Help me, CotHi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

[JVNemesis]

I feel inordinately pleased with myself for that title.
But anyway.

I have several questions I would like answers to, but haven't been able to come up with on my own. So I turn to the wizards here for some information or (positive, constructive) debate.

Have at you.

Death Gates: I've heard a number of different lines of logic on this. Do death gates only go to Acherus, and if so, why? If you're using the Plane of Shadow to travel (although I don't believe that's specified anywhere), why can't you pick a different destination?

Death Grip: If we're going by the in-game tool-tip, you harness dark energy (or something) to pull a target towards you. I personally have, since I made my death knight forever ago, used it to throw stuff all over the place, never actually giving it any thought until someone told me that it can only pull and that I'm bad and I should feel bad. Which got me thinking; if we can do it one way, what's the problem with reversing it? If a death knight is adept enough to use that energy to pull, why's pushing out of the question?

And, to tie these both together, I'd like to direct people to the Tormentor's ability section. Now yes, I am aware the prestiges are debunk now, but with the free-form system that's in place, is it reasonable for a skilled death knight to have some of these abilities, like alternate death gate destinations, or do more than just pull with death grip? I've broached this subject a few times, but I still get people jumping on me for it. Isn't that what the free-form was for? Variation? I just really don't see the big issue with it, but...that's me. Opinions are welcome.

On a somewhat related note:

Second Generation Death Knights: How many are still clomping around at this point in the timeline? (These Knights, for reference) While we seen a handful of named ones in game (including a bunch that were in the randomly generated names for WC3 multiplayer), is it reasonable to assume that the ones we didn't get didn't simply keel over when Arthas was killed? Would his death affect their powers/runeblades at all?

Continuing with that line of thought, what's the deal with all of the minor Scourge left over in the Eastern Kingdoms (Duskwood, Plaguelands, etc) now that Arthas is gone? Skeletons, ghouls, zombies, things like that. Are they just wandering around mindlessly, as per usual? Is Bolvar messing with their heads in some way?

It's a DK day, apparently, because Death Knight Runes are next on my list. I was under the impression all they placed runes on were their weapons, hence all the hubbub about runeblades. I've had someone tell me recently, though, that DKs throw runes on all their gear, including armor, to enhance it. Can I get a confirm/deny/speculative guess on that?

And now for one completely unrelated (almost) query: Enchanting. How much of an impact/advantage is reasonable if your character's equipment is ICly enchanted? To clarify the question: You have a sword. It can chop through good armor in a few solid swings. However, if you give it the Executioner (armor piercing) enchant, is it suddenly a lightsaber, cleaving through everything with impunity? Or, take your chain shirt. With the Defense enchant, does it suddenly give the protective qualities of plate armor? Somewhere in between?
Or is this one of those "Use your head, silly." sort of things that just made a neat whistling sound as it flew over my head?

Also, does anyone actually play an IC enchanter? I haven't been able to find one.


So there we go. The random thoughts that've been rolling around in my head for past week or so. Feel free to comment, respond to one question, all the questions, or tell me to leave my death knight alone and go do my math homework instead.

[Aphetoros]

Duskwood undead aren't Scourge. They're Morbent Fel's undead (an unaffiliated necromancer).

My Dwarf Falstan is an IC enchanter.

I'm pretty sure DKs don't rune their armor, but I don't think anything stops them...

Death Gate -- I'm sure it's possible, whether it's allowed or not is the question.

Death Grip -- See Death Gate.

[Kaghuros]

I've always used Death Gate as a portal tool to other places, just like Mage portals don't only go to major cities. My general view is that if magic can be made to do one thing it can be made to do similar things with a bit of extra work. On that note, Death Grip does not do anything other than pull things. That said, you could cast another, similar, spell to push things or move things if your character could figure out the esoteric differences between pushing and pulling with shadow magic.

Minor Scourge actually pose an interesting problem. I think it's said (I forget where, though) that minor Scourge lords like Liches and powerful Death Knights (essentially free-thinking undead) actually took the reins of the mindless nearby during the change in lich kings and are controlling what are essentially undead fiefdoms in and around Lordaeron.

For runed armor I've no idea, but I don't think it works the same way as an enchantment because of what runes are used for (in the sense that runes focus a Knights abilities, so if you runed your armor you could cast without a blade but I don't think it would impact anything else). Enchantments, on the other hand, are pretty sweet. Fire enchanted sword? Good to go, burn people. Though keep in mind that enchanting reagents are bizarre and hard to find, so each enchantment is essentially the unique work of an artisan and costs prime gold to acquire.

[JVNemesis]

Duskwood undead aren't Scourge. They're Morbent Fel's undead (an unaffiliated necromancer).

Oh.
Whoops.
Yeah, just went and looked it up. I saw his name and immediately connected it with one of the random WC3 Lich names. Thanks for that.

I've always used Death Gate as a portal tool to other places, just like Mage portals don't only go to major cities. My general view is that if magic can be made to do one thing it can be made to do similar things with a bit of extra work. On that note, Death Grip does not do anything other than pull things. That said, you could cast another, similar, spell to push things or move things if your character could figure out the esoteric differences between pushing and pulling with shadow magic.

Hmm. Interesting.
That's going in the notebook.

Minor Scourge actually pose an interesting problem. I think it's said (I forget where, though) that minor Scourge lords like Liches and powerful Death Knights (essentially free-thinking undead) actually took the reins of the mindless nearby during the change in lich kings and are controlling what are essentially undead fiefdoms in and around Lordaeron.

This is kind of what I was thinking/hoping. Cool.

Enchantments, on the other hand, are pretty sweet. Fire enchanted sword? Good to go, burn people. Though keep in mind that enchanting reagents are bizarre and hard to find, so each enchantment is essentially the unique work of an artisan and costs prime gold to acquire.

Lovely.
Thanks for your help, guys.

[Aphetoros]

ALSO.

Morbent Fel just happens to be a necromancer with the same name as the Lich from the Burning Legion.

...and he somehow happens to turn intoa lich in cata.

<.<

[flammos200]

My interpretation.

Death Gates are portals/pathways through the Realm of Shadows, that allow the Death Knight to traverse them to any previously visited location. So, any place you're familiar with, you can go freely. Like a mage and their portals.

Death Grips are effectively an improved form of Telekinesis. You can pick up and hold objects in them, pull them, toss them, or make a Dancing Runeblade that fights held aloft by a Death Grip.

2nd Gen DKs remain generally in the ranks of either Mograine or Bolvar, to my knowledge. Since Bolvar is the new Lich King, he is keeping tight control over the Scourge's troops as a jailor of the damned, to prevent the mindless undead hordes from ravaging the world. But that's just the mass.

The rest've been freed and are going about willy-nilly, under the command of Undead Lords, as iterated by the previous posters. /nod.

Death Knight Runes I've always treated as the stuff that goes onto Runeblades. Since Runeblades are nigh-indestructible(Two GMs confirmed that no mortal weapon ever shattered a Runeblade that wasn't another Runeblade. Cress'n Hawk, back when I was playing Elil and she wanted to figure out a way to shatter Jidaeo's runeblade), putting runes on armor to 'runeblade-ify' it would be a little bit OP. But no one says you can't do it with a single gauntlet or a helm, or the underside of a silver ring.

Additionally, I've always considered the runes that Death Knight use to be quite different from Runemaster/Inscription Runes, for example. Death Knight runes are Eredun to my knowledge, due to the Scourge being created by the Legion, ultimately.

Enchanting is generally free-form. Make feather-light armor, or a sword wreathed in flames if you want to, but one thing you should do is use common sense. Consider what it would be like going -against- someone armed and armored in enchanted gear like yours, and weigh the odds carefully. Simply be respectful and don't go into OP territory.

Speaking of Lightsabers, I've actually managed to find the Argent Defender and Teebu's Blazing Longsword in the WoW RPG books. And like Lightsabers, they ignore armor, oddly enough through the logic that the blade is not emanated from the hilt but rather that is a freely standing ray of magic shaped like a blade and affixed to a hilt. So basically, the 'ray' of magic exists within the armor if you put it in there and cuts the person inside. Which means that you could slash people through walls...

Anyhow, best not go there. It's just begging for abuse, and shows a lack of fair-play.

Basically? Feel free to be creative, so long as you keep the spirit of fair-play alive.

[JVNemesis]

Thanks for the in-depth response. Much appreciated!
Lots of good stuff for my notebook here.

[JVNemesis]

Bump, with another question!

Resurrecting Undead/Forsaken/Death Knights: How does.

I searched through the forum a bit, and wasn't able to find an answer. How does one go about resurrecting them back into...being (un)dead? Seems awfully strange to me that light/nature magic would return the corpse to its undead state.

Which opens another avenue of thought for me. Can Death Knights/Necromancers perform a resurrection on Forsaken/Death Knights with Raise Dead in a similar manner that priests/druids/shamans/what have yous do for the living?

[flammos200]

I've always had Death Knights rezzed by Necromancers, Death Knights or NPC Liches(Like the ones in Acherus), as well as Shadow Priests.

It makes sense that negative energies would be able to bring back the unlife in an undead. Same way undead Val'kyr raise Forsaken and Death Knights.

We know for certain that Forsaken use Necromancers and Shadow Priests for healing and repairing their bodies, so it makes sense that other Undead, such as Death Knights, use the same.

While I don't see a Death Knight being brought back into Undeath with the Light or Nature, I haven't found anything to scream that it can't be done... So, theoretically? It could happen... somehow... we just don't know how.

Practically, though? Unholy/Undeath/Shadow = Really good to Undead. Even to the point of rezzin'.

[JVNemesis]

Lovely. That makes me smile.

Thanks again!

[Kaghuros]

Priestly Light magic could return the undead to their undead form. This is because it returns the body to the "default settings" that the soul has become used to, and since undeath is an affliction of the soul, the soul returns the body to undeath as its natural state.

[Uthaniel]

See...

...I don't think undead even die in the first place. I mean, unless you use the light, sure.

But if they're blown up or whatever, the soul is still stuck to the remains. They just need healing.

I'm of the opinion an undead exorcised by the light would be gone permanently, but we circumvent this on CotH, so you can pretty much go with whichever explanation if it makes a semblance of sense.

[Xigo]

Here's my interpretation.

In WoW, when you die, your soul leaves the body. That is when you are technically considered dead.

Soul Drain from Warlocks only gets them a soul gem if they use it soon after someone's death (or during!) because the soul vacates the body soon after one is deceased.

Light/Shamanistic/Druidic resurrection is calling out to the soul from the afterlife, asking if it wants to return to the realm of the living, and enter a body that the soul was used to prior to leaving.

Necromancy is just going 'Hey dead guy. Screw you, you're coming back to us in this shamble of a corpse. No ifs, ands, or buts.'

Of course, permission must be asked for from the player prior to using necromancy. Or else there'd be issues.

[JVNemesis]

Cool stuff. Thanks guys.

[Aphetoros]

I've always had Death Knights rezzed by Necromancers, Death Knights or NPC Liches(Like the ones in Acherus), as well as Shadow Priests.

It makes sense that negative energies would be able to bring back the unlife in an undead. Same way undead Val'kyr raise Forsaken and Death Knights.

We know for certain that Forsaken use Necromancers and Shadow Priests for healing and repairing their bodies, so it makes sense that other Undead, such as Death Knights, use the same.

While I don't see a Death Knight being brought back into Undeath with the Light or Nature, I haven't found anything to scream that it can't be done... So, theoretically? It could happen... somehow... we just don't know how.

Practically, though? Unholy/Undeath/Shadow = Really good to Undead. Even to the point of rezzin'.

In terms of lore, resurrection itself is an extremely difficult and rare thing. The biggest problem with the Forsaken is that they cannot reproduce and they cannot revive the fallen of their population. They do not take lightly to a loss of forces (as seen when Sylvanas mind-controls a large group back into her service.) The Forsaken's biggest difficulty is maintaining numbers, which is why they attempted to free undead from the Scourge.

Due to our rules, though, such a thing is nullified and becomes a fallacy within suspension of belief: we suspend the belief that resurrections are uncommon, and we suspend that the undead are not easily returned to their fragile unlife.

Essentially, the undead thrive due to necromantic energy within their limbs. This is the theoretical life-force a human has, however it is more difficult to destroy. Burn them? Fine. Cut them apart? Alive. Crush them to dust? Dead. To destroy the undead permanently they must be cremated or necromantic energies must be forced back within them.

My belief is that when reanimating a sentient undead you're not bringing them back to life. I look at it more as the creature lost enough energy to be considered dead, but each body part still contains a small amount of trace remnants. These remnants can be manipulated and bolstered with added energies to recreate the effect of unlife within the host body of the soul.

TL;DR: Undead hold traces of necromantic energy even after they are ripped to shreds. A skilled necromancer, or shadow priest as it were, can manipulate these energies into flowing once more, and bolster them to create life. I also hold firm to the idea that an undead's weaknesses due to resurrection/re-reanimation are as follows (at the least): A weakness of limbs due to any physical damage, curable by one with anatomical and surgical knowledge, or a healer of the undead by using shadow/unholy energies. Lapse in memory, caused by the decaying of memory cells within the brain (the soul still has these memories, it merely cannot access them while alive. This is what I believe in the living also prevents them from recalling their murderer.) Simultaneously, I interject that the undead function similar to fungal creatures due to their natural ability to regain energy via the consumption of living and non-living flesh alike. I believe they somehow process the remnants of energy within the bodies and turn them into necromantic fuel.

Therefore, a weak zombie having recently been raised or re-reanimated requires sustenance in the form of dead/living flesh (not necessarily human) to regenerate energy, similarly to how the living consume flesh for energy, they will not however starve like a living man/woman will. I also believe, given the sources I've perused, that through meditation/bedrest/general rest the energy will return on its own, albeit slower.

This is akin to a Graven One. They no longer need to eat or drink to maintain energy for spellcasting upon the ninth level (and through association their ascension to undeath), however they must meditate to regain the energy, or their mana.

I'm assuming that recently slain creatures, returning to the point of living/nonliving flesh, hold more energy than long dead ones. I believe unless otherwise harnessed or magically forced into a natural, powering, circuit by a necromancer, the energy decays in long half-lifes. I believe after about six half-lifes (which I believe leaves two to the sixth over one [ 1/2^6 which would be 1/64] as a fraction of the total energy remaining) it becomes utterly useless and has essentially decayed entirely. My thought is that if consumed while the energy flows -through- the creature (alive) the energy the undead gains would be a great number, possibly all of the energy within it, though only if eaten in its entirety. Once dead, the energy within the creature begins to constantly decay, or leave the body and disperse/whatever--unimportant. As each half-life passes, the body loses its energy from life and starts to physically crumble. Necromancy has spells that slow or hasten this effect (death and decay [hasten] for example, or a preservation spell [slow].) Death and decay lowers the time between each half-life, causing the loss of life to go faster and causing the physical forms to fall apart faster.


Essentially, Uthaniel. I agree. I believe that the essence of an undead stays within a corpse, which is how a pyremaster can gather knowledge even from ashes. This is how my resurrection for my Death Knight Agatsu (who was torn to bits by random explosives and turned to essentially mush) was revived. This leads me to another point, however. New bodies, as Agatsu received.

The essence contained, I believe, can be withdrawn by necromancy. It can be absorbed as a soul can be devoured (for that is what it is) or it can be forced into a new body. Remember, necromancers don't have to force -your- soul back into -your- body. While more difficult, they can stick you in any old stitched creature as long as it resembles something human, and sometimes it doesn't even need to be human (see: Plague Dog.) Abominations and flesh giants for example are creatures of sewn flesh, yet most flesh giants/titans/warriors (warriors being regular size) are sewn of many different creatures, people, and beasts. Yet often one soul dominates the body. In the case of abominations, they shift between souls (as they contain many) however there is usually a dominant soul (being oft the most powerful.)

I found my thoughts interesting, sorry if I bored you but I was rambling almost even more for my own benefit than that of this thread! It's also past midnight, so I'll look over this when I'm less tired. But I'm glad to finally at least somewhat coherently type out these thoughts in one place.

Perhaps I should create a rambling thread so I can put stuff like this here...

Oh man, that was a terrible TL;DR, sorry.