08-11-2011, 08:58 AM
08-11-2011, 09:02 AM
I've tried to point out the glaring disrespect flooding this otherwise peaceful thread in just about any way I could possibly think of. Short of making a gigantic rainbow post asking people to tone it down, I figure I've absolutely done everything a player could try to do.
I'll just leave the GMing to the GMs and focus on more important matters.
Like kittens.
Kittens are always important.
Or why I don't have a kitten.
I'll just leave the GMing to the GMs and focus on more important matters.
Like kittens.
Kittens are always important.
Or why I don't have a kitten.
08-11-2011, 09:03 AM
(08-11-2011, 08:37 AM)Cressy Wrote: [ -> ]I am being honest, because some of you need to hear it.
Yeah, it is a dick thing to say..but when you are feeling hurt over this? Really? Reallly?
I guess I'll be honest too, then.
Pouring more fuel onto a fire isn't going to help anything. You know I like you, Cressy, but posting stuff like this won't help.
Heck. I know my posts won't matter either, in the long run. People have their presupposed arguments and belief set in place (and I'm not denying the same for myself). We can mention alternatives or backtalk people all through this thread and I guarantee you the outcome will be more or less the same. One will just be less appealing to the eye.
Quote:It's not, Rigley. That's not where the sentiment lies. The prestige system can go, for all most of us care - the reasons why are what hurt.
On that same note, I honestly don't think we could give any reason that wouldn't result in this. There are people who think the reasoning is valid, and I'm sure there are just as many who think otherwise.
((Just as a reminder as well, many of the GM team have undergone / are undergoing prestige training. All of them worked on the system to put it out, and Grakor spent a whole day reading the articles. We built it with full knowledge that 'If there are still issues, it is going to be pulled'. I personally was away on vacation for a good portion of the tail end of the work (as you can tell from my hastily edited class pages), but I can still ask that you keep the rest of the teams work in mind when you're telling us about the effort put into your prestige.
Not to discredit you, and not to discredit them. Either way you look at it we've all put stuff into this system, so it isn't like we're taking its removal lightly either.))
((...Christ I hope that all came out right.))
EDIT: GODDOMOT. I started writing this and by now there's another cascade of posts.
To which I reply: Uthaniel's post.
EDIT2: The post he posted before this post. Post.
08-11-2011, 09:04 AM
Quote:Language
No cursing or vulgarity in any public chat channel. Try to keep everything reasonably PG-13-rated. Being as how everyone automatically joins LFG, as an example, it really doesn't need publicly-inappropriate content. This also goes for the forums. Any OOC discussion that is R-rated and up needs to go in the Adult channel (type /join Adult). Again, derogatory comments will not be allowed in this channel, either.
These topics in ANY OOC channel (even /Adult) will result in a kick or ban
08-11-2011, 09:06 AM
(08-11-2011, 09:03 AM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]EDIT: GODDOMOT. I started writing this and by now there's another cascade of posts.
To which I reply: Uthaniel's post.
EDIT2: The post he posted before this post. Post.
/e places Rigley in his motorbike's sidecar so they can ride a rainbow of awkwardness towards the sunset.
Wee!
(Don't ask.)
EDIT:
Tyrant Celestia says:
These people should start watching ponies and learn how to love and tolerate everything
Goddamit, Roxas.
I love you.
08-11-2011, 09:09 AM
Well it was fun to watch them flames for a bit.
I am gonna go back to trolling other realms of space and time.
![[Image: work.7378796.2.sticker,375x360.yao-ming-meme-v1.png]](http://ih0.redbubble.net/work.7378796.2.sticker,375x360.yao-ming-meme-v1.png)
I am gonna go back to trolling other realms of space and time.
08-11-2011, 09:13 AM
Seriously, you people need to learn some love and toleration. I prescribe 26 episodes of mother****ing ponies. If somebody has anything against my methods or me, then come at me bro. I WILL LOVE AND TOLERATE THE CRAP OUT OF YOU! I will love and tolerate you so hard, you'll be seeing mother****ing rainbows for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND EVERYBODY SHALL BE HAPPY!
08-11-2011, 09:17 AM
You're all getting off-topic. I'll make an effort to steer things back towards the thread was originally about. But first, I must say that the 'chill guys, it's just a game' argument is not only disrespectful, but is also a truly impertinent and ignorant one, and it shows that those who assert it don't really know what it means to be a roleplayer.
Moving on,
I tend to view our (the GM team's) attitude toward the prestige title system(s) as very similar to that which Macbeth had toward murdering people:
Anyhow, it's high time we set the record straight with prestiges (or at least firmly crooked). Anything that's decided on now about the prestige system should be, in my probably much to hopeful opinion, wrong for good. (Though, I'm not so optimistic as to begin to hope that the decision made will be the right one, or that there even is, in fact, a right course of action to take.)
...
When the idea of putting the torch to prestiges again was originally brought up, I met it with skepticism and leeriness, for the sole reason that I wasn't of the opinion that there was even anything inherently wrong with the standing system, and why bother @#&!ing with everything again so soon?
Now, after some thought (I'm always late to the party), I can admit there are indeed some glaring flaws. But, then again, when not?
When we were first dreaming up and plotting for this latest prestige system, some of the staff may remember that I was irrefutably against the idea of releasing rote skillsets and setting rigid class lines that, I reasoned, would ultimately put a crutch on roleplay. Eventually, although I was wont to concur, I resigned to the idea of the 'sheets' we ended up making and tried to be consoled by the fact that they're supposed to just be overviews.
I do not like what the overviews have turned into. They're restrictive and entirely subjective to the author who wrote them and they don't do the classes justice and I really can't pack all of my grievances with them here. But, know that my firm disagreement with what the 'overview' sheets turned into was why I ended up not writing any.
How do you do that? Say things I want to, but much more eloquently and in much less words?
This is precisely the type and style of system that I've vouched for from the beginning, during numerous discussions regarding how the prestige system should work. A system like this allows for full range of movement and the ability for a player to do anything they want to advance and add depth to their character, with the critically important catch that our approval is required.
I think there was something else I wanted to put down, but... well, no, that was more or less it, I think. The above is exactly the style of system I'm in favor of and am still pushing for.
Moving on,
I tend to view our (the GM team's) attitude toward the prestige title system(s) as very similar to that which Macbeth had toward murdering people:
Initial doubts, followed by cautious enthusiasm and then greater and greater alarm at the sheer size and scale of the undertaking and still no end in sight.
Anyhow, it's high time we set the record straight with prestiges (or at least firmly crooked). Anything that's decided on now about the prestige system should be, in my probably much to hopeful opinion, wrong for good. (Though, I'm not so optimistic as to begin to hope that the decision made will be the right one, or that there even is, in fact, a right course of action to take.)
But now I'm babbling.
I also believe all of us here on the staff would make excellent additions as members of the United States legislative branch.
...
When the idea of putting the torch to prestiges again was originally brought up, I met it with skepticism and leeriness, for the sole reason that I wasn't of the opinion that there was even anything inherently wrong with the standing system, and why bother @#&!ing with everything again so soon?
Now, after some thought (I'm always late to the party), I can admit there are indeed some glaring flaws. But, then again, when not?
When we were first dreaming up and plotting for this latest prestige system, some of the staff may remember that I was irrefutably against the idea of releasing rote skillsets and setting rigid class lines that, I reasoned, would ultimately put a crutch on roleplay. Eventually, although I was wont to concur, I resigned to the idea of the 'sheets' we ended up making and tried to be consoled by the fact that they're supposed to just be overviews.
I do not like what the overviews have turned into. They're restrictive and entirely subjective to the author who wrote them and they don't do the classes justice and I really can't pack all of my grievances with them here. But, know that my firm disagreement with what the 'overview' sheets turned into was why I ended up not writing any.
Kaghuros Wrote:2. Decisions about character should be more freeform, with less of a focus on combat/roll DPS.
I personally believe that people should be able to do a lot more on their own story-wise, with the caveat that there be GM approval for anything out of the ordinary. Like I said before, variant classes and alternative way to do normal things (like runic magic and art-as-spell casting for Inscription Mages) are something I love. Not every character that's strange is fun, and not every one is acceptable, but having a system that allows people to make their own advanced classes -enables fun- for people who like to try something different while at the same time enabling the GMs to watch it for trouble.
3. Some people like their characters to achieve something, so a system that encourages achievement while still offering oversight is good for the server.
Maybe it's becoming head chef of a restaurant in Stormwind, maybe it's a gold medal at the Azerothian Special Olympics. People like their character's stories to have meaningful advancements, and sometimes that could mean specializing or changing their focus or position in society. That kind of advancement should be encouraged and most importantly monitored. Because if someone wants to be OP they will be without asking, but if they have to go through hoops to do something then in theory only those dedicated to following a path IC'ly will do so.
How do you do that? Say things I want to, but much more eloquently and in much less words?
This is precisely the type and style of system that I've vouched for from the beginning, during numerous discussions regarding how the prestige system should work. A system like this allows for full range of movement and the ability for a player to do anything they want to advance and add depth to their character, with the critically important catch that our approval is required.
I think there was something else I wanted to put down, but... well, no, that was more or less it, I think. The above is exactly the style of system I'm in favor of and am still pushing for.
08-11-2011, 09:21 AM
I haven't really noticed a problem with the prestiges, to be honest. They deviate from what's to be considered 'actual' Warcraft lore (IE; what one can observe ingame), but those deviations are still less sketchy and overpowered than many things which are entirely canon.
Some people will always go after power, whether you give them prestiges or not. The majority of us are in it for the story. And the story is why we're all here: why we've devoted ourselves to playing toned-down, more realistic versions of the superpowered character archetypes that we see in canon. Such prestiges give us an acceptable way to customize our characters' skills, and give them storylines that others will care about.
On a more personal level... all of the characters I've put through the prestiges have gone through irrevocable physical and mental changes. I will not be able to stomach retconning stories which have taken months (in some cases, years) to tell. If this mass revocation does happen, I intend to keep playing as I always have. The time I've spent roleplaying here has been too fun for me to accept tossing away history each time we have a server-enforced retcon.
Just my extra cents. No insults are intended or implied.
Some people will always go after power, whether you give them prestiges or not. The majority of us are in it for the story. And the story is why we're all here: why we've devoted ourselves to playing toned-down, more realistic versions of the superpowered character archetypes that we see in canon. Such prestiges give us an acceptable way to customize our characters' skills, and give them storylines that others will care about.
On a more personal level... all of the characters I've put through the prestiges have gone through irrevocable physical and mental changes. I will not be able to stomach retconning stories which have taken months (in some cases, years) to tell. If this mass revocation does happen, I intend to keep playing as I always have. The time I've spent roleplaying here has been too fun for me to accept tossing away history each time we have a server-enforced retcon.
Just my extra cents. No insults are intended or implied.
08-11-2011, 09:23 AM
I'm not really sure what else is to be said other than that I agree with the previous post, so...
08-11-2011, 09:40 AM
Well. Here's what I think of when I hear about Warcraft.
![[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTugVam7IFqbnu5NGtQ79-...Bmyr097GYY]](http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTugVam7IFqbnu5NGtQ79-CB1SmdliCVneyv4ihIXBmyr097GYY)
![[Image: Darnassus_Sentinels_TCG.jpg]](http://www.wowpedia.org/images/a/af/Darnassus_Sentinels_TCG.jpg)
When a 'hero' such as Tirion Fordring or Bolvar Fordragon or Thrall goes out and saves the world, I shrug my shoulders. They are 'heroes'. It's what they do.
When the footman, the grunt, the sentinel, the spearman, the defender, and so forth does something. When they give their lives so that 'hero' can engage in one on one combat with some epic lore figure, they are the heroes of the story. I could give a rat's ass as to whether or not Lothar kills some orc chieftan. I care more about the 'nameless' men and women who give their lives to promote his goal.
'Heroes' are just figureheads for a cause.
Heroes are the everyday men and women who put their lives on the line for it, with no special powers to aid them.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
When a 'hero' such as Tirion Fordring or Bolvar Fordragon or Thrall goes out and saves the world, I shrug my shoulders. They are 'heroes'. It's what they do.
When the footman, the grunt, the sentinel, the spearman, the defender, and so forth does something. When they give their lives so that 'hero' can engage in one on one combat with some epic lore figure, they are the heroes of the story. I could give a rat's ass as to whether or not Lothar kills some orc chieftan. I care more about the 'nameless' men and women who give their lives to promote his goal.
'Heroes' are just figureheads for a cause.
Heroes are the everyday men and women who put their lives on the line for it, with no special powers to aid them.
08-11-2011, 10:12 AM
Stealing a page from Bubbles' book.
But the point is, when will there not be flaws? It's Human nature to mess up, and I'm pretty sure we're all Human (except Flammos). Sure, the current system's flawed, but guess what? So were the other two. So will every other Prestige system. Sure, people can make their own changes to it, considering how they see as fit. I do, personally, believe that some Prestiges shouldn't get combat bonuses. For example, I'm not going to give Bragdana a positive bonus (he'll still get the negative from cold, mind), because my views of Pyremaster are those of a cultural Prestige. Other people, in my eyes, should get bonuses. Really, it just matters on who we're talking about, what happened in their training and the overall Prestige. Really, though, the only Prestiges I would consider giving positive bonuses to Whisper Blade, Demon Hunters against Fel, Graven Ones against Humanoids and Felsworn. Really, though, for all the others, they're as much their own class as they are a variant, so those new spells should be enough compensation. At least, in my mind, that is.
But the point is, when will there not be flaws? It's Human nature to mess up, and I'm pretty sure we're all Human (except Flammos). Sure, the current system's flawed, but guess what? So were the other two. So will every other Prestige system. Sure, people can make their own changes to it, considering how they see as fit. I do, personally, believe that some Prestiges shouldn't get combat bonuses. For example, I'm not going to give Bragdana a positive bonus (he'll still get the negative from cold, mind), because my views of Pyremaster are those of a cultural Prestige. Other people, in my eyes, should get bonuses. Really, it just matters on who we're talking about, what happened in their training and the overall Prestige. Really, though, the only Prestiges I would consider giving positive bonuses to Whisper Blade, Demon Hunters against Fel, Graven Ones against Humanoids and Felsworn. Really, though, for all the others, they're as much their own class as they are a variant, so those new spells should be enough compensation. At least, in my mind, that is.
08-11-2011, 10:18 AM
Well, this thread *started* well...
Guys, everyone calm down and talk to each other in a respectful manner. This goes for people on both sides of the issue. I would rather not have to lock this thread, but I will if it's going to just involve more flames and trolling.
Now, to tackle some of these arguments one at a time:
1. "Prestiges are essential for RP!"
I cringe every time I see this. They're clearly not essential or necessary for good character development, as people RP in other places besides CotH just fine.
People say that prestiges are required for character advancement, but I don't buy that. Someone made the comment about no one wanting to be student mages, and that's true. This leads to the real problem when it comes to advancement: everyone wants to start at the top. I could roll a student mage, go through an entire storyline about him training and going on a quest to become a true, fully-fledged mage, and that would be just as rewarding as any prestige storyline in terms of character development.
But no one wants to do that. They all want to start at the top. That's why I don't buy it when some folks say that they're not in it for the power.
2. "You just want us to be insignificant!"
I never said that. Unless your only significance is in roll bonuses, fancy titles, and conquest RP. Then yes, I want you to be insignificant.
Ultimately, this is the result of differences of opinion. There's still a lot one can do and RP that doesn't involve prestiges or conquest RP. I don't feel a character is insignificant just because he's on the same level as every other player character out there.
If you feel that playing a mage, or a warrior, or a paladin, or a death knight is on the same level as playing a farmer...well, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel that way.
3. "You're an evil dictator! Don't other people's opinions matter? Don't you care about their RP?"
No one has said this directly here, but I've heard it said (in kinder words, perhaps) elsewhere, so it needs addressing.
I'm sorry if you feel that this was a one man show and I'm just closing prestiges out of spite. All I can say to this is to point out a few things:
One, I wanted the system dead and buried two iterations ago. It's only due to me listening to other people's opinions that the last two systems were given a try at all.
Two, I stated before the current system was being made that if it did not win me over, that we'd scrap it. This was the last chance of the system, and it was under those conditions that we made it. The GMs accepted these terms when the system was being made. We all went into this knowing what may happen as a result.
Three, this is a server that I help run. While I am not as arrogant to assume that my opinion is the only one that matters, I also feel that if I am not having fun on a server that I admin for, then it should changed. If I'm not having fun on CotH, why are we keeping it running? Why am I playing admin for it?
I did not make these decisions on my own, I am simply willing to take the heat for them because, yes, I was the one that set these events in motion.
4. "Prestiges have created a lot of RP! What about <insert character here>?"
First of all, I can count on one hand the number of prestige characters that have been used to further stories outside of personal advancement. Instead, these characters are muscling other people out of RP events, and not by breaking the rules, but simply doing what we've allowed them to do as a result of the system.
However, let's use an example of one of the very few characters that HAS generated a lot of RP. I know Rosencrat is going to hate me for this, but we'll use Marianna.
Yes, Marianna has been responsible for a lot of RP on the server. You know what, though? I know for a fact that there are a LOT of people who utterly hate how that character is played. I know because I get the complaints and the rants, and I see the results in the aftermath. I know several bouts of drama started because of the character, and RP that has ended because of her interference. This is not an attack on Rosencrat, this is just a sad fact of how prestiges as a whole are played.
I do not say "prestiges kill RP as often as they create it" lightly.
Guys, everyone calm down and talk to each other in a respectful manner. This goes for people on both sides of the issue. I would rather not have to lock this thread, but I will if it's going to just involve more flames and trolling.
Now, to tackle some of these arguments one at a time:
1. "Prestiges are essential for RP!"
I cringe every time I see this. They're clearly not essential or necessary for good character development, as people RP in other places besides CotH just fine.
People say that prestiges are required for character advancement, but I don't buy that. Someone made the comment about no one wanting to be student mages, and that's true. This leads to the real problem when it comes to advancement: everyone wants to start at the top. I could roll a student mage, go through an entire storyline about him training and going on a quest to become a true, fully-fledged mage, and that would be just as rewarding as any prestige storyline in terms of character development.
But no one wants to do that. They all want to start at the top. That's why I don't buy it when some folks say that they're not in it for the power.
2. "You just want us to be insignificant!"
I never said that. Unless your only significance is in roll bonuses, fancy titles, and conquest RP. Then yes, I want you to be insignificant.
Ultimately, this is the result of differences of opinion. There's still a lot one can do and RP that doesn't involve prestiges or conquest RP. I don't feel a character is insignificant just because he's on the same level as every other player character out there.
If you feel that playing a mage, or a warrior, or a paladin, or a death knight is on the same level as playing a farmer...well, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel that way.
3. "You're an evil dictator! Don't other people's opinions matter? Don't you care about their RP?"
No one has said this directly here, but I've heard it said (in kinder words, perhaps) elsewhere, so it needs addressing.
I'm sorry if you feel that this was a one man show and I'm just closing prestiges out of spite. All I can say to this is to point out a few things:
One, I wanted the system dead and buried two iterations ago. It's only due to me listening to other people's opinions that the last two systems were given a try at all.
Two, I stated before the current system was being made that if it did not win me over, that we'd scrap it. This was the last chance of the system, and it was under those conditions that we made it. The GMs accepted these terms when the system was being made. We all went into this knowing what may happen as a result.
Three, this is a server that I help run. While I am not as arrogant to assume that my opinion is the only one that matters, I also feel that if I am not having fun on a server that I admin for, then it should changed. If I'm not having fun on CotH, why are we keeping it running? Why am I playing admin for it?
I did not make these decisions on my own, I am simply willing to take the heat for them because, yes, I was the one that set these events in motion.
4. "Prestiges have created a lot of RP! What about <insert character here>?"
First of all, I can count on one hand the number of prestige characters that have been used to further stories outside of personal advancement. Instead, these characters are muscling other people out of RP events, and not by breaking the rules, but simply doing what we've allowed them to do as a result of the system.
However, let's use an example of one of the very few characters that HAS generated a lot of RP. I know Rosencrat is going to hate me for this, but we'll use Marianna.
Yes, Marianna has been responsible for a lot of RP on the server. You know what, though? I know for a fact that there are a LOT of people who utterly hate how that character is played. I know because I get the complaints and the rants, and I see the results in the aftermath. I know several bouts of drama started because of the character, and RP that has ended because of her interference. This is not an attack on Rosencrat, this is just a sad fact of how prestiges as a whole are played.
I do not say "prestiges kill RP as often as they create it" lightly.
08-11-2011, 10:23 AM
I can truly say that I miss the days when there was like.. maybe three prestige class characters on the server? Characters like Alistus who worked in the background to start some RP when there wasn't really much around.
In my person opinion, CotH does not need a prestige system. We should be able to get by just fine without them as we have for a very long time.. And if we don't totally get rid of them, limit them as they used to be.
In my person opinion, CotH does not need a prestige system. We should be able to get by just fine without them as we have for a very long time.. And if we don't totally get rid of them, limit them as they used to be.
08-11-2011, 10:40 AM
(08-11-2011, 10:18 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]Well, this thread *started* well...
Guys, everyone calm down and talk to each other in a respectful manner. This goes for people on both sides of the issue. I would rather not have to lock this thread, but I will if it's going to just involve more flames and trolling.
Now, to tackle some of these arguments one at a time:
1. "Prestiges are essential for RP!"
I cringe every time I see this. They're clearly not essential or necessary for good character development, as people RP in other places besides CotH just fine. 1
People say that prestiges are required for character advancement, but I don't buy that. Someone made the comment about no one wanting to be student mages, and that's true.
2. "You just want us to be insignificant!"
I never said that. Unless your only significance is in roll bonuses, fancy titles, and conquest RP. Then yes, I want you to be insignificant. 2
Ultimately, this is the result of differences of opinion. There's still a lot one can do and RP that doesn't involve prestiges or conquest RP. I don't feel a character is insignificant just because he's on the same level as every other player character out there.
If you feel that playing a mage, or a warrior, or a paladin, or a death knight is on the same level as playing a farmer...well, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel that way.
Three, this is a server that I help run. While I am not as arrogant to assume that my opinion is the only one that matters, I also feel that if I am not having fun on a server that I admin for, then it should changed. If I'm not having fun on CotH, why are we keeping it running? Why am I playing admin for it? 3
1. I don't think anyone said they're essential (though I didn't read every post) but I do enjoy having them-- they're fun and they add depth. Honestly, I'd be fine if we could just roll shit without worrying about people herping and derping. Honestly, if people are going to herp and derp about it, just punish them for it. Give people the trust to do what they want, and if people complain then do something about it. If no one's complaining, what's the big deal?
2. Some people enjoy being more than an ordinary paladin, and some people enjoy being something different than a regular druid-- Safksha for example. If I were him I'd just play a druid that remains feral-- it's similar if not the same. Yes, things are doable without prestiges but it's nice to have a system that can back you up-- yes I can do this, yes my character learned this ICly and I'm not a douchebag RPing something randomly just because I can. Now, to continue my almost aimless blathering, when I joined this server and saw something about prestiges, I had no idea what a prestige was. I can't for the life of me remember who told me this, but the just of it was that prestiges were uber-powerful things that are hard to get and are more powerful than you. If they're not supposed to be about power, it's been that way much longer than I've been here and I don't know who started it, but that's an illusion that needs to be destroyed. I'm sure even you, Grakor, would be fine with prestiges if they had nothing to do with actual power. And just as a side note? When people say 'Enabling armsraces and power-struggles in that way is not what we wanted it to be' I cringe because it's a silly statement-- everything is a power struggle. And while some people might be doing it for OOC reasons ICly it's a powerstruggle. The good-guys are always trying to 1-up the bad guys, who are in turn trying to 1-up the good-guys. It's just how things are.
Some prestiges bring specialization, some prestiges bring power. It depends.
3. I get what you're saying here, and while I understand you want to have fun too, I can't understand how prestiges tear apart your fun -that- much.