Discussion: Killing Characters

[Xigo]

I've come to realize that everyone has their own points of view on when it's 'okay' to allow for a character to die. Should they never die? Should death be random? Should it only happen after a dramatic moment? Should it never leave any loose ends? Should heroes never die or lose?

Perhaps this topic won't go anywhere, but I'm curious. When do you think it's okay to kill a character?

[Geoni]

When do you think it's okay to kill a character?

When they take a fatal blow, grow too old, or fall due to an illness. I know that sounds blunt, but I think a character should die when it's the realistic outcome of some sort of event, especially when there's nobody nearby to heal.

Should it happen only after a dramatic event? Doesn't have to. Death may strike when all seems right.

Should it never leave loose ends? I don't see how it can't leave loose ends. There are thoughts that live within themselves, and if the character does not share them, then they die with him. Some characters might have somebody very close to him that knows everything. 'loose ends' is kind of vague.

Should heroes never die or lose? Where would the dramatics be if they didn't?

[Dae]

I had Flora die in Northwind, and it actually helped her develop as a character. As a non-zealous Forsaken, she just never truly came to terms with her undeath, but in Northwind, she again experienced what it felt like to be alive, and had to face the fact that the person she became through her undeath just didn't suit the person she was before she died. She also felt the Light for the first time in a while, from one of the spirits of Northwind, which is what did her in, also making her realize that she just doesn't get to have the Light any more. (in the capacity she wanted)
After all that, she had a much easier time accepting her undeath, was physically weaker, which paved the way for the class change I've wanted her to go through, and feels more secure, knowing that she's loved enough to be resurrected.

So, for me, death should do one of three things:
1. Retiring a character, (of course)
2. Be an opportunity for character growth
Or 3. the obvious outcome from the character's behavior (which can also encompass one or two)

[Anski]

I have to agree with Geoni's take on this.

In a perfect roleplaying world, especially one as hard as World of Warcraft, death comes suddenly and there is no notion of what is just and what is unjust. I for one know that players are very attached to their characters, and countless times I have seen, and feel as though I will see, players going out of their way to protect their character from harm. I can only recall not accepting a death warning once, when a character of mine was ambushed and I was very new. I won't be making that decision again. I -want- my characters to suffer greatly or perish, and I don't want them to come back after unless a situation necessitates an extreme need for resurrection. Death is the greatest forwarder of plot and movement in a story, and the server is no different. If death were to be permanent, high profile characters (presuming the owner allows them to die,) would have the greatest sundering effect on the others in their wake. People consistently joke about the high death rate in the A Song of Ice and Fire series (known as Game of Thrones to most), but there's a reason it feels so gripping and consistent when a character dies.

They are dead. Gone. Forever. The entire life of the people around them shift when they die. Take this and apply this to the most well known characters on the server. All the countless people they know and are entwined with, all their lives would change. Hostilities would open and alliances would break. My favorite weaver of words, William Shakespeare, knew death and utilized it in such a manner that it was not a pass off plot exchange, but a deep impact on the social and emotional lives of the people around the death of another. The most famous example being the death of Mercutio, which pushes Romeo to seek out Tybalt and execute him. This was just an effect of death that could be considered small, it only affected Romeo and close company. The death of Julius Caesar started an entire war which led to the incessant slaughter of those who conspired against him. Hamlet's father being murdered in cold blood was enough reason for him to usurp an entire throne by the death of those in control. I don't think I need to go on in that to show the effect of what I'm trying to convey.

But, that would be a perfect world, one that truly is hard and cold. Characters may fear and escape death, but it would be morally just for players to accept it. I've had many reasons to kill many characters, most of them regarded as just by peers, but the opposite side always has eluded it, almost wantonly. It is hard to concept that someone's wish for an embodiment of yourself to die is truly just, but I for one see the capabilities. If I could influence anything, it would be to persuade players to open up to the concept of death. Do not seek it out, but try to understand it once it is at your doorstep regarding your characters. I fear as though players are so attached to their characters that they couldn't dare let them go, or that perhaps they are using a death unto resurrection as a sort of minor plot device to make the dying scene feel more in place for all around, but know to themselves that everything will be alright, as their hard work won't be lost on account of accommodating the emotional impact of a scene. Naturally, it really isn't that way when applied to a real situation, but it is just a thought to have in mind. Nobody sits back in their chair thinking how good they feel knowing their character is back in life, it just happens. I however, feel that if we are going to utilize death as just a pass off, rather than a strong and lasting effect, it is going to, and arguably already has, lose meaning, depth, and emotional impact.

Heroes should die. Everyone should, when presented with the fatal situation.

(And as a note, I really don't have -anyone- in mind. I'm not calling anyone out, because honestly the last character from any player I remember dying was like, over a year ago, and I don't even remember who it was. Please do not take this as a personal attack, this has almost always been my opinion, no event has changed it such.)

Edit: I just realized that I didn't technically answer the question. It's just to kill when your character's convictions are just and formed of their own thought pattern, rather than the will of the player behind them. Much like the film Inception, the character should come to the capability and reason under their own mindset. /bonk

[Xigo]

Edit: I just realized that I didn't technically answer the question. It's just to kill when your character's convictions are just and formed of their own thought pattern, rather than the will of the player behind them. Much like the film Inception, the character should come to the capability and reason under their own mindset. /bonk

Actually posts like that are entirely the ones I want, Anski! Tahnk u!

But...

They are dead. Gone. Forever.

A Song of Ice and Fire

...

[Vrahn]

That's such a timeless question.

I remember having a lot of internal debate over this during my time on CoTH, my initial viewpoint was extremely cold, simply put if you put your character in a dangerous situation then you're fair game to die, and one of my very first (and terrible. D characters followed that mantra to the core and I racked up so many kills from folks wandering into dangerous situations at Raven Hill that eventually the character simply -had- to get killed off, which he did.

However in successive iterations of evil characters my viewpoint slowly morphed into one that supported collaborating with the player regardless of if the death was justified to figure out what they wanted to happen, after all we do all roleplay for fun and at the end of the day I think that supercedes the logical outcomes of RP situations, generally before getting into that situation I'd discuss with the person OOCly my concerns and come to an agreeable situation, usually my points were to make sure that if they did survive they wouldn't be using the knowledge that they had acquired of secret events unfairly against me as a result of me letting them live. In the long time I spent doing that I think I only encountered one case where the person had something happen to them against their will in the end, some folks worked out a capture compromise, or losing the immediate memories of the encounter, or even pretending their character was an NPC as opposed to actually them and 'retconning' it on their side, and of course a fair number of people actually wanted their character's to die, sometimes in interesting ways that would as Anski noted above forward plots with their friends or other characters, or just be cool, I remember once I even got a PM from a random person requesting I kill off their character in a cool way for them which I wrote a long forum post for.

I think death and permanent injury is important to perpetuate dramatic effect, because if everything can simply be shrugged off then you don't really have any risk and without risk then the story isn't really much of a story, but that needs to be balanced with the wishes of the player behind the character to ultimately ensure that everyone is having a good time.

[Mezrin]

I believe that a character's death should be realistic and make sense. If there's no healer around when you take a mortal blow, yes, you should die. If you take an axe to the chest and are dumped in the wilderness, no, I don't think you should survive that, because being weak and a likely infection should kill you. I don't want my characters to be predictable storybook endings. I want them to be realistic, whether it's because they grew too old and everyone barely got their chance to say goodbye, or because it's a sudden, shocking end to a seemingly invincible character that provides literally no closure because their killer escaped without consequence, I want my character to feel like he was a part of something bigger, where the world didn't revolve around him. I want that character to be special by not being special at all, even in death.

[Harmonic]

Dunno how many times I've had Rensin die just because it was like "He's not recovering from that."




I've -never- done a resurrection either, I've just been fortunate enough to go through that many restarts where he's died plenty of times plenty of ways, where I'm able to bring him back somehow.

Basically, my view is the same as Geoni's and Anski's. Something happens that's pretty much enough to kill someone in real life? Yep, they're dead. In my experience though, that's never stopped me from letting my character do stupid things. Rensin's jumped off of stuff trying to hit a monster, missed, and injured himself. My Tauren Hoofrot thought it'd be cool to take on a monster that was roughly five times his size with a sword about three times his size, only to get cut in half vertically.

I see a lot on here were people do dumb things ICly only to shrug it off later on, and it's always bothered me slightly, mostly because it's one of those things where I've tried to show others by my own examples. Death doesn't always have to be a blaze of glory, sometimes it's a pitiful, sad whimper notated only by those that will miss the person when they are gone.

[c0rzilla]

I 'unno.

I had a main that I'm sure a number of people remember that died and got rezzed a couple times. I enjoyed the exploration of death, enjoyed writing about it. It had a large effect on a large number of characters.

I guess it all depends on how you do it, like anything. Every character is different.

I haven't experienced death on all of my characters, but there are a couple that I think might not wish to be brought back. If I do rezz them, there'd have to be further efforts than just a crap ton of priests, and whatnot.

[Ural]

When is it okay for a character to die? When the situation calls for it. Most of the time it occurs randomly. Does anyone out there actually -plan- for a death? I haven't yet. Though it might be interesting to try out. If a death does not leave any loose ends, then what sort of impact did that character have? Any at all? I wouldn't think so.

I've always struggled with pondering my own characters' deaths. It is a permanent concept for me to grasp, despite resurrections. I wouldn't feel satisfied with a meaningless death. I pulled this character concept from my mind, spent hours role-playing it, honing my skills and perfecting my portrayal of the character... it better be a well-written death to match. That is why I really appreciate lengthy resurrection posts. I do remember a couple good funerals, now that I think about it.

[Holynexus]

My character is Arthas. Your argument is invalid.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Well, I think that random deaths are the best. Personally, whenever I watch a movie, it always sticks with me when the death comes out of nowhere, and I think that reserving deaths for dramatic moments/when everything's taken care of kind of ruins the effect that death can have. I've only had two characters ever die and I don't even remember how Brag died. However, with Shivala's death, it literally just started with her and Sylvandre getting into an argument, with neither of us really planning for death. Personally, that's how I would prefer to have it.

[Alpharius]

I think as long as it makes sense, a player should be able to say "hey don't kill me yeah?" In a situation where I was hunting devilsaurs, and it went badly, we discussed for quite a while about this, where I said "as long as it makes any kind of sense, I'd rather you didn't kill me." Now, based on extreme random chance and dumb luck, said devilsaur pulled away to go investigate a strange noise. However, that only happens once. If you're about to die again, then you've had your chance, it's time to accept he's about to die. In a controlled situation such as roleplay, it should be OK to be given a freebee (or maybe even two!) in any situation so long as there is a logical and feasible explanation as to why your guy didn't just die there, but once that freebee is up, it's time to either get out of dodge, fix the situation, or face the consequences.

It's a controlled situation, it should be OK to be able to get out of death at least once every RP session. Otherwise that's what resurrection threads are for

[Aphetoros]

As many of you know, I'm terrible at this. I'm really terrible... when it comes to... staying dead. And that is something I feel I ought to change, looking back. I'm not the only one who thinks Astus's many deaths and resurrections was altogether... dumb. And when I came back I made the mistake of making him alive again. For some reason I have such issue letting go of him, and I don't really know why. I should just let him go.

I don't like him as a character anymore, and even though he's not the most-resurrected character in CotH history, it's still ridiculous. I've come to think that one resurrection should be enough, maybe two under the right circumstances. But sometimes it is appropriate to let a character die. There are times when you should be extra careful so your character doesn't die, but only if it is in the character's... character to act that way! If your character is a key point in a storyline, maybe you don't want to die. But [i]what if he/she did?[i] It might completely change the story! And that, my friends, could be interesting. As a freshman roleplayer in my beginnings, I know I've made mistakes. And it's like singing a song you learned poorly years ago; it's really hard to fix old habits; every time I go back to Astus I start making those mistakes again, and I just need to separate myself from him. I know I've veered off-course here, but I suppose my point is that as a newer roleplayer I was far more apt to making mistakes, falling into the trap-idea that is infinite resurrection and death. Astus is not my best character, and never will be. He's my most developed for sure, but that's because I have issues getting into roleplay now, I think.

-Aphe

[NodCommando]

I've come to realize that everyone has their own points of view on when it's 'okay' to allow for a character to die. Should they never die? Should death be random? Should it only happen after a dramatic moment? Should it never leave any loose ends? Should heroes never die or lose?

Perhaps this topic won't go anywhere, but I'm curious. When do you think it's okay to kill a character?

From an OOC perspective, I shy away from such things unless it's requested. I don't generally like killing off a character because, for one, I know someone invested time and effort into that character, and if they don't want them to be subject to death or serious injury, I go out of my way to try to respect that, and for two, it can cause some serious drama and OOC friction. Guess that sorta ties into point number one, but still.

IC perspective? Death can strike at any time, I guess. Like someone else mentioned; old age, illness, bad luck. Some mean jerk that wants your lunch money. Anything can happen.