So... About this realism thing.

[Beltharean]

I'd also like to point out about the whole scale issue, in Stormwind -CITY- alone, there's supposed to be Twenty THOUSAND high elves. And they're a very small minority in the city. Stormwind's districts aren't the three block little squares we see in game.

To add up the total population for Stormwind (still, just the city, not the kingdom), the sum is...

Drum roll please;

Spoiler:

200,000 people, not including any Draenei or Gnomes

Granted, according to wowwiki, Thunderbluff only has 6,000 people, but you'd also have to take into consideration the fact that the dozens of very large (in size and number) that roam Mulgore would be at Thunderbluff almost instantly at a call to arms. A wyvern rider would be out the instant someone began to attack, to sound the call to defense.

Imma post the city stats for 'em all just for convenience here....

ALLIANCE:

Stormwind: 225,000 (That's wowwiki speculation to count in gnomes, draenei, any goblins, and other half races living in the city)

Darnassus: 15,000

Ironforge: 20,000

Exodar: N/A

Stromgarde: 1,200 (That's the Kingdom of Stromgarde, the majority of which would have moved back into their capital. That's not including any others who left the kingdom, and came back with the reclamation)

Theramore: 9,500 - 13,000




HORDE:

Thunderbluff: 6,000 (not counting the surrounding countryside. With that included, it's 9,000.).

Orgrimmar: 14,000-16,000

Undercity: 13,000

Silvermoon: N/A



OTHER:

Dalaran: 3,000 (Mostly human)

Goldshire: (HAHA! Listen to this... This is, I think, the largest difference in in game size, to 'real' size) 7,000 citizens

Zul'Aman: 20,000

Zul'farrak: 450

Timbermaw Hold: 1,250

Sen'jin Village: 2,000

Icecrown Citadel: Speculated at 250,000

Gundrak: 13,000

Gadgetzan: 1,500

Booty Bay: 1,000

Ratchet: 7,000-9,000 (Larger than Thunderbluff or Strom)









Now that I got that off my chest (ended up being a bit longer than a thought it would ) I'd just like to say, even a gun today wouldn't be able to stand up to a city full of druids. The best trained marines could come in with their guns, but the Forsaken in TB would spray them with the worst chemicals in either world, the drudis alone would be able to take them down easily. Can you imagine trying to take down an army of bears charging at you? What about panthers, stags, lions, GIANT hawks, etc?

Their shamans would be able to summon a fire elemental... And what a bullet going to do to a being made out of fire, really? Or an earth elemental? How about chain lightning? Their guns would be fried with the first lightning strike, and even if they weren't killed from it, they would be moments later with no gun.

[SweetSpirit]

And booty bay is larger than ratchet IG. -.-

Its a sure good thing we have our imagination, just like Cressy helpfully suggested ;3

[Nostra]

I thought I'd but in and say one thing.

The number 200,000 for Stormwind City's population is supposedly wrong, I remember reading (and being told) that it had been confirmed to be a typo. I guess the number of people in Stormwind would and about the same as in the other capital cities, maybe somewhere between 20,000 - 30,000.

[Azheron]

I thought I'd but in and say one thing.

The number 200,000 for Stormwind City's population is supposedly wrong, I remember reading (and being told) that it had been confirmed to be a typo. I guess the number of people in Stormwind would and about the same as in the other capital cities, maybe somewhere between 20,000 - 30,000.

Yeah, that number sounded a bit off.

I mean, that would be twenty times any other city, and -that- would be wrong.

[Beltharean]

Hmm... Lemme get back to you on that one, I have the Alliance Player's Guide right here, I'll check it out.

[Nostra]

Not sure which RPG book it was, but it was in one of them the typo appeared.

[Beltharean]

I can't even find a place where it tells you the population size FOR Stormwind

I did a quick search through all the RPG books for "Population" and then again for "Stormwind" and couldn't find it any where... Then again, I'm not known to be the best looker in the world. :roll:

It does seem a bit ridiculous though that it would be over 10 times as large as the other cities, haha.

EDIT: I found out the problem. The person who did it added a 0 to every number...

So instead of

140,000
28,000
20,000
8,000
and 4,000

It would be..

14,000
2,800
2,000
8,000.

Or, so I would assume. It would bring the total to the 'right' amount.



EDIT EDIT:

Page 52; Lands of Conflict. Says SW's pop is 200,000 twice. No way that can be a typo, right?

[anji]

The answer is a lot simpler: there is no realism.

Blizzard, like a lot of fantasy world inventors, didn't take too much realism into account when they designed their universe. Obviously there's plenty of realism within WoW, but if realism really mattered as much as we'd like it to, there'd be absolutely no need to play a warrior. Even though early guns weren't nearly as effective as they are now, the rise of muskets in the 17th century almost entirely defeated the purpose of armored swordsmen on the battlefield.

I've considered this before - if my character is carrying a gun, wouldn't three shots be more than enough to defeat anyone equipped in cloth? But, apparently, all classes even out in the WoW universe, and I'd suggest we keep it that way. Overdoing realism lets the man with the gun more powerful than everyone else, but going completely against that can be just as bad. I played a hunter once, and in every RP fight, nobody regarded my weapon. Armored characters would act as if my bullets don't penetrate their armor and therefore won't hurt (apparently, they're Iron Man), and magic characters would act as if their brain literally protects them from braun.

[Jetniss]

Wait, so now city size has to be fabricated in RP because it's not big enough for your needs? Jesus you over-complicate things.

Anyways, to whoever pointed out the plate armor, indeed that's good. I knew about that as is, but I already said I'm not talking about Blunderbuss or anything like that. I'm talking about those mid-tier/upper-tear guns that are stronger or more rapid or both.

My original point in creating this is to see the extent of how much crap is fabricated because it doesn't fit your logic for RP. If I recall correctly a good number of the guards can spawn add on guards and such whilst their fighting.

Spoiler:

So let's tally it up. Say an entire guild of fifty people went to attack Stormwind(If this server mustered enough to do so) and they all charged in ICly with guns. They would ultimately die because there's about thousands of guards in this civilian city -WALKING- or -OCCUPYING- the streets 24/7.



Let's see, they have plate, yes, but rapid fire from these more accurate mid tier guns and they're finished.

They have fabricated projectile weapons to fight back besides already carrying a sword and shield, thus outlawing the need for the ranged guards which do occupy some areas.

They wouldn't be able to attack most of stormwind seeing as Stormwind(Despite being big alread); isn't big enough to represent the real Stormwind because when it's a capital city someone imagines Sidney or New York, or London completely forgetting that Warcraft is big as is and they don't build as big enough because they are dated in realism and advanced in magic.

Let's see... They wouldn't have any chance of winning because even if they did amass the numbers or power to even break into the square by this fabricated standard, they would either get stomped for being revolutionary in their methods, coordinated to try and keep to lore, or the guards suddenly would have uber armor like tier nine or tier ten or something like what we're allowed to wear completely ignoring the fact that we're not allowed to be at the power of one guard in any city 70% of the time and if we tried to find out we'd get swarmed by thousands of imaginary guards.

Now, with that out of the way; that's the point I'm trying to make Anji. They try to apply realism to so many things that -shouldn't- be applied to. Warcraft is set how it is, RP it as it is instead of putting all these imaginary boundaries around and arguing realism in a fantasy game filled with space goats, limited screwy low-quality machinery, goblins, orcs, and the likes. Or at least put the GM commands to work and try to fill out the numbers or extend the city or something if you're going to argue it's not the size we're roleplaying in.


Edit: And maybe there was time Ratcher was a Capital city(Size wise; WoW Standard not our standard or a realistic standard because Azeroth doesn't hold our billions.)

It was trimmed down, the GMs could expand Ratchet if they wanted. I've seen it done on other server to be quite honest.

[Cressy]

Jetniss.

If you look at lore, the lore that the makers of World of Warcraft instated, then we are not fabricating anything. It is how it is.

If you don't like that..? Then well, I am sorry.

[Zunaj]

That there are thousands of people living in major cities is not fabricated. It's quoted from lorebooks. The cities do not reflect this ingame because that would make them ridiculously huge and laggy for an RPG.

The general opinion, both here and on other server, is that these numbers are correct. Except, maybe for the possibly typoed population number for Stormwind.

[Beltharean]

If a city could be taken out with fifty dudes who have guns, then there would be no such thing as war. People would just zerg a city with their huge army of fifty and demolish it. The thing is, is that there's not thousands of guards roaming the street, but rather, an army that is on call, not to mention any militia. Remember, almost every citizen will be trained to fight. They're in a world of constant threat of attack from land or sea, horde, the legion, the scourge, and the new threat of the Titans.

Now, these forces would not only have the home field advantage, but they'd be on the defensive with an army of thousands. These fifty people aren't going to be able to kill thousands of people with their guns. Even if they COULD because they're Chuck Norris or something, they wouldn't have anywhere near enough bullets.

[Jetniss]

That was a surprising reply.

Anyways, that's stated lorewise but it's not before our very eyes. Rather, maybe you're overestimating it. Like I said, you might be thinking some city on our planet when you hear "Major City" or "Capital"; but WoW's in-game city might be one that's suitable to WoW's size.

And even if say Stormwind has a military presence, they do -not- have all of their soldiers patrolling twenty-four seven. Soldiers need to rest, they have shifts, and they're not going to be everywhere in the city where civilians are supposed to feel comfortable and away from the war.

Whilst mentioning the war; a great deal of their soldiers are out fighting the war which the server isn't touching on.

Spoiler:

(Quite honestly, at how the server is looking; either NPCs are getting a move on with fighting Malygos and such, or Malygos is going to take the magic away from all of us; Arthas is going to raise Galakrond; Yogg-Saron is going to break free; Agalon is going to send the alpha code; The Titans is going to reconstruct Azeroth after they fight Deathwing; We're all doing to die; Server reset? Or are we going to ignore all of the "WoW" realism for the sake of slow progression here on the server following real world realism.)

Yes Belth, you're absolutely right, I was speaking in speculation. Fifty would be indeed enough(trust me, in our times we fight wars with squads of six striking key areas. Azeroth doesn't work or think like us, but I think Bolvar and Saurfang made a pretty good display of that when they attacked Ice Crown with two small squads which indeed worked until the Forsaken attack);

Well coordinated strikes work, strategy works(Which is why I don't get why ICly we're not capable of doing half of the raids that are critical to the lore; the only replies I've got is that "Striking down Malygos is impossible!"; and if stuff like that were true, and you really believe that, please open up that spoiler). Not to say fifty is going to take over Stormwind, but fifty is a foot hold that could easily occupy and slowly advance on Stormwind given Stormwind's main force is mass-produced plate armor and mass produced swords and shields, not projectiles per say(And the civilians aren't really trained for combat, if they were, they're level would at least represent it).

Edit:

Spoiler:

Now what this boils down to is this simple question: Why're you putting so many restrictions on us for the sake of realism when WoW has provided it's realism as is? Why try to make something more out of it when it's put right there in front of us?

If you're going to do that, put level caps on us, make us low tier like you say we are. Level 80 is the measure of power the champions who fought with Tirion are on against the Lich King. You'll never let us do that because by your standards you're basically telling us we're like... Level 40 probably, tops. Prestige maybe level 45 or 50.

[Bovel]

Now, with that out of the way; that's the point I'm trying to make Anji. They try to apply realism to so many things that -shouldn't- be applied to. Warcraft is set how it is, RP it as it is instead of putting all these imaginary boundaries around and arguing realism in a fantasy game filled with space goats, limited screwy low-quality machinery, goblins, orcs, and the likes.

Now you paint way too black and white. Realism in roleplaying does not mean that you bring it all into the real world, it means you base it around parameters of possible given withing by the game or the world or whatever you RP in. Let me take your guns for example.

The generic gun in world of present day Warcraft would be the blunderbuss. You shoot one shot at a time and you need to push each pellet into the gun through the muzzle, pour down some black powder and ignite with ember.
A more expensive but still accessible gun would be of higher quality and perhaps with a special quirk engineered into it, like being able to shoot two or three times on each reload or that the blackpowder is automatically put in for ten shots. These guns are also probably of such quality that they can be considered rather safe and the risk of blowing off a finger or a face is alot less.
A high-quality gun would start to involve some great craftmanship. These things are only avaliable for those who know the gunsmith or have enough money to get to know them. Most likely not only made with the purest metals but also very ornate. One probably would not even worry about loosing fingers with it cause it so rarely happens. Such guns would have tinkerings such as primitive magazines or even auto-igniters, perhaps even steam-powered instead of blackpowder. (These would be your mid-tiered guns and would be fairly represented by normal guns and rifles from modern day.)
Now we finally get into metal and magic mixed. Magic is a complicated things when it comes to RP, cause in theory with great enchantments, runes, engineering and simply smarts one could make a weapon that requires no ammo, propulsion or ignition and that can change it's ammo depending on target. But those are for heroes such a Varian, not for us mortals so if you even consider about having a weapon of this kind in-game you better have a longer list of downsides with it.

(Quite honestly, at how the server is looking; either NPCs are getting a move on with fighting Malygos and such, or Malygos is going to take the magic away from all of us; Arthas is going to raise Galakrond; Yogg-Saron is going to break free; Agalon is going to send the alpha code; The Titans is going to reconstruct Azeroth after they fight Deathwing; We're all doing to die; Server reset? Or are we going to ignore all of the "WoW" realism for the sake of slow progression here on the server following real world realism.)

Heroes still excist here on CotH I believe. We are just not those heroes.

[Cressy]

Because.


I know no matter what I say, you are going to argue with it. So I will leave it at that. Because.