(10-13-2014, 05:27 AM)WindZealot Wrote: And if Worgen Priests exist, why can't Paladins?
@"CappnRob" can explain this better than I can, but paladins and priests use the Light in different ways. Paladins aren't just priests with armor.
Yes hello this is Cappn may I take your order
Right, here's the deal: Paladins (and when I say this I mean -actual- paladins and not Sunwalkers and Sunwell sucking Blood Knights) have a unique affinity with the Light that is drastically different from that of priests. Namely, Paladins are blessed and suffused with the Light -permanently- so long as they uphold their vows of faith.
A priest, by contrast, is a more generic catch-all class for any sort of religious or spiritual leader who summons the power of a higher power to perform a rite, and that rite is turn can be a blessing or a curse (Holy or Shadow). A priest's willpower is a key element of this use of power as well. This higher power can be a Naaru, or a Loa, or Elune, or some self-serving belief, the Titans, whatever. It can heal, it can smite, it can hex, it can curse. Paladins don't do any of that.
Paladins are rigorously trained to carry the Light with them all the time and to utilize the Light in a disciplined and studious manner. It can not and is not to be wielded lightly (haha lightly im funnee), and especially can not be self-serving. Paladins don't go around hexing or cursing or smiting people on a whimsy like a priest could. Furthermore a paladin is trained to use both his magic AND as a soldier in equal measure. They are not "priests in plate", they are knights and warriors who have synergized their martial ability with seals, blessings, judgements, and the like.
As for why Worgen can't be paladins, I'm just going to assume paladins are immune to the curse for the same reason they're immune to undeath. A worgen or undead can surely call upon the Light when needed, but to have it constantly surging through you is a very different story and I think it would work as an effective barrier against evil stuff trying to make you into a monster.
I won't start a huge debate here, but I see no reason why worgen -after- the curse cannot become one with the Light as paladins are. The -curse- is what turns them into worgen. They are technically not cursed when they are worgen, they are just now a part of a magical hybrid race. Yes, there is a mental curse now with the fact they're always fighting their new instincts, but those are more worgen racial instincts, are they not?
We can see here that the Worgen Curse does not get into your blood and -keep- you worgen. It's literally just a curse that magically transforms you into a member of the worgen race. If it were a magical (not mental fortitude) curse through their entire existence, it likely could be fully -cured- in the same way that Fel Orcs and Satyrs can be cleansed of their demonicness. (the orcish thing isn't called the -Blood Curse- for nothing)
But, again, as I've said, the magical worgen curse turns the person into a worgen... And then they're a worgen, now. A new race completely. They, being magical creatures, can spread the curse, but the curse no longer grips their blood so ferociously that if they touched curse-immunized magic it would zap them back to human form or wouldn't work with them at all.
Maybe I'm just cherry picking stuff from wowpedia, but I think I've made my point. (that being said I don't see myself making any worgen paladins anyways so I'll just flee to the corner now :| )
An interesting note about the curse--it's holy. Yes, you read that right, a holy curse.
Spoiler:
It's a combination of Elune's divine magics and natural magics, nothing unholy in there. So, perhaps the Light could work with that once the soul's settled and all.
I think a few'a the things I'd really wanna see is Draenei Rogues,
NElfadins(But to Elune, not the Light. If one can be a Paladin to the Sun, why not to the Moon? - Also, it'd be an excellent representation of Priestesses of the Moon, so there is in-lore justification),
BElf Druids - Because Botanists and nature magic. Besides, the Farstriders've got a good grasp on nature magic, and the elves been friends with the Wildhammers for centuries, both groups relying strongly on a bond with nature.
Dorf Druids - Wildhammer Durids. 'Nuff said. Even discounting the lore sources that indicate Wildhammers can be druids, they live right next to one of the Emerald Portals in the Hinterlands. And they have a naturally strong bond with nature and animals.
NElf Shammies - NElves are really close to nature already, and their greatest allies are the Draenei. It wouldn't take much more than a bit of suggesting from a few of them to have 'em go down the path of the Elements. Besides, the Shaman class kinda' needs more screentime, Ally-wise.
That's about it for the ones that I care about overmuch. Also. NElves already have Demon Hunters, which are melee fight-fire-with-fire warlocks. So, there's no real need for normal Warlocks on their side.
The reason I mostly focused on those races that I mentioned is because they're the ones I'm most familiar with. Frankly, I could go on a tirade regarding the viability of Orcadins, or Goblin Paladins or what have you, but in my RP experience, I must ask myself if I'm entirely qualified to do it, or if it just sounds like a fun idea. The latter is no cause to bring out a race/class combo. The former, an informed opinion based on lore and plausibility, -is-.
As for how to approach the situation, I say take every profile as it comes. Leave no restrictions, other than solid justification in the profile.
Now, what this means is:
A writes a shoddy profile on class combo Y, motivating things with 'IT'S MY PERSONAL CHOICE, GAWSH' and other such baseless arguments.
A gets denied, because they couldn't justify their choice.
B writes a much better profile on class combo Y.
Despite them being the same class combo, B gets it, because they justified the character well enough.
As in these last months I've had the chance to work in a research center and observe how scientific research and peer review functions, I find that questioning propositions is the best.
Essentially, when someone comes up with something new, they present it in front of a committee(in this case it'd be the GM team), and the committee reads their research and weighs their arguments, and then asks questions about it, essentially trying to poke holes in their theory. If the researcher did their job right, they're going to be able to withstand the questioning, and give satisfactory answers. If not, then they fail the review.
Personally, I feel that all race/class combinations should be allowed... As long as there's several people working in tandem to create at least as much lore as Blizzard provides for new combinations. (Except for the obvious warrior belves/gnome hunters/obvious things)
To me, the criteria should be that you have at least three people going in it together, preferably with plenty of interacting with existing characters, and some well-fleshed-out NPCs to act as the organization leader.
In addition to that, the characters interested in the new race/class combinations should figure out the following:
Why the characters wish to become this new class
How these characters become the new class
How this new race/class combination can bring something unique to the RP experience for that race and class
At least three event-driven arcs (with allowances made for alternative means of RP if a participant can't attend events) should be created, highlighting the three above points.
To me, there is simply no point in just adding new race/class combinations just so that race/class can be just another (class) but of a different race. Giving an orc Lay on Hands and having him hang out with the Blood Knights doesn't really do much for the experience that you couldn't have with a religious Orc warrior hanging out with belves for whatever reason.
~~~
As some of you know, I've been working on a magic list of my attempts at justifying race/class combinations. It isn't by any means meant to be an end-all list, but more a proof of concept, as some combinations are more or less likely than others.
I'll use Worgen Paladins for the example here:
These Worgen are proven individuals who are given the task of bringing Omen, the two-headed wolf ancient of knowledge, back to his senses. Given that the Worgen people by now have become experts at bringing crazed wolven beasts back to their senses, they may just have what it takes to truly redeem the Ancient, for the sake of both their people and the Night Elves.They do so through (Event-driven arc) and successfully bring Omen back to his senses.
He recognizes the noble cause these characters have undertaken to bring him and feral worgen in general back to sanity. He then chooses to become their patron, and blesses them with his lunar-based Light powers and these worgen basically become paladins, but instead of focusing on the beliefs of the Holy Light, they work to try to bring back as many feral worgen as possible, thus becoming focused on stopping curses, disease, and fel-induced madness and corruption.
Essentially somewhere between traditional paladins and Plagueshifters, these characters are Light-empowered, nature-loving beacons of Light whose initial and continuing drive is to save the worgen race. Depending on who participates in the events leading up to the formation of the organization, they might wind up having a more priest-of-elune/druid base, or a stronger flavor in traditional paladin techniques.
It will take both Nelven Elune/Ancient experts and Holy Light paladins for these worgen to learn how to properly make full use of their skills, after all.
This would require but two lore "overrides" to make happen: the first of which would confirm that worgen can be paladins, and the second would be to define Omen as a character.
To me, that feels like far, far too much jumping through hoops. You know how it goes every time there's a long process like that, and the accusations thrown around, whether overtly or covertly.
To add to that, some people don't have the time to run events, or log on around the time population is especially low due to timezone differences. I believe forcing them to run events is ultimately unfeasible, as is making lore-organizations to support the class.
Instead, I would have the new race/class options available right off the bat, with only a profile required. I believe that if a person can justify their choice of race/class well enough, they should be allowed to play it.
Besides, the point is every Player justifies -their character individually-. Not the whole race/class combo for everyone. That way, nobody is forced into lore they don't want/like. There's no standardized class. Rather, it becomes a sort of customization much like the Variant system, with everyone being unique, more or less. The player thus becomes responsible solely for their own character, no lore-organizations, no groups. Their impact on the world is minimized, and the chance of them stepping on people's toes by trying to introduce something another person might not agree with is vastly reduced.
Consider, if you will, a much-argued-about example:
Draenei Warlocks.
Saying "Oh, there's this whole organization of Draenei Warlocks. They're called such and such, and generally share this philosophy, etc." -will- ruffle a whole heap of feathers. Saying "Oh, there's just this individual Draenei who, after living a particularly discouraging and traumatic life, finally snapped and considered they had no alternative but to turn to fel magic and fight fire with fire." will ruffle far, far fewer. Some lone Draenei going batskittles will be far, far more easily-accepted than the sudden appearance of an entire organization.
(11-03-2014, 07:37 PM)flammos200 Wrote: To me, that feels like far, far too much jumping through hoops. You know how it goes every time there's a long process like that, and the accusations thrown around, whether overtly or covertly.
To add to that, some people don't have the time to run events, or log on around the time population is especially low due to timezone differences. I believe forcing them to run events is ultimately unfeasible, as is making lore-organizations to support the class.
Instead, I would have the new race/class options available right off the bat, with only a profile required. I believe that if a person can justify their choice of race/class well enough, they should be allowed to play it.
Besides, the point is every Player justifies -their character individually-. Not the whole race/class combo for everyone. That way, nobody is forced into lore they don't want/like. There's no standardized class. Rather, it becomes a sort of customization much like the Variant system, with everyone being unique, more or less. The player thus becomes responsible solely for their own character, no lore-organizations, no groups. Their impact on the world is minimized, and the chance of them stepping on people's toes by trying to introduce something another person might not agree with is vastly reduced.
Consider, if you will, a much-argued-about example:
Draenei Warlocks.
Saying "Oh, there's this whole organization of Draenei Warlocks. They're called such and such, and generally share this philosophy, etc." -will- ruffle a whole heap of feathers. Saying "Oh, there's just this individual Draenei who, after living a particularly discouraging and traumatic life, finally snapped and considered they had no alternative but to turn to fel magic and fight fire with fire." will ruffle far, far fewer. Some lone Draenei going batskittles will be far, far more easily-accepted than the sudden appearance of an entire organization.
( This is to be taken as discussion and not any official arbitration)
Yeah, it prolly is a lot of hoops to jump through, in retrospect.
That being said, I still feel that there just aren't very many scenarios in which someone can make a character with a unique race/class combination and not be able to explore the very same themes with an already existing race/class combination.
The idea behind having an entire organization and plot for a new race/class combination would be to figure out a way of using the new class option as a means to expand upon what you can do with that race. (and vice versa)
In the example of the Draenei Warlocks, I wouldn't expect it to be "Warlock coven, but with Draenei this time." I would expect it to be both distinct from any existing Warlock groups in lore and give people a chance to explore the characterization of the draenei as a race that was not before possible. I would also wish that the custom lore were designed with diverse, fresh roleplay in mind so as to "give back" to the community.
While I have been an advocate for custom lore from the get-go, I really don't want to see it become... Not used to its full potential, I suppose? CotH has been just fine operating for years in some relatively restrictive policies when it comes to races and classes. Having a very deliberate set of standards and goals for new combinations would help to ensure that we are taking full advantage of what we can do with our classes and races.
Though upon rumination of your post, it isn't implausible for an individual character to be a unique take on their race and class. The biggest issue here is that there are often lore reasons that some race/class combinations do not exist. The Draenei Warlock thing, for example, isn't a thing because its thought that Draenei are quickly affected by Fel use, making them mutate into Eredar as we know them today.
Some kind of lore ruling would need to be put in place to explain such a character not being an Eredar, which would apply to the entire server, and potentially change implications behind the race itself. All for one character who could well be reimagined as a different class or race without affecting CotH canon as a whole.
How the server proceeds with this matter is an important one, as it sets precedence for what comes after. If people feel that race/ class combinations should be an individual character thing, we should avoid having to make major rulings when possible, even if it means some contrivances in the character's background. Maybe the Draenei warlock in question was affected by the Red Mist in an unusual way, locking his form as-is, protecting him from becoming Broken but also keeping him from becoming eredar, which would be the superior form for a warlock. Or something like that.
Though you could just role a Broken Warlock mini CMC and not have to touch CotH canon at all. I really just don't like opening a new box of crackers without checking if there are some open in the pantry.
11-05-2014, 05:51 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014, 06:00 AM by flammos200.)
(11-03-2014, 08:36 PM)Dae Wrote: The Draenei Warlock thing, for example, isn't a thing because its thought that Draenei are quickly affected by Fel use, making them mutate into Eredar as we know them today.
Some kind of lore ruling would need to be put in place to explain such a character not being an Eredar, which would apply to the entire server, and potentially change implications behind the race itself. All for one character who could well be reimagined as a different class or race without affecting CotH canon as a whole.
How the server proceeds with this matter is an important one, as it sets precedence for what comes after. If people feel that race/ class combinations should be an individual character thing, we should avoid having to make major rulings when possible, even if it means some contrivances in the character's background. Maybe the Draenei warlock in question was affected by the Red Mist in an unusual way, locking his form as-is, protecting him from becoming Broken but also keeping him from becoming eredar, which would be the superior form for a warlock. Or something like that.
Though you could just role a Broken Warlock mini CMC and not have to touch CotH canon at all. I really just don't like opening a new box of crackers without checking if there are some open in the pantry.
This is not true. There are Fel-using Draenei who remain Draenei in WoD. The Sargerei.
There we go. That proves that we don't need to alter -any- part of canon, as Fel does not automatically turn Draenei into Eredar, and only the Fel Mist that the Fel Horde employed turns them into Broken.
As for the crackers, what I advocate is not messing around with boxes altogether. Rather, just reaching into a bag and pulling out a single cracker and enjoying that.
You say you wish for diversity - but what better form of diversity can there be than every character being a person unto themselves? Making choices but for themselves, and not some ethereal organization we spawn for them? The individual is the height of uniqueness, and just as IRL humans differ from one-another immensely, so too do characters have unique approaches to their situations and existences.
Besides, deciding things on a case-by-case basis rather than an organizational one does much good for alleviating the fears that a certain kind of non-iconic race roleplay might come up, essentially preserving the unique flavor of the species being played whilst also providing opportunities for divergence and dissent.
In the example given, yes, in general Draenei hate Fel and don't want anything to do with it. But -maybe- one or two -might- resort to it if they were in such a bad situation that they saw no other way. To provide such opportunities for dissent is the mission of the writer - the player. Creativity is a lovely gift and I say we must use it.
It has been said that such a concept can be pursued with another race, but I disagree strongly. Even considering the social implications of a Draenei resorting to Fel, whether or not they would keep it a secret, whether they would seek redemption or rehabilitation, whether they would lose their connection with the Light and the Gift of the Naaru, ALL of these are important and unique aspects of the race/class combo that are ultimately an intimate matter that defines a single person, not an organization.
11-05-2014, 03:14 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014, 03:15 PM by Reigen.)
I really do not agree with just letting the new race/class combos be a special profile and that's that. I want it to be something worked towards and something earned, sort of like with the prestiges. Now, it doesn't need to be nearly as intense as getting a prestige, but I am very much against just having it be a special profile and done. That does nothing to offer character development and it does nothing to foster RP beyond "Oh I've not seen this before".
Edit: That is for the opening of the class/race combo. Once it is unlocked, then sure, we can have special profiles for it but only as a new part of the history and not as the past.
11-05-2014, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014, 05:35 PM by Kaghuros.)
On the one hand the end-result of a class change for normal characters is probably going to be much easier, since it's vetted in PD. Making a Special Profile might be the last step in that process just to formalize the changes (I think that's already the case for class changes?).
On the other hand, certain archetypes might be better for just having in in their background like a Draenei Warlock who turned to Fel earlier in their life. Forcing people to "earn it" in character and having to hold off on RPing the character they want just because it doesn't seem to pass some sort of OOC difficulty threshold sounds pretty anti-fun. A good middle-ground might be having them write backstory posts dealing with important vignettes of their history and the events that caused them to choose that path in their lives. That way you get a believable story of transition and can RP the character on CotH the way you want from the get-go.
Quote:Making a Special Profile might be the last step in that process just to formalize the changes (I think that's already the case for class changes?).
The current process for a class change is just getting a profile re-approved and poking a GM ingame once it is approved. From there, you have to fork over your gold as to avoid people doing it for the monies.
As for the rest of that...this is intended to be from the get-go something new and not something in the past of a character. If someone has to force a character to have a reason to be part of a new race/class combo, then perhaps the character was never meant for that class in the first place. We want this to foster current events, we want this to foster RP that is going on now and in the future when/if this does get released. Making it a special profile just defeats every purpose this has. It would be like saying the prestige should have just been a special profile.
Who's to say you can't have a backstory already with a dreanei character not all too sure about this hate of fel. It could be something that's been building up time and time again until finally it explodes into a full-blown desire to prove everyone wrong and that it can be handled responsibly. Maybe this is stuff occurring through RP right now, stuff that would otherwise have a character stuck because it's not something they can currently progress with.
Special profiles will come later once a race/class combo is unlocked. Then it can be something that's been building in their backstory and finally unleashed. I do not want to see a draenei warlock that's always been there though, because in a way, it undermines those who are willing to go through and unlock the class ingame as opposed to just writing a profile.
[Using goat warlocks as an example only THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES THIS WILL BE A THING]
11-05-2014, 06:09 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014, 06:11 PM by Kaghuros.)
That's a really good rationale. I'm glad to hear you're trying to do these things and let people work on their plotlines like their characters would IC, whereas before OOC rules would force them to stop at a crucial crossroads. That's really cool. As long as you and the team remain open to proposals going forward I can only see this leading to more interesting development routes for current player characters.
Quote:To add to that, some people don't have the time to run events, or log on around the time population is especially low due to timezone differences. I believe forcing them to run events is ultimately unfeasible, as is making lore-organizations to support the class.
We said before, I believe, that we are willing to work with people who have time restraints either via forum posts, or one on one RP so that goals can be furthered in the time best for them. So if you don't have time to do events weekly? That's fine. We'll find a way to work around it.
As for the organizations: Those are just for unlocking the class. There is nothing saying your character has to agree with the organization or it's ideals. They're also not going to be bound to it. They are what they are for their own personal reasons, the organization is just a way of saying 'the way is open and the character has resources available to them for their learning'. It's not. "You HAVE to join this and you HAVE to become the class this way."
It's a gateway, so to speak. This group has proven the race and class is possible. Others can enter into it as they please.
I say #2, but have each case carefully evaluated and thought over. Also, some combinations, while possible, should have some very dire consequences.
So lets say someone really, really, really wants to RP a Draenei Warlock. Okay, fine. Roll with it. BUT--that Draenei is going to be a heavily ostracized outcast. That character is going to be kill-on-sight to the rest of his Draenei companions. That Draenei is also probably going to experience some physical and mental debilitations. Might slowly slip into insanity. Might slowly and physically warp into crazy things. I dunno, whatever happens when most draenei start using fel.
Same goes for Nelf Warlocks and the like. You want it? Cool, you have it....BUT you have to deal with the consequences of slowly becoming a Satyr. Or whatever.
If someone wants a combo like that, they'll have to deal with the consequences and risks of having it. They can't just casually stroll around the RP world all like "yeah I'm a night elf infected with fel lol lets go do that good guy event guys!" Naw, son. That ain't gonna work.
Even if it's something...I dunno, "odd" but not particularly dangerous, they should have to deal with consequences too. So you're an Orc that's discovered the Light through a radically re-imagined take on ancestor worship and Sun stuff, huh? Well...that's not too crazy, but expect the other grunts to scoot aways from you during lunch time.
I'm a firm believer that, given enough care, thought, and dedication, any writer can make any premise or concept work. Nothing should ever be "impossible" in the space of writing. If someone studies the rules of WoW's narrative, pays attention to the logic of things, carefully considers the relation of cause-and-effect ( "If this, then that"), and works hard enough, I believe they can make it work.
And to be perfectly honest? I kind of want to see it. I kind of really want to see someone try to make something like an Undead Druid work.
Of course, it's easy for me to suggest this route, since I ain't gonna be the one who has to carefully review all of the many, many, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaany crazy characters that are going to be pouring in once this takes effect. The GM's 'n Forum Helpers are. So. Have fun with that!
![[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]](http://i.imgur.com/nIapRMV.png?1)
![[Image: sense-this-picture-makes-none.jpg]](http://p.bfram.es/sense-this-picture-makes-none.jpg)
![[Image: tumblr_nfm4t0FZcT1rtcd58o1_r1_500.gif]](https://33.media.tumblr.com/3291026593060f4cddcea972b198a89e/tumblr_nfm4t0FZcT1rtcd58o1_r1_500.gif)
![[Image: 2hhkp3k.gif]](http://i45.tinypic.com/2hhkp3k.gif)
![[Image: Da8y3O0.gif]](http://i.imgur.com/Da8y3O0.gif)
![[Image: WwDxJt9.gif]](http://i.imgur.com/WwDxJt9.gif)
