Conquest of the Horde

(08-11-2011, 08:06 PM)Zarquon Wrote: [ -> ]You are wrong,

This is not a discussion. This is an announcement, an absolute statement by Grakor saying that the Prestige System will be taken down [at a point in time in the future]. A decision. A decision is made based on a plethora of problems followed by a suggested resolution and the execution of a resolution.

This is the resolution suggested by Grakor. Thus, the only time when you can say that he is NOT disconnected from the community is if his problems are our problems. If his problems listed are our problems pointed out, then we are connected. The opposite is true.

My argument is that he is disconnected from the player base because those that agree that the Prestige System is bad give reasons not provided when Grakor justified his decision. My argument is that he is disconnected from the player base because those that disagree that the Prestige System is bad gives reasons why it is good and these factors were not considered, respected or -refuted-.

Please note: I am trivializing your opinions for the fundamental reason that Grakor gave a decision. The Prestige Systems are going down. He then give his own series of problems as to that decision. Your opinions are invalid, unless he stated them as the rationale behind his decision. Your opinions are valid if he agrees and listed them down as the rationales behind his decision. If he agrees with you but did not list them down earlier means that he is obviously disconnected from you, the player base, because he did not open up a discussion earlier.

Note. This is not a discussion. He made a decision. Note the crux of the player base's irritation.

Now, all that I have stated above is a logical and mathematical dissection of the fundamental basis of my stance. My stance being that the decision was disconnected from the situation, fueled by the opinions of one person, in enacting a decision that applied to many others, without solid and firm reasonings.

These are the reasonings he provided, along with my refutes.

(08-10-2011, 04:26 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]

The Problems With Prestiges

1. Prestiges can kill RP as often, if not more often, than they create it.

When the system was put in, it was thought that prestiges would, essentially, create new RP for folks and give them something to work towards. Moreso than that, however, it was a hope that prestiges would spark interesting RP both during the training process and after the training process. That hope. however, ended up falling flat.

An absolute statement along the lines of, "ALL prestige falls. ALL prestige did not create new RP. ALL prestige's hopes fall flat." Untrue. All I need is one example to say that a Prestige benefited RP in Prologue, and it is enough. The truth is that SOME prestige gets abused, SOME prestige failed, SOME players failed. Your suggestion is to remove ALL. This is an absolute statement because it suggests and demeans the Positivity of the Prestige System in favor of the negativity.

I can't count the number of times I've seen arena tournaments or other PvP events ruined due to the presence of a Myrmidon/Gladiator prestige stealing the spotlight. I can't count the number of times I've seen people complain about the power of prestiges and get turned off from an RP because of that. Because prestiges are intended to be more powerful than normal characters, they get a free pass to walk over others during events and it's not fun for anyone involved. This can cause a lot of friction between players.

Yet on the other hand, I have seen arena tournaments or other PvP events bolstered and made more interesting due to the presence of a Prestige. I have seen non-Prestige stealing the spotlight as well. In fact, once -anybody- steals the spotlight, somebody will be unhappy because he really wants it instead and hence decide to target prestige for his complaints. Friction in Player VS Player. . .I don't know, I am sure there is a solution for that. Regardless, this is once again an opinionated and absolute statement; again, there are plus points just like there are minus points.

Prestiges were meant to be awe inspiring to a limited degree, but this happened not because of the character's accomplishments, but because of a roll bonus. Prestige characters often weren't given any respect, nor were most prestige characters responsible for creating RP on the server. Instead...

Take away the roll bonus. And I guess I am the minority who respects Prestige Characters. Or maybe I am just lucky enough to RP with the right prestige characters. Honestly, there are some who don't give two silver coins of care about roll bonuses, and some who keeps bugging people about it. You know which doesn't deserve it. Just take it away completely.

2. Prestiges were taken for reasons of power, not character development.

Let's be honest: prestiges are nice because people like roll bonuses. People like being special and important. Some prestiges were used to further characters, but most of the time it was a bid for power and little more.

Take away the roll bonuses.

Aside from that power, the prestige system does nothing that couldn't be done with a personal storyline. Who plays an apprentice who, over time and through a trying quest, becomes a full Mage? No prestiges involved, and you'd have essentially the same story. The only exception to this were certain prestiges that served as vehicles for storytelling, Dragonsworn being the obvious example. Even then, I think many people tried to go Dragonsworn as a default, not for the RP possibilities.

I don't understand why people bother climbing the Himalayas. Just climb. . .I don't know, some hills in France? I mean, it is still climbing. . .On a more serious note, a very simple experiment: draft out what storyline would fit an apprentice Mage and what storyline would fit a budding Felsworn, note the differences.

3. Prestiges do not make sense given WoW's class system.

I've mentioned this before. Many of the prestiges we used in the past were d20 transfers...even if we changed the titles to be something different from the d20's interpretation, many of them simply don't make sense in the current scheme of things. If we removed them, then what's the point?

I guess you can always just leave them alone.

WoW Shaman are a combination of orc shaman, troll witch doctors, and tauren spirit walkers.

WoW Hunters who spec Beastmastery might as well be beast masters, those that spec Marksmanship are essentially dead shots.

WoW Fury Warriors are berserkers and/or bone crushers, WoW Arms Warriors by default have the most iconic blademaster skill.

The list goes on.

WoW's classes were never meant to advance in this manner.

I don't understand this point, to be very honest with you. What you effectively said is that we are as powerful if not more than Prestiges. If we are, then it only suggest that the Prestige System is not only imbalanced, it is pretty damn cool as people are writing so much on adding the talent points to the right tree. If we are not, then it once again justifies why the Prestige System exists; it is different. Point is, it is either different, or it is not.

4. Prestiges are rigid.

The recent system in particular was given flak for being *too defined*. Titles in general, as long as we're drawing them from the d20 or any other limited source, will remain very limited in terms of customization.

This seems like a non-issue to me. The ones making this complaint will logically be those with Prestige themselves or are aiming for prestige.

. . .if you are one of those who thinks that problems have solutions, then telling someone who has an ache in his arm to cut off his arm doesn't solve the problem. So this problem is pretty flimsy.

Maybe my refutes doesn't convince you entirely. But my refutes exist. This means that each of these rationales Grakor listed is debatable. It is flimsy, arguable, and hence does not form a solid or good basis for such a decision.

In conclusion, my argument is very simple: the decision is flawed.

Honestly, he should have opened an actual discussion before announcing that Prestige System is going down. Then he might have prove more convincing, instead of the current situation where I personally feel that the community is immensely divided. And what Apethoras said.

I am sorry if I don't come off as 'friendly' and I can only extend my sincerest of apologies in that case. Yet how friendly or unfriendly I am is pretty subjective to which side you are on, so in this debate, I am sorry but to say that I can only try, but probably not succeed perfectly.

Still, if I am considered friendly for doing this, then assume that I posted a kitten here and read my post in a cute, kitty voice. Or something. Whatever floats thy boat.

(08-11-2011, 09:09 PM)Brutalskars Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree with the concieved notion of my full disagreement. I did not say a wipe is wrong, I did not say Grakor/GM team must burn at a stake. I simply disagree with the notions against Prestiges, but most of all, I disagree with the idea that disagreements mean dissention. If someone doesn't like what you do, alright, and as Cressy said, It is indeed your guys' server, you have the final call. Just be ready for whiplash, even if it seems unreasonable to you.

I do not hate any of you, sometimes I just hate what you do.

Sincerely,
Your-One-And-True-Nub

Which was the intention I meant to convey in my former post.

This is going to be my last post on this thread, because by this point I have honestly become too tired of reading this to care. I actually like prestiges to an extent, and I still believe another system should be implemented.

If anything though this thread has convinced me that pushing for it is something which will give me nothing but stress should this situation arise once more. It is, simply put, not worth the investment. Perhaps the rest of the staff will approve it, or perhaps they won't; I could care less now.

Not to have this taken the wrong way. But it probably will be.

EDIT: I recall that I pushed for the last system as well. It makes me sick that I did.

Don't let people get you down.
They just want to whine and make large posts to stroke their own e-peens and vent their impotent rage over something this silly.
Besides, when you get down to it, this is all insignificant and pointless. Nothing that happens here will ever have an effect on real life. This is just a RP server on the Internet.
Let them whine, b***h, moan, kvetch, et cetera. It's what people do on the net.
Especially when something happens that disrupts their plans in the slightest.
Simply tell them to either deal with it or get the -Censored by the internet police of Princess Celestia. Have a magical day, citizen- out. In the end, it doesn't matter in the least.

tl;dr People on the Internet suck.

I will say this, guys.

Sure, there might be a whiplash. Hell, people will rage and more than likely they will quit. But is this anything CotH hasn't seen before?

Here, I will put some examples.

The Original Restart

Everyone (except for a chosen few players) were placed back to peons. Profiles were wiped, the server was down for almost a month, and we all had to reapply.

People left. But more new players came.

The Mass Server Suspension: Exploitation of Northrend

People were caught abusing the drop rate. People were called out and yelled at openly by GMs without knowing the entire stories.

People left. But more players came.

Valen and the DREEAADDEED SCREENSHOTS

Screenshots spread of a thread from the GM forums, that we were going to purge/ban/suspend players. Mind you, these were cropped screenshots...Err. Anyways.

People raged. They left. But more players came.

Lucelia and Lethys: Omg?

Yeah, remember when they raged so hard, that they converted all (well, a shiz ton) of their posts into their rage posts?

Yeah. People really raged. A bunch left. But more players came.

THE SECOND RESTART

Oh god. Remember this? It was like a year ago..And everyone was so pissed off...

And people raged...and they left. But more players came.

...You see where I am going with this?

People are going to dislike things that happen on the server. They are going to dislike the management. They will leave and find other servers better suited for themselves.

So. Yeah. If people dislike it so much..And I will quote you, Brutal, for this..

"Get out."

And I will add something from me.

"And find some place you will enjoy playing."

I've been reading every post in the thread. I haven't been commenting as I feel there's little to comment on, so I'll just make this post and be done with it for now.

Those of you saying that I haven't been listening to the positives or the reasons for keeping the system: I have heard every possible argument either for or against prestiges. I can say this with confidence because I've gone through this, to varying degrees, several times over the course of the server's history. In fact, these debates have been going on pretty much since the system was first made.

I've heard the positives and the negatives. I've seen the positives and the negatives, and from a viewpoint that many players cannot claim to see it from, as I've seen this for so long and I've seen the drama and issues caused by it.

Nothing that anyone has said here is new.

I've given the system its fair try. I've done that three times when each time I just wanted to get rid of it. No one can say that I'm not listening or that I didn't give this a try. I did, it failed to impress me and instead just annoyed me every time I've had to deal with it. Therefore, it's going to go. Simple as that. You can disagree with the reasons if you like, and that's fine. Insulting me isn't going to get you anywhere, though.

(08-11-2011, 09:50 PM)Reigen Wrote: [ -> ][An amusing though, no one has yet to interact with any prestige with the new system because...well...no one from the new system is a prestige yet.]

I was just about to say this. Its impossible for the system to have failed when it hasn't really affected anyone yet. All the arguments are indeed old ones that probably should have been resolved long before people put work into a new system.

(08-11-2011, 09:43 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]No one can say that I'm not listening or that I didn't give this a try. I did, it failed to impress me and instead just annoyed me every time I've had to deal with it. Therefore, it's going to go. Simple as that. You can disagree with the reasons if you like, and that's fine.

As there had been no new Prestige Classes thus far, I can firmly say that you haven't gave it a try nor will you ever be impressed. One does not eat an apple when it is a seed and expect the doctor not to come to you.

(08-11-2011, 09:53 PM)Jonoth Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-11-2011, 09:50 PM)Reigen Wrote: [ -> ][An amusing though, no one has yet to interact with any prestige with the new system because...well...no one from the new system is a prestige yet.]

I was just about to say this. Its impossible for the system to have failed when it hasn't really affected anyone yet. All the arguments are indeed old ones that probably should have been resolved long before people put work into a new system.

Half true. There are prestiges under this new system because the old prestiges got translated into these new ones. I've also been able to witness how people are treating them, both for their own declared reasons for wishing prestiges and how people have been reacting to and speaking about the current system. That the current batch of applicants hasn't reached full prestige-ness is somewhat irrelevant as we DO have full prestige characters already.

Let me see. . .

There are Old Prestige Characters that get complaints. . .

So you took the old system and replaced it with the new one. . .

No new Prestige Characters yet.

You look at the Old Prestige Characters that got complaints. . .

And announced that the new system failed.

(08-11-2011, 09:56 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-11-2011, 09:53 PM)Jonoth Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-11-2011, 09:50 PM)Reigen Wrote: [ -> ][An amusing though, no one has yet to interact with any prestige with the new system because...well...no one from the new system is a prestige yet.]

I was just about to say this. Its impossible for the system to have failed when it hasn't really affected anyone yet. All the arguments are indeed old ones that probably should have been resolved long before people put work into a new system.

Half true. There are prestiges under this new system because the old prestiges got translated into these new ones. I've also been able to witness how people are treating them, both for their own declared reasons for wishing prestiges and how people have been reacting to and speaking about the current system. That the current batch of applicants hasn't reached full prestige-ness is somewhat irrelevant as we DO have full prestige characters already.

One magic word. Wrong. You imply that the sins of the father are the sins of the son, Grakor. Quite frankly, they aren't. You can't judge a new system off of those who went through the old one. Especially when all your problems come from the old one. Give it a damn chance. Let people finish before you follow through with your preconcieved notion that failure is the only option.

You know what I do not get...

When players who aren't even active here are being vocal about the system.

(08-11-2011, 09:56 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]Half true. There are prestiges under this new system because the old prestiges got translated into these new ones. I've also been able to witness how people are treating them, both for their own declared reasons for wishing prestiges and how people have been reacting to and speaking about the current system. That the current batch of applicants hasn't reached full prestige-ness is somewhat irrelevant as we DO have full prestige characters already.

Taken from the Prestige Opening announcement thread:

(07-14-2011, 09:22 AM)Rosencrat Wrote: [ -> ]PRESTIGE ENFORCMENT:

To ensure prestige characters do not abuse their powers a rigid system of oversight and punishments will be put in place.

If a player has been found to be poorly playing his character or using it to abuse other players in or out of combat, a GM will send them a verbal warning. The warning must detail the accusations against the player and cite the consequences for further infractions.

The player will have a chance to plead their case. Their case will be heard by the GMs and weighed upon.

If, after the first warning is issued, the character continues to use their prestige in a manner GMs find unsuitable for the server, the character, not player, will be banned for a month. They will be informed of such and the consequences for further infractions detailed.

If a third case occurs the player will have their prestige character permanently killed. After a period decided based on the severity of the infractions, the player will be able to re-submit an application for another prestige. The killed prestige will no longer count as a completed prestige.

Infractions and warnings will be listed in a separate warning thread within the private prestige sub-forum and will be used when considering the player for a prestige character.

Any questions may be posted in the below thread or PMed privately to a Game Moderator.

This is clearly posted for any player who has or is applying for a prestige. If the terms are being violated as much as has been said in this thread, then why hasn't any action been taken against it? If people are violating the rules so freely, and there aren't any repercussions, then no wonder it's grown to an apparently rampant problem. The issue then becomes not the presence of prestiges, but the enforcement of the rules of having one.

Now we're just tossing sparks onto a wildfire-- everyone is. Can we just peacefully talk about this?

People, you're acting as if people change with the Prestige Systems. People will still want power. Grakor doesn't want to allow them to have power. Simple as that.