my previous argument was disrespectful, but I don't see a point in wasting time on something that I don't even think will affect me. Next time, you can just PM me with your grievances against the post itself and I'll see how I can edit it to fit your preferences. Have a nice day.

[Delta]

Pretty much Stormwind jail guards, under a fancier name. Night elf only? Seriously doubt it.

The d20, at least, specifies they are a night elf-only class, and reports there are no recorded instances of a warden taking an apprentice from another race.

I couldn't agree with the comparison to a Stormwind jailer, either. Wardens are adept combatants with a unique skillset, and a revered place in kaldorei society.

Still, it doesn't matter terribly. It depends on which method of class-handling the management chooses to employ, which could well leave the distinctions blurred or even non-existent.

[Psychyn]

The d20, at least, specifies they are a night elf-only class

I thought we weren't looking at the D20 aka D&D books any more, simply because not everybody has them, knows them or is capable of obtaining them. I've always looked at wowwiki myself. While they perhaps got an unique skillset, it doesn't mean we should have one in-game. You can RP anything you wish (That isn't breaking any rules, common sense and all.), without anything special just like Retail as the Admin guys are aiming at a retail-like server.

If I'm wrong with the D20 thing then by all means, buy me some copies of it and ship them home and I'll look further into it. For now, I'm working with what people can easily find on the internet. (And in my opinion, that is how it should be as how can you possibly RP/Play something if you can't find the information easily accessible.)

As for 'Warden', it simply means "An officer who keeps or guards; a keeper; as, the warden of a prison.", I think the fancyness of the name is rather misguiding.

http://ardictionary.com/Warden/507

Though, reading the wow wiki page again it seems I may have missed some things in the late night as it does state ;

They are night elf only, but it is conceivable that a night elf could teach the skills of a warden to a member of another race.

.. Later at the bottom, so derp. It's contradicting itself. Perhaps there are "Wardens" as in law enforcement and "Wardens" as in the unique skillset class. Yet further down the page, I find this ;

http://www.wowpedia.org/Warden_Alturas
http://www.wowpedia.org/Warden_Belamoore

http://www.wowpedia.org/Warden_Nork_Bloodfrenzy
http://www.wowpedia.org/Warden_Hamoot

And so on. Humans, Taurens, Draenei and Night elves all under the same "Warden" category. Who are we to say those NPC's don't got that 'unique' Warden skillset? Perhaps they are indeed, fully fledged and trained Wardens making the class available to all races.

[LostStranger]

...In a completely idle flight of fancy, Starfall is a druid ability.

[Delta]

I thought we weren't looking at the D20 aka D&D books any more, simply because not everybody has them, knows them or is capable of obtaining them. I've always looked at wowwiki myself.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Warden
"This section concerns content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG, and thus is not necessarily canon."

I know we're not looking at the d20 anymore, but it's one of the very few resources that has any easily accessible (and oft parroted on WoWWiki) information on what we formerly knew as prestiges.

I am by no means an expert on this, I was just repeating what I had read.

[Psychyn]

I am by no means an expert on this, I was just repeating what I had read.

You'd believe me to be an expert? I'm probably the only person who has cared the littlest of littleness about this whole subject, but I figured I'd start contributing and help sorting the madness out that has been going on for too long already. ^^

And my post is just the way I see it by all means, I expected feedback, else I wouldn't have posted it but PMed it to the Admins instead.

I suppose if we stop looking at the RPG books entirely, we'd just have the top bar of information to go from stating they have several races of Azeroth in their ranks. (As I assumed) But Night Elves are famous Wardens without a doubt, I can't disagree with that.

This is also the reason why I voted for no system at all, but with the majority of votes going for Variant system, I figured I'd start posting crap and aid in sorting it out at least then. Once again, I haven't looked at their powerlevels for I'm simply indifferent to them.