Class Guides

[Azheron]

The easiest way would be a vote. Maybe between the makers of choices.

And then, those choices would be -THE- choices.

Like. Un-avoidable. Deadly.

EPIC.

... Well maybe I went a bit overboard, but that would be the easiest way to decide this.

[SpiralLateralus]

A big problem and the main reason why I doubt we'll see any of guide like this be "officially endorsed" by GMs is that even among us opinions are different wether certain abilities and spells are IC or not. Generally, I think one can avoid spells that seem a bit OP (example: mind control, insta-super-heals or maybe turning into a demon, heh), and leave the rest up for discussion.

I've found that some spells effectiveness (or probability of working at all) should be rolled. Heals especially.

[Jetniss]

I see it like this. You either blatantly put up what can and can't be done, or you define requirements. I mean, if Blizzard made them for the PvP and PvE players, they -CAN'T- be that OP'd. They're balanced in some way. Warlocks are scrawny otherwise, they get a thirty second period with some OP'd cake. Mind control is also tempoary, and the instant super heals are already draining. It's not like anyone acknowledges these techniques much in a roll battle(I don't know about mind control); in a roll battle, the default battle system on CotH. People travel miles inbetween rolls, and no matter the attack, even if it's the enemies Achilles heal and their bane mixed into one attack, they're still losing 1 HP if they don't roll high enough, 2 if they're unlucky.

[Azheron]

I don't really approve of the roll system, and it isn't really on-topic, is it?

Anyhow, I still stand in my position of absolute choice making.

[Hawk]

Nostra posted before I did, but he brings up a good point.

But to support my point of how common sense should more be used (and is actually more used I'll add)... well, this is one of the very few times a thread like this has even been made. I can only vaguely recall about 3 others.

If there were guides like that around this topic and the argument before it wouldn't have been made.

I dare you to truthfully admit that there hasn't been arguments over, for example, character profiles. People will always argue. Always. We've seen it time and time again and it's unlikely to change. :|

I see it like this. You either blatantly put up what can and can't be done, or you define requirements. I mean, if Blizzard made them for the PvP and PvE players, they -CAN'T- be that OP'd. They're balanced in some way. Warlocks are scrawny otherwise, they get a thirty second period with some OP'd cake. Mind control is also tempoary, and the instant super heals are already draining.

But that's just the way virtually every RPG game is manufactured. Final Fantasy, Lost Odyssey, Shaiya, I doubt I need to list more games. The better spells will cost more mana, RP has nothing to do with it. WoW's no exception, seeing as Blizzard's market target isn't roleplayers, it's PvP and PvE players.

[Cressy]

And honestly, you guys know what should and shouldn't be used. You have to know right and wrong, and shouldn't need us to tell you exactly what to do. I mean, seriously? Are you four years old and need us to hold your hand for everything? Because that is what it feels like. Use common sense.

Jeeze.

[Tobeh]

Cressy's right fellows. I roll a very powerful Warlock that has been in his business since the Forsaken left the Scourge. I don't have him running around and summoning infernals/felhunters even. I keep him at the level he makes sense to be at for the period he has been in Warlockery. (Also he was training in Dalaran for a few years before he died, so he was extremely magically apept before he turned to Fel.)

Edit: Few spelling/grammar errors.

[Jetniss]

I dare you to truthfully admit that there hasn't been arguments over, for example, character profiles. People will always argue. Always. We've seen it time and time again and it's unlikely to change. :|

There will be more arguments, there has been arguments but putting up guides could(probably would) lower the amount of arguments, and can always be used as future reference for those who don't know enough, or has incorrect information.

A guide explaining things is a lot more efficient than me going about and telling a guy that he can't do this because I've had a similar experience, and then he spreads it to the next, and it goes on and on, mouth to mouth where the source is shaky and diluted.

That would also make problems and arguments when people try to use a situation like this to base their ideas off of in other areas. Now someone might take this, and try to apply the information here to different prestige classes, or other classes like mages and priests and such.

But that's just the way virtually every RPG game is manufactured. The better spells will cost more mana, RP has nothing to do with it. WoW's no exception.

That's how it is realistically as well. The balance is right there is what I'm getting at. If it's -really- strong, it has a -bigger- drawback. Some of these spells that aren't enough, you can add onto it if you GMs see fit, you are masters of the game.


Example:

Spoiler:

When I first thought to use Metamorphosis. I pictured Eraezel with it because of how long, and how closely he's been working with demons. Fully demonology spec'd and all, it's a last ditch thing. The form draws on his blood which I was roleplaying being sucked from the wounds he had gained, to encase his body in a mix of fel energy and blood which would've left him out of commission for a few OOC days due to the amount of magic and the fact that he was using his blood as a new coat of skin for thirty seconds.

And honestly, you guys know what should and shouldn't be used. You have to know right and wrong, and shouldn't need us to tell you exactly what to do. I mean, seriously? Are you four years old and need us to hold your hand for everything? Because that is what it feels like. Use common sense.

Jeeze.

We're all not server veterans. That was my first real magic user on CotH. My Paladin hasn't done anything big, and neither has my Rogue. There was nothing to refer to, and I figure thirty seconds of demon with the drawbacks I had set would balance out the transformation since my Warlock was faced with death, and he was desperate for an escape route.


(BAH! More people posting)

Cressy's right fellows. I roll a very powerful Warlock that has been in his business since the Forsaken left the Scourge. I don't have him running around and summoning infernals/felhunters even. I keep him at the level he makes sense to be at for the period he has been in Warlockery. (Also he was training in Dalaran for a few years before he died, so he was extremely magically apept before he turned to Fel.)

Edit: Few spelling/grammar errors.

For that, an example would be my Warlock has been into Demonology long before that. As I said, I had no reference, nothing to compare to.

[Cressy]

Going to put this a bit blunt right now.

First off, why would a warlock be using his skills in the arena? Yes, it might be a Goblin area, but the Burning Legion basically frightens everyone. AND! most races are highly afraid of them. Goblins would never allow warlocks to summon demons/metamorphosis/whatever in the arena for the shear fact they wouldn't want to lose customers.

Secondly, just because you have a full talent tree OOCly, does not mean jack diddly squat. Selena, my shadow priest, may have spells that allow her to use light, but she cannot wield it. Just because she has mind control does not mean she can use it.

Lastly, having us dictate over what skills people should have is stupid. Writing a guide to say, well these skills can be used blur blur blur for even n00b players is like holding your hand through RP. You guys just need to open your eyes and know what is right and wrong.

[Hawk]

If we're actually bringing to light abilities that can't be used there'll be arguments, believe me. And again, I could see where you're coming from if this sort of thing is a natural occurrence, but it really isn't at all. This happens once every few months, and if anything we can just link them the thread that had already covered the points instead of sparking a whole new discussion.

That's how it is realistically as well. The balance is right there is what I'm getting at. If it's -really- strong, it has a -bigger- drawback. Some of these spells that aren't enough, you can add onto it if you GMs see fit, you are masters of the game.

You made the point that non-RPer spells can't be that powerful, so... why are you now shifting it to realism when that wasn't the initial argument?

I really don't know how a need for a guide is so sudden considering this all started out when it was stated you can't use metamorphosis.

[SpiralLateralus]

Going to put this a bit blunt right now.

First off, why would a warlock be using his skills in the arena? Yes, it might be a Goblin area, but the Burning Legion basically frightens everyone. AND! most races are highly afraid of them. Goblins would never allow warlocks to summon demons/metamorphosis/whatever in the arena for the shear fact they wouldn't want to lose customers.

Secondly, just because you have a full talent tree OOCly, does not mean jack diddly squat. Selena, my shadow priest, may have spells that allow her to use light, but she cannot wield it. Just because she has mind control does not mean she can use it.

Lastly, having us dictate over what skills people should have is stupid. Writing a guide to say, well these skills can be used blur blur blur for even n00b players is like holding your hand through RP. You guys just need to open your eyes and know what is right and wrong.

For the life of me, I don't think I've ever seen those two words before.

[Piroska]

With all of the restrictions CotH places; it would take a lot of these topics off your hands if you had guides there, or had someone sticky/wiki player made guides(With possible edits), and if such a topic or argument arose, just point someone in the direction of said guide.

As a fun heads up, we are eventually planning on getting all of the guides over to the wiki. Just a matter of time, effort, and interest. It's been on the backburner for about three weeks now.

That said, I recognize people are saying it's too difficult to determine what should and shouldn't be used, but a general guide can't be a horrible thing. If we had one for each class, we could provide some direction. And, more importantly, if a discussion pops up about individual ability within the thread, that provides further direction for neophyte players; they'll see that some abilities are universally accepted while others might result with problems within the game.

As a reminder, guides that get moved to the Articles and Guides subforum are (hopefully? Probably?) reviewed by the staff before that occurs, so there's no need for a staff member to specifically write up the guide: it can be done by anyone! Taking initiative is awesome. Be bold!

And, for the record, I've been here for over two months and assumed that the vast majority of the abilities available to me on any of my characters were usable in roleplay. I'm an experienced roleplayer, I'm well-versed in lore, I've read the vast majority of this site (forums and wiki), and like to think that I'm a smart roleplayer. I don't think that this would be holding players' hands. While I wouldn't use any of the abilities myself, I learned from this thread that I probably never should -- which I didn't know.

[Jetniss]

Spoiler:

But the years spent in his field has to mean something right? I already said that's what a -thought- before I was told I couldn't do it.

I don't honestly care where it's ICly accepted and where it's not ICly accepted. He was faced with death, so he pushed for his last resort to try and escape. Not to mention he was fully wrapped in his cloth, a mask and all. No one could tell what he was, so it's not like he had any appearance to ruin. He was going to die to three people who attacked him in the arena(Not particpating in the arena); and he tried to escape.

Back on topic:

When a Dranei comes in with a profile of being a Paladin for twenty five thousand years or so, or a priest for the same time, you would think he knows everything he needs in the field.

Is it wrong to think devoting 25,000 years to a certain study justifies you having some abilities that CotH might deem overpowered? When there is no guide to such?

I'm just going to stop there. This'll go nowhere, I'll try to work with Azheron to make a guide and leave it at that. Less this escalates to something which will only spawn bad feelings toward one another.

You made the point that non-RPer spells can't be that powerful, so... why are you now shifting it to realism when that wasn't the initial argument?

I really don't know how a need for a guide is so sudden considering this all started out when it was stated you can't use metamorphosis.

They're not that powerful due to the drawbacks tied in with them, and I shifted to realism since that was one of the reasons used against my side of the conversation earlier.



As for how frequently it happens, alright. If it's not so frequent I see why it's not up there. Apologies for wasting so much time. I won't comment much more on that, but I'll go about an unofficial guide for later use that could always be dug up for later use, if it were needed.

And Piroska just summed up everything I thought.

[Harmonic]

...I can honestly see where Jetniss is confused here, as I'm sort of taken back by this too. I've used Metamorphasis ICly a few times, and summoned demons in the arena on my Warlocks before.

Why?

Here's my logic. What reason would the Goblin's have to outlaw Warlocks? They are -quite- accepting of all classes, and races, as long as it turns a profit. A warlock in a fight, is something a lot of races don't normally see. Something races would pay to see. So, on that side, it's a benefit.

But Rensin, Warlocks are strong!

Yep. But so is a Warrior who can use Titan's grip, or a super-stealthy Rogue.

And don't get my started on Deathknights.


I honestly thing you guys are going a little overboard here on "what is and isn't allowed", on all ends. I could see the Warlock getting in trouble over summoning something that goes on a severe killing spree... but this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Jetniss]

They're more getting on me using metamorph than summoning an Infernal I banished before being knocked out. When Brick, and Elil was at me and Marius was fending off the Infernal, 3 HP to a 5-6-7, Eraezel was desperate for escape.