Class Guides

[Jetniss]

We need Class guides. -Nod-
Detailing what can and can't be done ICly, and what's required for things ICly. A few things get shot down because something requires a generally powerful character, or someone who's been in the class a while. Somethings just aren't IC due to real world realism overrides Warcraft realism in some cases. If you wonder why I care, or why I say we need this it's from an experience just yesterday.

Spoiler:

My warlock, Eraezel, had resorted to trying to use metamorph ICly when faced with death after being attacked in an arena. He was forced to bring out an Infernal to use, and he was still facing death with a three versus two after the Infernal came down. The RP for using metamorph was shot down because it "takes a powerful lock to perform that". Eraezel has been a warlock long before the attack on Silvermoon, and he's studied and manipulated demons long before. His eyes were green with fel-taint long before Kael'thas came around, long before the original attack on Silvermoon by Arthas. His character profile is approved, and he's been a demonologist for years. Furthermore he's only visited his homeland once in his life before he left at a young age, and that was during the attack.

So the guidelines for classes would help define how powerful one must be, how skilled, or whatever requirements is needed for some abilities. There's probably not much since real world realism overrides game mechanic or warcraft realism, but for what's there it would help players sort things out. If an approved character whose lived for three hundred or so years has been denied an ability after being in the class for most of his life due to not being powerful, it seems a bit out of place.

[Maulbane]

I'll attempt to elaborate when my head clears, but this is certain: No infernals. Or metamorphosis. Those things are EXTREMELY high-tier, man.

EDIT: In addition, I can create a Night Elf and say "He's been an X for over XXXX years, so he's better than your character.". That's the problem with these things, it's hard to keep things fair.

EDIT2: The rule of thumb is in my opinion, spells past level 60 are a no go, because as I've said to death, in WoW you're a lore character. At level 60 you're fighting alongside champions of your faction in Silithus, destroying bosses IC and stuff. Which is why those spells should NEVER be taken as usable by your average character.

[Jetniss]

We can't ever be high-tier in a class?

I mean, there should be some level of skill here. Some people RP it themselves, lacking skill. Shouldn't there be some who make it high tier? I mean, high tier class wise, we are still below most NPC's. High tier to us is low-tier to lore-characters.

[Piken]

There are a large number of abilities I don't even -consider- IC that classes have(just look at a majority of rogue abilities). A lot of them are just mechanics abilities and only serve purpose in the PvE/PvP areas of the game, not the RP.

Now, for metamorphosis, I'd never say that's an IC ability a warlock can just learn. That's like near Felsworn level, IMO. And summoning an infernal(or a Doomguard, since the warlock class can do that, though it requires more work than just a normal summon) would also require, I think, to at least be a servant of the Burning Legion, or be an immensely powerful Warlock. Even in-game(not IC) a warlock can't control it with Enslave Demon, which shows even Blizzard recognizes that it's incredibly difficult to control an Infernal.

Just try to keep to what seems realistic, I guess. Rogues have no magical ability, so I always ignore things like shadowstep, etc. Take a step back and look at the ability. It may be fantasy, but taking into consideration everything around the ability and the character attempting to use said ability, it doesn't always make sense.

Edit: 'High-tier' classes are generally the prestige classes. So yeah.

[Jetniss]

I won't touch on the rogue concept, as I don't agree with half of it's IC use and such. Blizzard would make their explanation for the rules best. There could be some other powers at work, I personally think it's best for RP to fit around game mechanic rather than change the game to fit the RP. Anyways, metamorph isn't Fel-sworn level. Fel-sworn makes you a demon pretty much, whether half, mostly demon, or just a little bit. Metamorph is a tempoary transformation, it's literally thirty seconds of the form, something that should only be used as a last resort.

Also, Infernals can be enslaved by a warlock. There's some Infernals that walk around with a messed up ID, which is probably why the ones you're thinking of can't be enslaved. Some walk around with the ID "Demon", or "Infernal" and some with something else. They can still be enslaved. If you want to go with realism, a warlock whose been a demonologist for many years wouldn't be able to control high level demons? Or metamorph for thirty seconds?

Prestige classes are on another level, a high tier normal classed character is below that of a prestige class, equal with one at best. A good example would be a Demon Hunter's metamorphosis. Ten minutes to a warlock's thirty seconds. If they stay in the form longer than ten minutes, they become the demon permanently and lose themselves and such. So a high tier lock with thirty seconds in such a form is nothing compared to the prestige class who would have ten minutes in an arguably stronger form.

[rentreality]

Also, Infernals can be enslaved by a warlock. There's some Infernals that walk around with a messed up ID, which is probably why the ones you're thinking of can't be enslaved. Some walk around with the ID "Demon", or "Infernal" and some with something else. They can still be enslaved. If you want to go with realism, a warlock whose been a demonologist for many years wouldn't be able to control high level demons? Or metamorph for thirty seconds?

You can enslave Infernals, yes, but good luck keeping them enslaved. Blizzard has made it nearly impossible to keep them under control for the full duration of the spell, unlike other demons -- and when the spell breaks, they go straight for you.

Control? Yes, perhaps for a short amount of time. Summon? Most likely not, especially given that the Infernal comes in as a blazing meteor from space, courtesy of the Burning Legion, and the idea that Doomguards are some of their highest ranking soldiers and, in some cases, commanders.

The metamorphosis, well... The ability has always troubled me. I've never understood how a warlock could do that: they summon demons and use curses. They're not shapeshifters, and none of their other abilities give them demonic attributes. This is like jumping straight from basic arithmetic up to surface integrals and upper atmospheric physics in difficulty. I'd have to agree with Piken and say if you're pulling that off, you're either a Felsworn, or you're not IC.

[Piken]

I won't touch on the rogue concept, as I don't agree with half of it's IC use and such. Blizzard would make their explanation for the rules best. There could be some other powers at work, I personally think it's best for RP to fit around game mechanic rather than change the game to fit the RP. Anyways, metamorph isn't Fel-sworn level. Fel-sworn makes you a demon pretty much, whether half, mostly demon, or just a little bit. Metamorph is a tempoary transformation, it's literally thirty seconds of the form, something that should only be used as a last resort.

Also, Infernals can be enslaved by a warlock. There's some Infernals that walk around with a messed up ID, which is probably why the ones you're thinking of can't be enslaved. Some walk around with the ID "Demon", or "Infernal" and some with something else. They can still be enslaved. If you want to go with realism, a warlock whose been a demonologist for many years wouldn't be able to control high level demons? Or metamorph for thirty seconds?

Prestige classes are on another level, a high tier normal classed character is below that of a prestige class, equal with one at best. A good example would be a Demon Hunter's metamorphosis. Ten minutes to a warlock's thirty seconds. If they stay in the form longer than ten minutes, they become the demon permanently and lose themselves and such. So a high tier lock with thirty seconds in such a form is nothing compared to the prestige class who would have ten minutes in an arguably stronger form.

Well, the rogue thing was simply an example of how I feel all abilities classes have don't make sense/are too crazy for RP. Now I personally don't think that things should be based around mechanics because, in my opinion, a lot of the game's mechanics suck. :P But also, they focus on making the character very epic and powerful. That's how the quests are on retail. Which is something I'm usually against, as I feel it should all be earned. But that's a different topic.

Back on topic; the 30 second thing is a mechanics thing. I find it kind of meh that someone can turn into a demon for a short amount of time. Thinking about it, the amount of Fel corruption that one would received would be a large amount. That'd be like.. -pure- Fel energy, as you're -becoming- a demon. Which yes, you can say that's why it's a last resort, but I say it's a Felsworn thing because they pretty much become Demons and they can't just /cast spell and be one for a short amount of time. They need to spend quite some time injesting demon's blood or however they're corrupting themselves.

As for the infernal thing, I never said they couldn't be enslaved, I said that Blizzard recognizes that they're extremely powerful and that in-game a Warlock needs to immediately cast Enslave Demon in order to control it and can only control it for the spell's duration.

Now back to the prestige title thing. Demons Hunters don't just use metamorphosis and become demons for 10 minutes or whatever, like in Warcraft III. A demon hunter's(and felsworn's) metamorphosis is a permanent thing. A demon hunter begins to slowly take on the form of a demon because of the demon's essence within them. Once they start on the path, they can never stray from it. But that process takes quite a while. The same for Felsworn(as I enjoy repeating myself), they need to expose themselves to large amounts of Fel energy and if they manage to survive, they essentially become demons or half-demons or whatever you'd like to call it.

So, to say what I said before, I think metamorphosis and summoning and controlling an infernal are extremely high-tier things that are prestige-level or very close to it.

Edit: Rent did the Infernal explanation better than me. Thank you, good sir.

[Jetniss]

If that were true Illidan would be stuck in his black demon form rather than transforming back and forth. There's obviously a different way of going about the transformation is temporary. Fel-sworn is a permanent thing, maybe like a drug. A drug that's permanently scarred them. Metamorphosis is like a substitute.


I understand where you're coming from when taking in Fel, demon blood or whatever. That's a different concept however. There's different ways to go about something, taking in the demon blood in large amounts wouldn't be the only way to perform such an action, or else it would be permanent. The comparison is as simple as Illidan finding the skull of Gul'dan and making his steady and permanent transformation to the half(?)-demon thing he is now with horns, wings, spikes, and cloven hooves compared to his black demon form(which he still uses despite his permanent change).


Edit: Also this was made because there doesn't seem to be a prestige class tied to any of these lock related abilities or other abilities in other classes one might say is high-tier. It also seems a waste to make a prestige for a high-classed warlock; something like that would be truly overpowered to think their current powers would be amplified.

[Piken]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I think we're at a point in debate where everything from now on will be put into interpretation. The way I look at things in Warcraft III and in Burning Crusade, Illidan always remained in his 'demon form' after the first time he took it. After that, he remained permanently 'deformed' one could say (wings, hooves, etc.) and never really took on a 'true' demon form. The way I think of it all is that it was all done for balance and difficulty issues and reasons. In WC3 it was a balance thing, as they didn't want him to be OP, etc. and for BC, he was a boss and needed that RAWR part to make him more difficult, considering he was -the- end game boss. I see it as Blizzard is a gaming company, so they put 75% of their work and such into balance, difficulty, etc. and 25% into lore making sense(as we've seen many times, it's probably -less- than 25% considering the crap they've done) and things like that.

So yeah, that's how I feel about it. The demon hunter page says they eventually take on physical traits of a demon. The skull of Gul'dan could have given him a major boost with that, or maybe it varies between people. It's all difficult to say, as it's never truly specified(as far as I know). So I guess it comes down to what the GMs rule it as.

[Sourpuddle]

Well, when I look at metamorphisis, you need to understand that only a few Warlocks are able to do this-- However, this doesn't mean your character can't. I've narrowed down two concepts which you might want to use for this arguement.

Age and Experience

If your character is like, 21 (110), you're a far way from turning into a demon. I'm not saying that you are, I have heavy doubts you would do such a thing, however a middle age would not be appropriate. Turning into a demon requires rigerous amounts of practice, studying and training in Demonology specifically-- Which our friend Jetniss has down here. However, you would need to be a master Warlock in order to perform this-- How does that happen? First of all, your character has to be above 250 (if he's an elf) and he had to be training in Warlockry for a good portion. Second of all, you'd need to be trained by someone who could do such a feat (Which is very, very few, as we all know) or find the resources that would explain such a spell. Third of all, your character would lack social skills that he would normally develop in everyday society. You may think that the advantage far outweighs the disadvantage, but pair that up with your characters actual physical power-- not only as a scrawny Warlock, but as an old man. Plus, with the lack of social skills, you would never participate in something such as an Arena.

Fatigue

It'd be sort of weird to say that Warlocks meditate, because I myself doubt that idea-- However, if your character is prepared to do a really powerful spell, it wont be done when your mana pool is almost depleted. You stated that your character was going to use an extremely powerful spell to save himself, however, I would assume your character would use spells through most of the time that would drain his mana pool-- And thus his energy in general. When your character is fatigued, his spells are less effective-- and higher up spells that require massive amounts of energy just to initiate said spell become disabled. If your character was to ever commit such a spell, you'd have to find him either in a relaxed state or an energetic state (Don't think of it as 'happy'. . .Think of it as a feeling that just makes you want to get up and run around). These spells would also leave temporary and permenant side effects to your characters well-being, which after use may render you incapable of doing it again.

The idea is, it's not easy-- I'm not saying you said it was, I'm just saying that there should be very few people who are able to do this. With great power comes responsibility-- If your character was going around, promoting Warlockry and training apprentices, using his powers to fight off the worlds enemies and his own, I would have no problem with him turning into a demon.

However, you were in the arena, sorta chillin' in the Barrens. Personally, I wouldn't buy it in that location. Unless you were trapped and forced to fight in the Arena, I mean, I could sort of see it there. . .But with all the honesty in my heart, that just looks like a cheap move. But I know you didn't mean it that way. . .

Good luck sorting this out, then, guys.

[Jetniss]

Well actually, Eraezel, like my Night Elf, doesn't stay in one place. Most of his time is spent traveling and when he stops, he's awkward in social events. He doesn't talk with people, rather he butts into other conversations making them uncomfortable with his outburst, usually drawing attention from the fact that he's fully covered physically. He comes off as a concealed idiot. He wasn't in the arena lallygagging either, he was hiding under a carcass because the three people who were attacking him in the arena was passing by. Give his position, he made the foolish move of hiding under the remains of some dead creature from the arena, and after he was found(He coughed when a bit of the rotted flesh got to him), they proceeded to attack him.

Also, it was a roll battle. It was three versus one, and he was last up. 7 HP on two characters and 7 HP on a pet versus the scrawny lock with 7 HP, by the time it was his turn he brought out an infernal from the twisting nether with use of the stone and kinda let it go free. Then it was just a beat down fest since there's no movement rules in a roll battle. The little room he had in-between him and his opponents was closed in a single turn where the Worg bit down on his leg, kept him rooted and the hunter proceeded to cut him up.

[Secrettom]

-Message purged.-

[Jetniss]

Well I could explain it, and speak of the drawbacks. I was in the midst of doing it, and on a side note to explaining magic. There's no way to really explain it. That's why it's called magic, not science. Sure, Blizzard you could say you converted the water particles in the air, but how do you explain how you converted it? How do you explain controlling the temperatures? The answer is simple, magic. If you wanted to try and half-explain slow, you could warp time and space around a fixed point in which your magic slows down time by freezing particles, or molecules, or whatever in that fixed area.

Anyways, that explanation thing is poor as we're talking of magic. How does a blood elf paladin use light? Oh, he draws power from the Sunwell? That's miles away? On another continent? Arguably another planet or dimension? How do Warlocks enslave demons? How does a mage create fire from nothing? How does a warlock store a soul in a gem? How does a warlock even touch a soul to do something like that? How does half of the things happen in WoW that can be properly explained? It can't. This is fiction, which involves a lot of magic. Science does not work well in this department.

By the way, I never noticed that. The models look different(very different), and there's not much animation for the lock demon form.

[Secrettom]

-Message purged.-

[Hawk]

Spiderhands' views comin' up:

Think of it this way. If the ability didn't exist in game, would you even bother to try transform into a big demon? Of course not (I hope not anyway). You'd be shot down for being a Mary Sue and all that junk.

Well, lo and behold, it's basically no different. Blizzard game mechanics can't often be trusted simply because they cater to PvP players. They don't give a hoot about lore. I'd wager a lot of abilities in game can't be done, unless by lore figures. Which brings me to my next point...

Lore figures can contradict lore in so many ways. When you say Illidan can transform into a demon, well... who cares? You're not Illidan. You're you. Not a lore figure. They're really not a good thing to bring into a discussion on what a player can and can't do (most of the time) simply because they can do so many things. Don't even get me started on Aegwynn.

Personally? A lot of has to do with common sense. Maulbane has the right idea when he says there should be a cutoff point around a said level, but even then...you should simply know. That's the best way to explain it. World of Warcraft was not built for Roleplay and heavy story progression, that stuff stays in the background while PVP and PVE abilities are balanced out, worked on and generally paid attention to. Why? Because (Sadly) 90% of the players of WoW are more into that then lore.

And this. Bottom line: Regardless if it exists or not, metamorphosis cannot be done by players, so don't cause drama by trying to pull off something that's too overpowered.

Now, as to whether a class guide can be done? Well, we'd have to weed out a lot of in game abilities and it seems unnecessary considering it should all be common sense as Secrettom rightly said.

EDIT: Edited the final statement.