Conquest of the Horde

(08-11-2011, 09:40 AM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]Well. Here's what I think of when I hear about Warcraft.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

When a 'hero' such as Tirion Fordring or Bolvar Fordragon or Thrall goes out and saves the world, I shrug my shoulders. They are 'heroes'. It's what they do.

When the footman, the grunt, the sentinel, the spearman, the defender, and so forth does something. When they give their lives so that 'hero' can engage in one on one combat with some epic lore figure, they are the heroes of the story. I could give a rat's ass as to whether or not Lothar kills some orc chieftan. I care more about the 'nameless' men and women who give their lives to promote his goal.

'Heroes' are just figureheads for a cause.

Heroes are the everyday men and women who put their lives on the line for it, with no special powers to aid them.

Point is, you think in a 'Peasants or Kings' mentality. Thus, 'heroes' the Lore-figures, the figureheads, and Heroes, the insignificant, nameless, mass.

That's not all there is to the Warcraft Universe. This is not a world 'Of mice and men'. Just like a society, there is a middle class, an upper-middle class, and so on. There are -so many- in-betweens, and that is what Prestige Characters represent: Nothing to the potency of Lore-figures, but still formidable in their own right.

For the longest time I've played on CoTH, I have heard, ringing in my ears, the same words: We play heroes.

That is why I enjoy pitting characters against what the average footman finds to be insurmountable odds. That is why I have them take on greater numbers and live to tell the tale. They are heroes - their -job- is to bring about the happy ending at the closing of the book and put that smile on their reader's face that 'everything will be all right'.

Long ago, I pitted six adventurers: Four Paladins, a Shaman and a Warrior, against an enormous demonic serpent. Realistically, that should've taken an army to bring down. But the thing is, that the conjoined efforts of the valiant few, of the brave that decided to risk their lives(Reaching 0 HP meant death. This had been announced before starting) for a cause greater than themselves proved stronger than any mass of nameless footmen.

They won. The event took no less than four hours. And we had fun.

The point is, that you are not here to pit realism versus realism. You are in the end, not bringing about a clash of characters and weaponry, of spells and swords, but rather... You are bringing two ideas, two ideals and two concepts into a contest of seeing which is more splendid in the way they affect the reader. That is what combat should be.

We are here to bring about beauty in writing. This is done through numerous tools. You don't need Prestiges to do that, but they do add countless more steps to help you climb the mountain of achievement, as far as you go as a writer inside the Warcraft Universe. Why? Because they add depth.

They are nice to have. They are absolutely excellent to have. I can do without, yes, but I would rather not. I like Warden lore and portraying a Warden. I like the concept of Templars, the sacrificial Holy Warrior of the Light. I like absolutely everything in the Warcraft Universe, and I think y'all need a paradigm shift.

We are here to create. Some tools for creation will be taken away from us. That is true, yes, but what is your measure as a writer if you cannot do without? I realize that this means the subjugation of many a concept, and many ways in which a character could branch out and grow as an individual, but I ask in turn that you realize you are not losing so much. Please, come to appreciate what you already have. I believe that you need that, before you can evolve further, into a different concept or class.

That said, I would like Prestiges to shift into variant classes, or otherwise Special Profiles, where the Societal impact that the particular Prestige implies is considerable: Wardens and Priestesses of The Moon are important political characters as far as the Night Elves are concerned, for example.

I've been accused of being 'out of touch' with the Community, and all I could do was laugh to myself and shake my head. I have spoken with so many, and all have brought about the same chorus: "It is just not the same anymore."... and I agree. Something was lost along the last year. CoTH has changed. And not because of most of us...

But not all is lost. There are still amazing people out there, and even more that strive to be just as good as them. All you have to do is look hard enough, and you will find them, I promise. You won't hear their names shouted aloud. You probably didn't even know they existed. But they are there, and their skills in Creation are formidable. Did they have or use Prestiges to get there? Not really, no. If they could do it, why can't you?

At some point, we all long for something different, for we feel that we have explored everything a particular Universe has to offer. We think about it long and hard, and a few options present themselves to us. We can either follow Lore and Rules, or attempt to bend the former. The Prestige system is a way of getting something different, something new and shiny, just like a kid on Christmas(Although, I really liked my Christmas gifts from Kretol, and when the Restart comes, if it comes with a Wipe, I'll be sad to have lost them), to play with and mix and match with all your former stuff, in new and unbelievable ways, without breaking or bending the Lore of the Warcraft Universe.

Now, here's what I propose: Stop saying that something doesn't exist/can't be done/etc. so long as there is even a shred of valid reasoning behind it. If in any sourcebook or otherwise, something exists, then we should be able to explore that concept or location or such. After all, it's not like we're playing WoW. We're role-playing while using WoW as a medium, an aid, a tool. Could CoTH exist without a WoW Client? Yes. Because it could be in a M.U.D. for all I care. It's not the gameworld with the shiny sparkly carp that matters, but the characters that inhabit it, the concepts it brings about.

The point of Role-playing is examining a character or storyline and, after having run through it, being able to go 'Ah, but what does it mean? This has meaning beyond a mere character and a plot-line. This plot or character signifies something. It is a symbol. An eternal monument to a concept.'... Prestiges are a tool that allows us to broaden our horizons on what that meaning could be. Prestiges are a tool that allow an individual to tweak a Character into becoming another, new symbol.

Should they be gone, if you ask me? No.

Should they be changed, so they mean 'Status not Power'? Yes.

I'm none too affected by this change as it was announced beforehand. I don't really agree with the reasoning behind it, but I will accept it. Some people've asked me if I want to leave because of the choices which the administration of the server is taking. I'll answer that one with a quote from one of my favorite players on CoTH(completely taken out of context) - the one who helped flesh out my first Profile here, matter of factly, which was a trainwreck.

Monolith Wrote:This... almost hurts. I knew of this. I knew beforehand, and even still. This was once a haven for RPers... Now it's turning into a hive of backstabbery and bad RPing. I'm not leaving, though. I'm staying around as long as I can to try to help. I'm not going to whine and complain. I'm going to do something. This server is too much to just give up on.

Apologies if I've offended anyone, this was not my intention. I am merely stating my own opinion, as the opinionated little critter that I am. I mean no harm to anyone of this community, nor to the community itself.

But... could we please have our haven back?

Don't twist my words, and don't assume to know what I think.

(08-11-2011, 10:51 AM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]Don't twist my words, and don't assume to know what I think.

/pat

Personally on the whole issue of should we have prestiges of some form of another or not, I find it's best to ask "why not" rather than "why."

Just some food for thought.

(08-11-2011, 10:51 AM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]Don't twist my words, and don't assume to know what I think.

Apologies, that is merely the way you came off to me. A subjective opinion is all. As I stated at the end of my post.

aroes Wrote:/pat

Personally on the whole issue of should we have prestiges of some form of another or not, I find it's best to ask "why not" rather than "why."

Just some food for thought.

Exactly.

I'd like to shed some light:

I was here for the past two (at least) closings of the prestige system. I've had a prestige character. I am affected by this, even if minorly - I planned to push a character into the system, for kicks.

We've made this system over and over, and it keeps getting closed. Your, "Why not?" - Well, it lies in that thought.

It's like producing lollipops for children. You can say, "Don't put this in someone's hair (Don't misuse these,)" all you want, but by George, if someone doesn't know what that means, from time to time. Then you get one child (player) who does it and doesn't get caught off the bat - Other kids think it's okay to do - plenty of kids get hurt (Drama.) No matter how much you try to enforce the rules, you will have people who break them - people who will invariably slip under your radar.

Why not take the lollipops away? Sure, they add a little bit of spice and joy to their lives (your RP), but in the end, they already have so much to play with and enjoy (your characters.) Ah, but then you get -all- of the children - or at least many of them - crying out in defense of the candy (Drama!) You stand the chance of hurting a lot of innocent children's feelings (some of you, perhaps.) There was a time when the lollipops weren't here, though.

In fact, I still honestly don't see how the lollipops really matter all that much. A few of the flavours seem to be nice, but then... I dunno - seeing all this makes me want to avoid sweets entirely.

But then again, I never really was much of a candy lover, so take that as you will.

(08-11-2011, 10:59 AM)aroes Wrote: [ -> ]/pat

Personally on the whole issue of should we have prestiges of some form of another or not, I find it's best to ask "why not" rather than "why."

Just some food for thought.

I'm honestly beginning to think that some of these replies are reason enough. Prestiges seem to have created an invalidating feeling towards normal characters, to the point where not having them makes people compare them to farmers and peasants.

Is that really what they are, though?

Look through your character list. If you have a prestige, disregard it for this purpose. Are these other characters nameless or unimportant? Are they just another [class] just because they don't have a title attached to them?

If you say yes, then what you bring before yourself for consideration is not a character. If they are defined by a class, even if it is a prestige class, then there is something wrong.

Rigley is a character really close to me; he was my first RP character on WoW (and my namesake), and I've actually kept his history this entire time. I've never wanted him to be a prestige, but he has -completely- evolved since I first made him and even since I made him on CotH. Is he affected by his RP history? Most certainly. Does it make him who he is, though? No. I could honestly meld him into any other class and keep his character intact, and I've even taken him out of WoW for use in other mediums such as DnD.


I think I've got off-track here.

Prestiges shouldn't dictate how strong you are, or how important a character feels. Even a peon played well can be important; the point of RP isn't to make yourself important through winning the most battles for a score or anything like that, but making a character which is important to other people and their characters. The importance of a character isn't based on what title you have, but how you and other people regard it.


And again, I will say: I hope I made sense there. I'm sure Xigo or someone else can make a post much more eloquent about this.

Anti-Prestige Folk: Prestiges are too restrictive! They hinder rp! We're better off without 'em!

'Certain' Anti-Prestige Folk: Prestiges are too restrictive! Now lets restrict people from playing them! STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE.

Pro-Prestige Folk: Prestiges are fine! The roll bonuses don't matter to me! It's just for story purposes!

'Certain' Pro-Prestige Folk: Prestiges are fine! Just uh, don't take away our roll bonuses, bro. U JELLY?



Why do I get the vibe -all- of this could be cleared up if we just had a dedicated system in place for RP battles?*

*EDIT: But that's a whole 'nother can of worms for a different discussion.

(08-11-2011, 11:17 AM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]Prestiges shouldn't dictate how strong you are, or how important a character feels. Even a peon played well can be important; the point of RP isn't to make yourself important through winning the most battles for a score or anything like that, but making a character which is important to other people and their characters. The importance of a character isn't based on what title you have, but how you and other people regard it.

Pretty much this.

There's a bright side to this.

Those who have recently started training? You don't need to retcon much at all.

Some people like myself have had their Prestige characters for months and months. Myself? I've got 2 that I've had for more than a year. They're both my mains. The thing that's making this most complicated for me is just going back to what they were before when so much had been done.

(08-11-2011, 11:35 AM)Hawk Wrote: [ -> ]There's a bright side to this.

Those who have recently started training? You don't need to retcon much at all.

Some people like myself have had their Prestige characters for months and months. Myself? I've got 2 that I've had for more than a year. They're both my mains. The thing that's making this most complicated for me is just going back to what they were before when so much had been done.

Truth! I'm glad I didn't pick up any more Prestiges.

And besides, anything my Prestige chars've ever done could be done without Prestiges, sans a few minor actions that'll be retconned. So, really, I lose next to nothing. Just access to abilities and training-affected mentality.

I think this will be a much-needed chance to re-make Marianna.

But giving up her abilities will be difficult, if only because they feed so much into her in-character ego. It will be difficult to work around that. Difficult, not impossible, however.

Both sides of the argument have valid points, which is why I've taken somewhat of the middle ground here. On a personal note I'll say that the idea of starting fresh seems like it could be very fun.

(08-11-2011, 11:35 AM)Hawk Wrote: [ -> ]There's a bright side to this.

Those who have recently started training? You don't need to retcon much at all.

Some people like myself have had their Prestige characters for months and months. Myself? I've got 2 that I've had for more than a year. They're both my mains. The thing that's making this most complicated for me is just going back to what they were before when so much had been done.

Hawk can still be an arena gladiator, I think, he just will have a change of his class is all.. and even then I don't think this would really change the character that much. He'd just be an arena fighter like before.

Tzekel would really have a change though having the primal retconned out of him. I still think that you could play a very animalistic and feral troll if you rolled druid.

I know it's off topic but I wanted to offer some thoughts on it.

Though in all liklihood you could just roll a big troll or something.

Or you could do what Anski said and just not reroll at all. Clean slate? o.o