Greetings. I have not been here long, but I can understand how when someone portrays a race incorrectly how it may get under the skin. And I was just curious, actually about if their was stories or some other official or unofficial stories that would portray the common people of said races like, give a basis on what the society is basically like.
Not to be misunderstood, but from what I have read online and such we are only given the view of the highborn people the 'important' people of the races but never like the peons view or such, the commoners view; I mean, we all start out as commoners right? And grow to greatness (if we want) So shouldn't there be stories that show the life of the races before they select a class?
I'unno. It just seems like there should be more written stories so if we have gripes about how someone is portraying a character wrong when there is really no set basis on that race. I just think more information is needed so we can really understand the races we are playing as on COTH.
I haven't read all the posts, but I think some elves were also using "fag" and "homo" as an insult. The fact that "homo" has popped up as an insult in rp just feels very very wrong and intolerant(because at that point it feels more like OOC discrimination. Why would you try to trash talk someone by insinuating that they're gay, using a specifically derogatory term for being gay?), but at least when I politely asked the people to stop they did.
Haven't read the other posts but I think I could offer some opinions on them.
Draenei: While their numbers are few, I don't think that they are SO pushed on breeding that they would ignore the individuality of other draenei, or what they would choose to do with their lives. I heard that their society actually observes quite a bit of equality amongst the sexes, so I feel like the YOU MUST BREED FOR YOUR PEOPLE mentality to sort of clash, it also feels a little misogynistic. While your particular draenei may not feel this way, I didn't see anywhere in the culture that breeding is a must. Would it be alright if a draenei is infertile? Or was child-free and did not want to have children?
Eh. I actually do have a Draenei that varies a bit from the norm (or at least I believe it does in some capacity), that being one that was much more influenced in youth by the Orcish traditions. Because of that she's comparably pretty stuck on ideals of the individual and strength, all that jazz. At the same time orcs did kinda slaughter her people.
Just a little conflicting, if y'get me.
And heck, I have Endling. And Rigley. So I could explain some varied characters, though they aren't exactly the kind of varied we're speaking of here.
I do think we should think about a Meet n' Greet. Even if most of them seem to ignite the forums on fire momentarily afterwards.
Not every dwarf is a cheerful, gun-toting beer enthusiast, not every orc is an honour-obsessed berserker with temper problems, and not every troll is Cannibal Mystic Bob Marley. Likewise, not every blood elf is a verbose, eloquent, mild-mannered magister who wears fine silks, drinks fine wine and dedicates his life to the pursuit of the arcane. I'd just like to put that out there. I'm aware that the pretty races have more of a problem with this than the first three I mentioned. I firmly believe that we should aspire to play archetypes, rather than stereotypes, and even then there should be plenty of room for deviation.
This is actually really interesting for me to read, because my blood elf Askari is foul-mouthed and vulgar. I get the feeling that she's one of the elves being talked about in this thread, and if the way I play her bugs anyone, can I take a minute to apologise? Really, it wasn't my intention to just use the race model to play whatever damn character I pleased. In making her, I wanted to explore a different side to blood elves - a society that prizes magical ability, aesthetics, manners and beauty through the eyes of a bitter, disfigured war veteran who's a magical deadweight.
(spoilered at risk of exposing you all to self-indulgent rambling specific to only one character)
Spoiler:
That said, I work hard to keep it all plausible within her racial mentality. She's only foul-mouthed and vulgar when she's speaking Common, and that's because she's spent a lot of time amongst criminals and unpleasant types over the last twenty years and in Cartel towns in the last ten. This has coloured how she interacts with other races significantly, and she knows they generally prefer to be frank, straightforward and at times crude. At the same time, Thalassian society's rejection of her has led to her to consciously reject the conventions of Thalassian society, at least partially.
She hasn't fully succeeded, though. Around fellow blood elves, in Silvermoon City, or speaking in Thalassian, I try to roleplay a noticeable adjustment in her attitude - she becomes more polite and soft-spoken and freely uses Thalassian culture in her speech, swearing by Anasterian's name, casting aspersions on people based on wealth, attire and magical ability, all that stuff. One of the reasons I love playing her with more 'conventional' blood elves is because they pick up that something's wrong with her.
There's a certain tendency among roleplayers, blood elf RPers in particular, to play any given character of any given race as a human in Star Trek makeup. It's one I've consciously attempted to avoid, in any case, and I can't speak for those who don't.
In my experience with RPing with BEs, they are almost always warlocks, or rogues, who tend to swear heavily. And those are the ones I'd expect to see do that, honestly. A paladin, or a priest, or a mage, those would be a bit harder to justify, but BE rogues and warlocks come from the asscrack of Silvermoon. I'd expect them to be rough around the edges.
As for draenei, they're a complicated case. They should for all intents and purposes, hate the orcs and blood elves, but at the same time they are a very compassionate and wise race that pegging petty hatreds on seems a bit weird, as well. I've seen a good deal of draenei both outright hate as well as embrace/forgive their adversaries, so that matter I think is fine to me. The "atheist" draenei, though, is a concept that just boggles my mind. If you have a draenei that acts that way, then you better have a good thought out reason -why-.
Don't see the problem with draenei hitting the waterpipe though and smoking grass. The draenei are dignified, but they still gotta cut loose. You know, the hookahs are in Telredor for a reason and all.
(10-28-2011, 07:17 AM)Sol Wrote: Not every dwarf is a cheerful, gun-toting beer enthusiast, not every orc is an honour-obsessed berserker with temper problems, and not every troll is Cannibal Mystic Bob Marley. Likewise, not every blood elf is a verbose, eloquent, mild-mannered magister who wears fine silks, drinks fine wine and dedicates his life to the pursuit of the arcane. I'd just like to put that out there. I'm aware that the pretty races have more of a problem with this than the first three I mentioned. I firmly believe that we should aspire to play archetypes, rather than stereotypes, and even then there should be plenty of room for deviation.
By no means are we trying to say you should play a stereotype, though I think you realize that-- To say that a Blood Elf should have some class isn't to say they should all be scholarly people who wear monocles or anything like that. It is undeniably common though that if there is a civilized group of people, there are a few basic tenets to what they view is acceptable behavior and general thoughts towards certain subjects.
While a blood elf may not be a wine-drinking arcanist with a top hat and or monocle, he is more likely to have a more 'proper' view of social conduct than a human since, even if raised in a lower standing in Silvermoon, that's just what is generally acceptable. If his parents didn't push those virtues on him then society did, and odds are he has adopted a facade of those virtues, if nothing else.
...Allow me to expound upon this in a spoiler tag.
Spoiler:
A dwarf may not be in a tavern 24/7 and running around wrestling bears or hunting all the day, but he will in the least be somewhat rugged by the standards of other races. He will likely have some inclination to physical prowess and an aversion to magic, since that's how his society views things. More often than not he would be looked down upon for not being able to cut loose with a beer and a few friends.
A human (probably one of the most diverse) may not be a noble paladin or warrior of Stormwind, but odds are they hold some kind of pride in their kingdom of origin, even if it is only to their bloodline. They are generally less tolerant of other races because for most of their life they have only been accustomed to Dwarves and Gnomes, some elves. Many are coarse and hardened from war.
A gnome may not be an engineer, but it is very likely she understands some of the importance in the craft and what it is capable of. She's more likely than not inquisitive and curious since that's simply the kind of society she's brought up in-- always looking for answers. She also would have had less contact with the other races in war-related stories, and thus might be more open to them.
A draenei might not be a noble vindicator, but they hold the Light in great reverence. It's visible to them through the Naaru, a creature -all- the playable Draenei have been able to observe through the Exodar travel. As the remainder of a race having undergone two genocides they likely cling a good deal to their culture and are wary of those who might do their people harm, such as the orcs or elves who (in the scheme of a Draenei's lifetime) recently have partaken in battle against them and continue to do so as a race alongside the Horde forces.
A night elf might not be entirely xenophobic, but there is some serious mistrust to strangers. They are almost as alien to the other races as the Draenei, and most prefer it that way. Almost all played night elves have grown up ages before any signs of the other races, and as such Kal'dorei culture is pretty much ingrained in them. While not always violent to other races they are reclusive, preferring to be with others of their race rather than those they might view as being less learned. Many may be hardened by war, but they typically hold a certain formality to them regardless.
An orc might not be a honor-obsessive warrior, but he will have a sense of it. That honor can be twisted; be it honor given to the victors, or honor given to those who act correctly on the field of battle. They are very survival-driven people, so if they feel that survival entails warlockery or rogue-ish tactics then they will use them. Because of this they very well may be coarse, hardened by choices of the necessities over those preferred for their own enjoyment. Above all they hold the actions of their ancestors in mind, whether it be a cautionary tail of failure (in battle of in life in general) or great pride in a victory.
A troll certainly does not have to be a voodoo-crazed cannibal, but he will most likely have a great sense of nationality and will more likely than not have reverence to the old ways of his people, even those not practiced now. While they are not necessarily bloodthirsty they have been raised in a culture of warriors, and thus it's easy to see why violence may be a first resort. Above all perhaps I would say that they aren't stupid, even by what would be a 'stereotype'; They simply value knowledge different from the other races, more concerned on mysticism and physical training than any book smarts, typically.
Undead aren't necessarily hateful and violent people, but they are likely deeply affected by the misfortune that has happened to them. They will generally have come to some terms with it by the time you're playing them, as they've had years to do this though; and while they may have loose ethics that doesn't necessarily mean they go around killing indiscriminately. They generally are xenophobic towards the Alliance since almost all of them view them as abominations, and they aren't particularly open to the idea of trying to mend this gap.
Tauren don't always need to be peaceful. He might be more inclined to battle or hunting otherwise, as they hold a similar view to the orcs. They are familiar with a rougher lifestlye and as such, like many other Horde races, may be a bit more prone to blunt speech when in company. They are most likely reverent to the Earthmother and seek to better the world in some form or another. The big thing here is perception-- whether that better world is one of peace or one where all the humans and dwarves and such are smears on the ground is up to how they've been brought up, as one taught balance or one taught the way of physical might.
...That's of course all MY thoughts on that, or at least a condensed idea of it. By no means does anyone need to follow that to the letter, but I think if you were to take pieces I don't think you could go wrong, necessarily.
My whole thing is that while you want to avoid stereotypes, there should be something of a -template-. Some list of base ideals and social values a character should be able to build on top of, not overwrite. If we had everyone using the exact same ideals for a character of X race it would be boring-- going outside of the boundaries of that race, it simply wouldn't feel like WoW.
...Typed way more than I intended. It's probably hardly legible at this point.
10-28-2011, 08:41 AM (This post was last modified: 10-28-2011, 08:49 AM by ImagenAshyun.)
I think you have to also consider concepts of cultural blindness and familiarity. Bear in mind that in any given society, real world or fictional, there will be individuals who either consciously try to deviate from the norm or were brought up in circumstances that flew past the radar of social norms and values. This is why I am not bothered by low-life blood elves that much, as I am guilty of deliberately playing one (Bastos, a rogue). However, what I am annoyed, though, is the frequency of it and the shallowness of such character development. As you said, most of the BE RPers give little to no thought on roleplaying a blood elf, which does irk me to some extent. As I said to another RPer (who was then unceremoniously banned), if your character is to deviate from the social norm, there must be justification and repercussions to that behavior. My irritation in blood elf roleplay is that there -is- no consequence to this deviation when in lore, there would be tons. I -WANT- consequences to befall on Bastos should he get out of line in blood elf society. So far, the only reason why he's mellowed out is because, quite frankly, those behaviors of his are being ignored as they've become the norm... when they -shouldn't-.
For the draenei, I hope I'm not guilty of one of those, but I am told I RP draenei very well (and Kapre has been cited as one of the best portrayed draenei in the server). I don't know. I think I know who you're talking about Bovel, but as CappnRob stated, and as I've read on blogs on other draenei lovers who do take to consideration of draenei culture and behavior, they need to cut loose on occasion as they can't be expected to be hardened peoples all the time, especially if they're still young. As much as I love draenei spiritual roleplay (and I say that we need MORE), I can't picture either of my twins to do that all the time.
This topic is getting quite alive, is it not? Heh.
On the topic of that meet'n'greet; I'm not entirely sure how many of those 'accused' players would come and participate, and if they do, I'm definitely not certain how much it would affect their forum-time, if at all. It's definitely worth a try, we should say hello to the newcomers, and hear what they've to say about the server. There's certainly been quite a few of them.
Now, onto the next one - Archetypes and stereotypes. Yes, I agree with everything stated above me, of course, but try and compare it to Humans of Earth. We're ALL working class citizens, earning our keep, following the rulebook, reproducing as a species, right? No, not really. There certainly are exceptions.
Spoiler:
Take cannibalism for example. (Yes, it's a terrible example, but it's the first thing that came to mind, I apologize if it causes troubles) Now, you're trying to tell me that everyone will have a trace of 'humanity' in their actions, but here we have cold-blooded psychopaths who eat their victims post-mortum.
As I stated before, there ARE extremes, although very rare, so your exclamations are completely in place. Overkilling with swearing and drug-dealing Sin'Dorei is certainly something to be frowned upon. Especially with their psychological and cultural background as a race.
Yes. Final summation: The Meet'N'Greet should not be only that, but should also be "Meet'N'Greet'N'Show the community what they're actually missing to fulfill as (role)players".
Sha-la!
"Good roleplaying is not equivalent to saying that your character is not interested or molded for a certain situation.
Quite the contrary - good roleplaying is making up a reason for your character to do that thing, no matter the obstacles!"
10-28-2011, 09:34 AM (This post was last modified: 10-28-2011, 09:43 AM by c0rzilla.)
I don't really have much else to say other than I agree with the discontent about Blood Elves and Draenei whose vocabulary is that of a spoiled, suburban fifth grader "gan'sta'" that just discovered South Park.
My current BElf tends to be rather harsh, but swearing is usually done in the form of irritated sounds, or flesh piercing stares.
I'm certain that the younger BElves, especially ones that have spent lots of time around orcs/trolls/humans/dwarves, would be influenced by them, making them less than formal.
Honestly, I never liked using f**k IRP to begin with, save for very tense moments for characters who might let the word slip.
That or my dwarf/troll. They swear like no tomorrow.
10-28-2011, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-28-2011, 11:38 AM by flammos200.)
Contrary to popular belief, I can also be succinct.
People tend to play characters of races other than Humans, like Humans.
It should not be so. Cultures are -incredibly- different, and we play them not so that we would have the same old situations, mindsets and reactions that we encounter in human society, but rather for the sake of their difference from humanity. It is why we play fantasy games in general: for something different, fey, alien, magical, things intangible to the harshly-drawn rules of physical reality.
Back in my day(Obligatory cane-shaking at youngsters ensues), characters could get locked for being played badly and not according to racial guidelines, and the GM team would sit down'n chat with the offenders and try working things out together.
-Confront the people that you feel are out of line. Establish a conversation. Reach out.
-Communicate with them as to your concerns, and be willing to listen to what they say, as such is to be expected in any conversation, online or offline.
-Cooperate and work together to solve your differences with them. Discuss and explain Lore, and why things stand as they do, in regards to the various races and cultures, and why following racial guidelines is necessary to preserve the integrity of the setting in which we role-play.
The thing is, a good deal of common sense is required in confronting other people in regards to their chars. See, some people have incredibly thin skin, and will flare up when criticized. To those I say, chill out, no one's out to get you. Just stay calm 'n be willing to listen. If someone takes the time to talk to you about Lore and to explain little bits'n pieces that may have been occult to you before, at least lend'em your ear for a moment. You'll thank them later.
Oh, yeah, another thing. Don't be afraid to ask questions in two circumstances: When you don't know something, and when something you encounter seems suspicious. It's really gratifying to be able to tell people all about the Lore of certain races - fel, I do it all the time for Night and Blood Elves - and it's just as satisfying hearing the delicious motivation behind characters' actions, be they ridiculously esoteric. So long as things make sense in-context and in-setting, keep your eyes peeled and your ears unplugged.
The other things I felt like saying have already been said by others.
/salute.
(10-28-2011, 10:52 AM)Saronsen Wrote: I'm certain that the younger BElves, especially ones that have spent lots of time around orcs/trolls/humans/dwarves, would be influenced by them, making them less than formal.
Just to point out-- while this could make sense, I don't believe there are many elves played with an age that would lend itself to being that influenced by other races. While it is true they had an alliance with the humans they were still very reclusive to Silvermoon, after all. I just don't picture one of them picking up on the mannerisms that readily.
My main, Micheru, is a character who has grown a disdain over his own people. When he left to travel the world, he saw the suffering and the pain that many of those who don't live in magnificent crystal spires experience. He's still a Blood Elf at heart, and it's his nature to be well 'etiquetted' when it's prudent, but amongst friends he's pretty cultural neutral; almost human in ideology.
He's also drawn away from civilization with the advent of his Ranger training, and so his skills in diplomacy are a little rusty.
But that's drawing away from the topic; Blood Elves are meant to be highly cultured and imperious, let's see more of that.
10-28-2011, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 10-28-2011, 02:28 PM by Clovis.)
It's perfectly acceptable to not RP as a raging racist and snotty, haughty a-hole.
It's not acceptable to openly flaunt it ICly. Every time your character decides to interact on 'friendly' terms with a member of an 'unfriendly' race, it should be a reluctant, awkward experience. It should cause the slightest twinge of shame in that character. Your character should be fearful about talking to X race when other members of their race/faction are nearby.
You don't -have- to get your character killed for wanting to be friendly with enemy races. You should get your ass kicked on a nearly daily basis, or at least verbally abused.
On the note of certain racial members acting very contrary to their race, It doesn't just need to be members of their race discouraging the behavior. A Blood Elf trying to sell drugs and talk like a tool around say, an orc or troll, should at least get an awkward glance from them and a 'I've seen Blood Elves. You ain't acting like no Blood Elf, 'mon' You an Ally Lover? Why don'tcha come meet me in this dark Orgrimmar alley way this way....'
EDIT: Granted, being an Argent or member of some neutral organization obviously gives you some leeway...But not immunity. Pre-restart, Clovis ran a neutral Guild. He was civil around Horde members. That didn't mean he liked them. That didn't mean there wasn't subtle racism from him to them and vice versa. And that especially didn't mean he wouldn't of killed them if they crossed a line.
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