Help me, CotHi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

[Aphetoros]

It's already happened in the past-- Astus was allowed to make one. (a Rod of Undead Mastery.) Honestly, I think a DK could use one, but it'd be hard for them to create, and I really doubt a DK could control more than one at a time without such a device. I'm pretty sure most of the corpse is needed, and they need not be ashes. If they're blown up, their essence lingers within the corpse like I said, and so you can transplant that energy into a new body.

Undead hold traces of necromantic energy even after they are ripped to shreds. A skilled necromancer, or shadow priest as it were, can manipulate these energies into flowing once more, and bolster them to create life. I also hold firm to the idea that an undead's weaknesses due to resurrection/re-reanimation are as follows (at the least): A weakness of limbs due to any physical damage, curable by one with anatomical and surgical knowledge, or a healer of the undead by using shadow/unholy energies. Lapse in memory, caused by the decaying of memory cells within the brain (the soul still has these memories, it merely cannot access them while alive. This is what I believe in the living also prevents them from recalling their murderer.) Simultaneously, I interject that the undead function similar to fungal creatures due to their natural ability to regain energy via the consumption of living and non-living flesh alike. I believe they somehow process the remnants of energy within the bodies and turn them into necromantic fuel.

[flammos200]

I am insatiable. Here's another salvo.

Death Knight plagues. With the freeform system we can make new spells, so would it be acceptable for us to create new/variant plagues as well, with some IC work? Nothing game-breaking (the ones we have are already pretty effective IC, or should be at least) but it's something my Knight is interested in pursuing.

Resurrecting undead. So to speak. When you're trying to resurrect an undead player, how much of their original corpse is needed?
Bit of a vague question, I suppose. Basically, if a player's corpse is burned to ash, can you still resurrect him? Or if you only have, say, his arm, can you...transplant it, I suppose, onto another corpse, and resurrect him from there?
This is...still pretty vague, even for me. Feel free to just speculate.

Undead minions. Though WoW only allows us to control a single ghoul at a time, is it reasonable to assume that we can ICly control/create more than a single ghoul at a time, particularly for Unholy-specialized Knights? I haven't been able to find anything to the contrary, but that could just be poor reading comprehension, I suppose. There's always Army of the Dead to fall back on, so I pretty much just answered my own question, but...thoughts are still welcome.

The above ties into this next topic, which I've been thinking about for quite a while now: Controlling Undead!
I could go into my long DnD-inspired thought process (cough Rod of Undead Mastery cough)about how I got to this idea, but I'll spare you that...mess.
So!
If DKs control their ghouls with their minds (pardon the gross simplification), given the right focus item, I guess, could they extend that control over minions they didn't raise?
Basically, would it be possible to create an item (through much IC effort/events) that would allow a DK to cast the equivalent of a Charm/Mind Control spell on those roaming undead I mentioned previously/other summoned ghouls? It's something I've been thinking about since I posed that question a while back. If we're feeling particularly generous, could this effect be extended to players as well, if appropriate rules for its execution were in place?
Or is this a bad idea and I should feel bad about it?

Any thoughts/feedback anyone has are welcome.

First off, DK Plagues! Now, one can have quite a bit of fun with that. From physical sludge-born plagues, to corrupting blood, to all sorts of other infectious goodies. There's one problem, tho'. Paladins. They're usually immune to every disease, mundane and magical, provided their faith is strong enough. In fact, that's how the Knights of the Silver Hand survived the Plague of Lordaeron.

Sure you can experiment with the concept and figure out new and delicious afflictions to plague people with. I hear necrosis is a particularly pleasant route for plague-makin'.

Rezzing Undead! I've always treated the resurrection of undead characters and creatures the same as that of normal characters and creatures. Therefore, one only needs as much as one does in the normal mortal's case; That being damn-near anything, any tiny bit of their body, be it a pinch of ashes, a tooth, or a few cells.

Now, grafting pieces of an Undead body onto another Undead body will not resurrect it. Instead, the larger body will take control. So, for instance, if you have a one-armed Ghoul, and you nab an arm off a Forsaken and stick it on your poor little Ghouly-face, said face-nommer will gain control of the new limb, in my opinion.

Minions! - 'Tis quite reasonable to be able to control more than one minion at a time, though quite taxing on the character's willpower as well. Imagine Pokemon. You usually fight with one Pokemon out, as controlling and commanding more than one is harder. But not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.

Now, the difficulty is that permanent Undead, such as Unholy DK Ghouls or Necromancer minions are harder to make - due to them requiring the grafting of a soul into a corpse - than temporary Undead like the ones produced by the Army of the Dead spell.

Generally, however, it is typically recommended that you only have one Undead minion out at a time, 'n keep the rest in the Realm of Shadows.

Controlling Undead - Wellp. I've always treated temporary Undead, like those created by the Army of the Dead, as lacking in any willpower and sentience, being mere shells, soulless bodies that move according to the thoughts of their creator. Also, they can't be very far from their creator, or they return to a completely lifeless state.

However, permanent undead minions, such as Necromancer-created undead and Unholy DeeKay ghouls, I've treated as having the same skills and sentience as the soul that was grafted into their body... This includes speech skills, tactical skills, weapon-wielding and armor-wearing skills, etc. Buuuut... their degree of independent action is typically set by the creator. Which means that since they have a sentient spirit bound to them, they're harder to control, and the farther they are, the worse that control becomes.

Without a Helm of Dominance-esque artifact(Like Redis' Shadow Law), Undead minions typically stay around their creator, or in the Realm of Shadows, and can't go really far away from their maker, in my opinion.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[JVNemesis]

I love it when you two post. It makes me smile.
Thanks again for the responses.

Apheteros, would there happen to be an IC thread, or something related to how Astus made his rod, that I could use to get some ideas? Or do you have some notes you'd be willing to give me a look at?
I'd love you forever, and never comment on your super-long TL; DRs again, I swear.

[Zenethen]

While the Lich King is on topic, it makes me snicker inside at the following events;

Arthas is like 'Finally free' when he gets killed.

Tirion Fordring, Leader of the Organization formed TO DESTROY THE SCOURGE was the one that crowned the new Lich King

Bolvar Fordragon, Hero of the Alliance, becomes a dirt-bag who hates the 'living' after he's crowned.

Terenas is just like 'Oh yah, I died way back when, but I was still in the sword for advice purposes.'

Fordring and Fordragon ironically (Wink wink elbow elbow) have the same first five letters in their last names.

If Terenas popped out of Frostmourne, why didn't Uther pop out too? He was killed by dat azz too, yah?

Fordring is like 14 ft tall in the dungeon, yet he's like 5' 8" in cinematic. Same with Arthas, who is like... 20 ft tall in the dungeon, yet he's like... Shorter then Fordring in cinematic.

[FlyingSquirrel]

It's also a necro.

[JVNemesis]

Bit of a stretch calling that on topic, but now that it's been necro'd and I remember this thread (I need to do that subscription post notification...thing), I have more questions!

Draenei -> Eredar: How did this transformation occur? Draenei that absorb large amounts of fel become Broken, right? So, was it just...Sargeras handwaved it with his wizardly powers, and a one-time deal? Or is there another way the Legion goes about converting more Eredar? My draenei lore skills are...bad.

Death Knight Creation Ritual: I've heard a few different things on this subject. Did Arthas raise them himself, because that seems...both inefficient and beneath him. If not, was it just a bunch of Scourge groupies wiggling their fingers and suddenly the group of corpses were diamonds/death knights? Would it even be considered a ritual, implying longer than an instant/short cast time?

Counterspells: Do these work against the different magic...types, I suppose? As in, arcane vs. divine.

[Kira13]

Draenei -are- Eredar. Well not anymore, since they call themselves draenei. But yeah, the first draenei were all Eredar. Then the demons came and got most of them eredar. The rest became draenei, and followed the.. really old guy with a name I can't remember. The oldest draenei to live. That.

On the rest, I am not sure.

EDIT: Some death knights were, indeed, raised by the Lich King. That, being Arthas. But those are 2nd generation, which are not available for RP.

[JVNemesis]

Oh. I thought there was more of a physical species divide that developed, like high elves/blood elves. Thanks.

[flammos200]

Bit of a stretch calling that on topic, but now that it's been necro'd and I remember this thread (I need to do that subscription post notification...thing), I have more questions!

Draenei -> Eredar: How did this transformation occur? Draenei that absorb large amounts of fel become Broken, right? So, was it just...Sargeras handwaved it with his wizardly powers, and a one-time deal? Or is there another way the Legion goes about converting more Eredar? My draenei lore skills are...bad.

Death Knight Creation Ritual: I've heard a few different things on this subject. Did Arthas raise them himself, because that seems...both inefficient and beneath him. If not, was it just a bunch of Scourge groupies wiggling their fingers and suddenly the group of corpses were diamonds/death knights? Would it even be considered a ritual, implying longer than an instant/short cast time?

Counterspells: Do these work against the different magic...types, I suppose? As in, arcane vs. divine.

Draenei -> Man'ari Eredar; First off, the Broken were and are a very unusual case, in that they not so much changed because of Fel exposure, but rather because of the mist that the Orcs had with them - which admittedly contained Fel, but the mist itself was the mutagen, and not the Fel energies.

If you apply a good, large amount of Fel energy to a Draenei, they will become Man'ari Eredar. Basically the same way a member of the normal races becomes Fel-Sworn is the same for the transformation from Draenei to Man'ari Eredar.

Edit: Draenei before leaving Argus called themselves Eredar. They renamed themselves Draenei after leaving, a word in their language that meant 'Exiles'. The remaining Eredar were corrupted, and are generally known as Man'ari Eredar. ("Gifted" Eredar)

Death Knight Creation Ritual: The general consensus from what I've read and seen is that Playable Death Knights were not really raised by the Lich King, but rather by his servants. Usually, Liches performed the Ritual, but a group of Necromancers worked just as well. It's hinted at that it was a good deal more complex and time-consuming than the usual undead-raising, but nothing to the matter is really explained outright, to my dismay.

Regardless, from the fact that Death Knights are generally superior Undead, sans the Brain Rot, and held in perfect biostasis, you can extrapolate that it was a good deal harder to cast than normal Undead-raising. Thus the need for multiple Necromancers or a Lich.

Counterspells: Depends on how you treat them. Personally, I have always maintained that Arcane casters(thus Magi and 'Locks) can only counterspell other Arcane casters, and Divine Casters can only counterspell other Divine Casters.

Now, the reasoning behind this is that the caster of the Counterspell needs to know the deep and intimate workings of a spell in order to properly counter it. So, for instance a mage faced with a fireball will be able to make an incredibly quick calculation and judge just how much cold to apply to the incoming ball of flaming death to nullify it. Whereas, when faced with a Holy Smite? Putting up a Mana Shield is easier. But a Shadowpriest could counter a Smite with no real issue, though again, they'd only be able to counterspell other Divine casters.

S'yeah. That's my take on things.

[Kira13]

EDIT: Some death knights were, indeed, raised by the Lich King. That, being Arthas. But those are 2nd generation, which are not available for RP.

[Sol]

Draenei -> Eredar: I think it definitely has something to do with Sargeras' involvement, yes, although there's the implication that Draenei can become Eredar by wielding fel magic in a few Bloodmyst Isle quests if I recall correctly. I think the difference between Draenei -> Broken and Draenei -> Eredar is the difference between wielding fel magic (as in, your average man'ari) and being exposed to fel magic (as in, Farseer Nobundo and the other poor bastards). They're both variants of Draenei Fel-sworn, essentially, but the Eredar is the Draenei who wants to mutate and the Broken is the Draenei who does not. That's just my take on it, it's not addressed in lore beyond what little I've cited.

Death Knight Creation: My personal belief is that it's definitely a ritual. When I was making Halaki about two years ago, now, I had a very vivid image of how the third-generation DKs were made. You've have stacks upon stacks of corpses who'd been deemed worthy and squadrons of ghouls working diligently to haul them into the ritual circles of tireless necromancers, who would engage in a lengthy dark rite to imbue the Death Knight with undeath and the powers of the unholy before the same ghouls would lead the newly risen soldier off to the armoury to gear up. Repeat ad infinitum. Like a conveyor belt, essentially, because the Scourge were almost certainly putting out third-gens at an industrial capacity for the Havenshire campaign. I'd say the creation of a third-generation Death Knight was far, -far- from easy, but not the sort of thing you'd need to call down senior management to do for you.

Counterspells: I can't speak with any authority on this, but my gut instinct is 'no'. Arcane and divine magics are fundamentally different. However, this would severely negate the utility of a Counterspell, so I'm not quite sure. Maybe there are specific variants of Counterspells designed to counter specific schools of magic? I don't know, but it's food for thought.

EDIT: Flammos is a much wiser fleshling than I, and a faster typer to boot. :P

[JVNemesis]

See, I knew posting this when the server was down would get more responses than usual (though flammos is always around when I post here, which is awesome).

Nice stuff on the Draenei/Eredar/Broken. Didn't know any of that, and it gives me a few...ideas.

DK stuff sounds good (and much better).

Counterspells...yeah, the mage I'm planning to roll will only be able to counterspell other arcane spells. I thought I had the fundamentals of how the ability worked down, but doesn't hurt to check.

Thanks for the help, guys.

[Kira13]

Feel free to necro whenever you have new questions! xD

[JVNemesis]

I'm back. Feed me.

Sargeras's Offer to the Eredar: I'm a bit confused as to how this whole thing actually went down. Was it along the lines of "Okay, here's my ultimatum, stand on this side of the line if you agree with me, and that side if you're gonna cut and run" or more like "Hey I'm glad everyone agrees with me, this is grand and-hey, what's that note you're passing around? Hey wait, why are you running, Velen?!"

Less silly translation: Did Velen's followers meet in secret and agree to flee? What was the criteria for who stayed with Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden and who fled with Velen? Those who wanted arcane power/knowledge vs. those who smelled something fishy about the deal?

Wielding Fel: How does one go about channeling fel? All I've gotten so far is "Some arcanists can cast fel spells, perhaps after drinking demon blood" which is only...partially helpful. Is drinking demon blood the only way to harness fel magic? Because that seems rather inefficient. Are warlocks just so practiced at reaching for it that the magic comes to them as easily as regular arcane does for mages?
And there's no movie-style "I'm a very mad mage right now, so suddenly I can channel fel magic even though I never have before", correct?

Fel Weapons: For clarification (because I wasn't aware of this until recently), here's what Wowwiki has to say on the subject:

Fel magic is pure, evil and arcane; it resides in the blood of demons. This blood has magical properties; it addicts arcane magic users and can be used to create evil weapons. When a weapon is forged in demon blood, it becomes a fel weapon. It glows with a foul, yellow-green fire and deals extra damage to good-aligned opponents.

Since the Burning Legion returned to Azeroth, the world's heroes have encountered fel weapons and fel magic at an increasing frequency. As demon cults continue to fester and grow in Desolace, Ashenvale Forest, and other remote corners, gruesome sacrifices are held to entice demons into giving their blood in trade. The cultists use their blood to enchant the weapons that they hope will bring about their masters' ultimate victory.

Are these one of the 'RPG only and therefore we don't use them' things? Or is this a legitimate thing to show up on CotH? Anyone know of someone using one IC already?

And finally...where do you (people who consistently answer these somewhat obscure questions) find your information? I'm all over the interwebs, and all I find is enough vague information to let me ask a question here, and then I get "oh, well, here you go" and I'm sitting there going "...where are you finding this, and why can't I?" Is it in the RPG books?

Thanks again in advance.


Edit: Also, Polymorphing. Are there any specific limitations on what can be polymorphed, and into what said thing can be polymorphed?

[Aphetoros]

At the height of their society, the eredar's three most prominent leaders, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and Velen, were approached by Sargeras, the Fallen Titan. Sargeras claimed he was impressed by the work of the eredar and wanted to supply them with even more power and knowledge in exchange for their loyalty. But while Kil'jaeden and Archimonde readily accepted the deal, Velen had doubts. After touching the Ata'mal crystal in its temple, he had a vision of the future that filled him with dread. He saw the dark future his people were heading towards: siding with the dark titan Sargeras and transformed into demons. Velen saw the Legion in all its terrible might and witnessed the destruction it would wreak upon all of creation. He hastened to warn Kil'jaeden and Archimonde, but they dismissed his concerns and proceeded to profess loyalty to Sargeras. Together, the latter transformed a majority of their people into an insidious race of warlocks and later allied themselves with the Burning Legion.[2]

Velen knew he and those who shared his concerns would have to flee Argus, but the impossibility of such a feat brought him to despair. At that time, the Ata'mal crystal started to glow and arose from its pedestal. A voice came to Velen and explained that it was one of the naaru, a race of sapient energy beings bent on stopping the Burning Legion. The naaru offered to take Velen and any other like-minded eredar to safety, and instructed Velen to bring the Ata'mal crystal, revealing that it had been a gift from the naaru in ancient times and a beacon by which the naaru would find Velen and his followers. Deeply relieved, Velen gathered the other eredar loyal to him.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Draenei#Argus

Essentially from my understanding of this, Sargeras disguised himself and was like, "I want to help you and give you more magical power than you can imagine." Velen, being the spiritual and wise leader wanted to consider the offer more deeply than Kil'jaeden and Archimonde, who were ready to instantly accept. Velen had been born 'special' one might say-- he was granted the gift of Sight. As in, future sight.

Sargeras appeared before the leaders of the eredar. Presenting himself as a benevolent entity, Sargeras offered to transform the eredar into an even more powerful race of beings, with the goal of unifying all the races of the universe. In return, they would serve Sargeras as his perfect spellcasters, spreading his universal union with every world they touched. Two of the eredar's triumvirate of leaders, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, along with two-thirds of the eredar population, took the offer. Only one eredar leader realized the true horror of Sargeras' Burning Crusade: Velen.

Velen, unlike Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, had the gift of "Sight", and was granted a vision by the naaru K'ure of the truth of Sargeras' plot. The utopia that Sargeras had promised was a lie, much to Velen's horror. He at first saw himself at the head of a vast eredar force of the Light, spreading the gifts of their race to worlds beyond count, as Sargeras had said; the next moment, he saw the truth. Sargeras had no intention of unification. His vision was one of death, of razing entire worlds to bare rock and ashes. And the eredar were not to be the bringers of enlightenment with their new powers; they would be man'ari, twisted, malevolent shadows of their former selves devoted to the destruction of worlds for the glory of Sargeras' terrible Burning Crusade. Horrified, Velen desperately prayed for guidance. K'ure appeared before him, reassured Velen that his plight had been heard, and instructed him to gather up his followers and go to the highest mountain on Argus, during the longest day of the year. Velen and his followers barely escaped the newly created Burning Legion. From then on, Kil'jaeden vowed to hunt down Velen and his followers and slaughter them, even if it took a thousand years.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Velen

The Naaru K'ure appeared before Velen and told him to gather his followers on the highest peak of Argus's mountains during the longest day of the year. It is presumed the Naaru whisked them away in some magical spaceship, probably Oshu'gun as that is where K'ure currently resides. Basically it came down to Velen trying to warn the Eredar of his vision of horror, and those who believed their wise leader, and those who thought he was a religious loon. He gathered those who would believe him, likely a small number (presumably 1/3 of the Eredar race since it was a Triumvirate) and they fled.

---


Wielding Fel is similar to wielding arcane magic. Just remember that one isn't always a mage before becoming a warlock-- there are people who are raised as a warlock from birth. I'm not really sure if I can source this otherwise, but in the RPG warlocks delved far into conjuration and thusly conjured their power from the nether, somewhat similar to mages, but from different sources. I think it also may involve making a pact with demons to use their energy, but that's less of a pact and more of a binding.