Prestige Law?

[Drumgar]

Well, I respect that alot Rensin, I feel like equality is a big part, since we're all here, but in my mind modifiers might work in a PvE setting, such as a D&D event or what not, but yes, Prestige wouldn't make a character stronger, so much as specialized, as Nosrta stated it in his post. A Berserker, he's fury, he's heavy attacking and blind rage, but he drops in the area of defense, sure he can shrug off blows, but they still hurt him just as much, probably more so because of lack of armor and attention to protecting himself, while in the case of, well, a Spirit Champion, his abilities are tied with connection to spirits, probably not going to be as, not powerful, but as focused on offense as he is with tranquil and aware combat.

[Azheron]

My opinion is that, erm, if they've worked hard for it, they should gain some roll combat bonuses from it. Or then, the bonuses could be taken off, like perks in CoD6, if everyone agrees on it.

[Jetniss]

If everyone is equal, what's the point of having different races, classes, armor and all of that. Equality is a respectable concept, but it doesn't fly nor does it make sense. A guy going naked in an arena RPing a peasant shouldn't be on the same level as a fully armored and established Death Knight.

[Drumgar]

Okay? Then I like Gnomes, I like to RP Gnomes, and on a server where game mechanics happen to be roll modifiers, to be able to RP at least somewhat well combat wise, I would have to become an orc, and get all epic gear OOCly, because the Gnome is physically lesser, and well, my gear is the only thing he can afford. What I'm trying to say is, at least give the other person the benefit of the doubt, there's a reason why roll combat is roll combat to start with, because it's up to chance, if you'd rather have a fight that's more like a true battle? Try trust, if you don't have anyone who you can trust to trust fight with, then well, probably gonna need to stoop down to fighting a naked peasant in the arena in a roll battle.

[Jetniss]

Gnomes aren't made to be warriors, and if you go warrior you better be skilled. :|

[Harmonic]

It's less about equality and fairness, and more so about even odds. Odds are, in a fight, a person who has no fighting experience could get -lucky- and beat the hell out of another person. I'm also of the believe that "odds" are all made up, and an inperfect system, which is what this is doing. Odds are seldom correct, and fail to take in the "x" factor.

[Zukaza031]

how about prestige classes can roll twice? and take the best roll of the the 2 :> Then the fights would still be somewhat fair, anyways that's just my opinion

[lucifael]

I think that a class that takes more work and is supposed to be more able should indeed be represented in the mechanics somewhere. I mean if I have the same chance of taking down that celestial as I do kicking over a badger, them I think I might see what that celestial has in its pockets. If, however, prestige makes a difference and that guy has a Earth-mark on his sword and I happen to know the Earth-mark warriors are totally bad to the bone. I might want to show a little respect.

If there is no system then someone has to agree to be at a disadvantage and don't see immediately why someone would do that. I mean if I am playing a gnome and you are playing a Tauren. You might say that your size and strength give you an advantage but I could say that my speed and accuracy give me the advantage and look at those holes in your armor. I can see them from here. I, the gnome, should have the advantage. And so forth.

The system is just too varied and open for anyone to admit to a disadvantage unless they just really wanted to do so.

And since all things are equal I might want that Naaru's jacket. I figure I got an even chance.

[Monolith]

I think Ignus is a good example of this. He's a weakling, however he has the status of a Dark Apothecary. He can do crazy horrible things to his enemies and buff his allies, but his focus on his work leaves him vulnerable to being wounded easily. He can't shrug off wounds the way he would if he were not a Dark Apothecary, and just a warrior.

In my eyes... Specialized. Yeah. They need to give up something to go into something greater. Gunman? Melee lacking. Bonecrusher? Suspect to magical attacks. Archmage? Hurt easily, and bad when he is. Thats not to say it's not worth it however. Looking back to Ignus, he is perhaps one of the most deadly members of Eternal Unrest just for the fact that he can AoE and cause massive damage over time from his potion throwing, he can infect an area with toxic gas from his pack, and he can build necrotic minions if he so wished. Deadly and a master at his craft... But if you get to him, he's taken down easily.

[Vagabond]

In order for any of this to work, it would have to be balanced and made into a real system. D20..Storyteller...GURPS..One-Roll Engine...amber diceless...Nobilis...There is a reason they don't say "roll a d100 and add 15 cause your a *insert class name*"

Never seen or heard of a a prestige class getting something over on another class just because its prestige. Prestige is just a title and a specialization. Someone who has gotten a prestige has worked to specialize in something.

Often times in DnD prestige requirements boil down to needing to be level 4 ,7, or 10 to take that prestige. Now lets mix some numbers with character history.

You have a professional soldier that is level four, he decides after being a rank and file warrior for so long that he decides to break away from the formation to take up the prestige class of Cavalry man. He eventually levels three levels in that. So he has a character level of 7.

Now...The next soldier decided he wanted to stay a rank and file soldier when he hit level four instead of becoming a cavalry...He has leveled another three levels and is now a level 7 soldier.

Why should the prestige class get some bonus against the soldier? No...One is not 'better' then the other. One has just specialized for another role and for prestige...The Cavalry man has earned some skill in riding, the ability to move about the battle field easier, and bonuses to combat while mounted...The soldier has earned feats that allow him to fight better period, this generalization doesn't make him better then the cavalry man either. In a roleplaying games that use dice as the method of determining success or failure, one thing is standard: Balance, so no one decides to play one race/class over the next.

One thing stressed to DMs deciding to create something new is to ask this question: If I make this, will it make people want to be it because it is better then the rest? If the answer is yes, it's likely better to not make that change or create that new thing.

-Michael

[lucifael]

I believe that prestige and similar classes in system games receive abilities that are unavailable to other classes. The player is rewarded for spending the extra levels, the extra point, whatever resource the game uses. And the reward is gaining abilities and powers not available to a normal member of that class.

So your soldier has the four prerequisite levels in soldier needed to become a calvary man. Electing to go for it he levels as a calvary man and now he can ride a horse in combat, wield a lance, and fight from horseback. Which his fellow soldier can't do. Fighting from horseback give him a bonus in melee, the lance gives a bonus in reach and just being on a horse lets his get around better.

This is the sort of effort/reward structure that most games offer. If needed, I'm sure specific examples could be cited

While I am arguing this logically I should also point out that as a non GM I don't have to worry about how offering a bonus might affect the game.

Honestly this game only has a single resource. Writing. It has a single mechanic. The /roll. It is hard to find many creative ways to manage either such that different situations can be accounted, rewards offered and bonuses applied. Especially if one does not want to turn it into a more complex system.

I think it is a bit of a shame to make people write their way into a class that really offers nothing more than the “I climbed a mountain” satisfaction of looking back down a mountain but alternatives are slim.

I don't think I want to advocate making a more complicated set or rules around running die rolls. If I were forced to look at it like a GM then I would have to cede the point that the conflict is between interested parties and they need to work the conflict in a way that best reflects their vision of their characters and the interaction.

So, oddly enough, conflict is more about agreement than resolution.

Go fig.

[Etmosril]

I think that in many cases that yes, prestiges should be given a distinct edge in their area of study.

Here's a case in point: my character Kenarith was recently accepted for the prestige title of Assassin. Sounds all fine and good, right?

But an Assassin works through subterfuge - things like stealth killing, poisoning, etc. None of those one-hit attacks that Assassins specialize in are acceptable ways to kill someone on CotH. Poisoning without telling them? No. A stealthy attack from the shadows that should kill people in one hit? No. Corrupt intrigue that they know nothing about? No.

And in actual roll combat? They have zero advantage over your average Joe despite having worked for their prestigious-ness. It all boils down to luck of the draw again.
I'm not saying they should be superpowered. I'm saying they should see some tangible benefit from their training. After all, anyone can make a character specialized heavily in one area. You don't need a prestige for that.

[Zukaza031]

I just had a genius idea...

First of all, I think prestige classes should be 90 instead of 80 (this just gives less confusion, wether he is a prestige class or not).

Secondly, I think all prestige classes are somewhat feared, since they are stronger then others, so they should atleast have something more. Now my suggestion is, to create that fear, that prestige classes, when they kill someone's charachter, they won't be able to come back. (No ressurection treads get approved).

Now to work out in combat I'm really not sure yet, I think it indeed should have something like a crit counts for 3-4 hp.

[MrBubbles]

I just had a genius idea...

First of all, I think prestige classes should be 90 instead of 80 (this just gives less confusion, wether he is a prestige class or not).

Secondly, I think all prestige classes are somewhat feared, since they are stronger then others, so they should atleast have something more. Now my suggestion is, to create that fear, that prestige classes, when they kill someone's charachter, they won't be able to come back. (No ressurection treads get approved).

Now to work out in combat I'm really not sure yet, I think it indeed should have something like a crit counts for 3-4 hp.

This just sounds like an excuse for people to have overpowered characters that they can flaunt over others. It's rather unnecessary.

The prestige title system wasn't put in place so that players who have the titles can wave them about over everyone else's heads; it was intended as a form of character development. Yes, the shiny title is nice, but we want you to get something else out of it too.

And, if a player wants a prestige title solely for the power it gives, the application will more likely than not be denied.

Edit: I hadn't read most of this thread at the time I responded to Zukaza's post. But! I agree that perhaps some form of 'official' combat benefit could be warranted. However, there is a line between prestigious and imbalanced.

[Zukaza031]

This just sounds like an excuse for people to have overpowered characters that they can flaunt over others. It's rather unnecessary.

The prestige title system wasn't put in place so that players who have the titles can wave them about over everyone else's heads; it was intended as a form of character development. Yes, the shiny title is nice, but we want you to get something else out of it too.

And, if a player wants a prestige title solely for the power it gives, the application will more likely than not be denied.

Well I don't mean get the prestige classes overpowered, I just try to encourage that people think twice before attacking a prestige class, since they are better trained at certain points.