Prestige Class Mechanics: Post-Restart

[Shane]

I want to suggest a change in the combat roll mechanics of the Prestige Classes.

Reason:- One reason is the character's IC status amongst other characters, right now with all characters having equal chances of victory when engaging in combat, they need not be afraid of/respectful to anyone whoever the other guy may be. I don't think we rely too heavily on chance when it is more or less evident who the stronger fighter may be.


Secondly, it would add variety to roll combat and make it more exciting and enjoyable.

What I am proposing is not to make the Prestige Classes overpowered but to give them a bit of leverage over Core classes. So, instead of having everyone do a turn by turn roll, the Prestige Classes can have a roll system that's related to what that particular class' abilities are.

Take a look at this:-

Spoiler:

If a Assassin/Spymaster is able to sneak up on someone (IC-ly of course) he automatically makes a critical hit in case he wins the roll.

A Duelist can roll twice every alternate turn but would be easier to unbalance on receiving a critical hit.

Bonecrushers could stun the opponent for a turn if they land a critical hit but being unarmored, would suffer from bleeding damage if the opponent makes a critical hit.

A Wilderness Stalker could make a specific roll for fleeing combat if the fight is taking place in a forested area.

A Mountain King would require a critical hit to take down.

Sisters of steel would have 10-20% more Hp but will not be able to give chase to the target

These just to give an idea of what I am suggesting and are just rough examples.

Giving these "perks" to the Prestige Classes wouldn't necessarily mean that they always will have an advantage plus it would spice up the combat system.

Cons:-

Everyone rushing off to have their characters get a Prestige Class

As you can see, a Prestige Class wouldn't have that much combat advantage, also, given the various requirements that are currently in place for Prestige Class applications are sufficient for ensuring that no-one applies just to exploit this feature.

Thanks for giving it a read.

Edit: fail grammar

[Ben]

I agree with this, on the entirety. The character is no longer the typical, so why treat them like they are? And the aforesaid possibilities are definately reasonable ways of attaining this.

YEAAAAAHHH!

[Vind101]

In my opinion I think most of the roll combat should be changed because nobody has respect for anyone because they believe they have a chance in the roll battle, like lets say a unarmed warrior and not a skilled warrior vs a paladin that has trained his entire life and is in full plate.

I believe the warrior shouldn't have much of a chance.

[Jacula]

In an ideal RP there wouldn't be any need for rolls. But I do see the predicament of that notion since people tend to be overly attached to their characters, something I understand completely. I myself find it to be exciting that both have an equal chance of winning, then again the reality of some characters simply being stronger or more skilled than others is a fact.

With that said, there will always be a clash of interpretation.

[Manufreak101]

In my opinion I think most of the roll combat should be changed because nobody has respect for anyone because they believe they have a chance in the roll battle, like lets say a unarmed warrior and not a skilled warrior vs a paladin that has trained his entire life and is in full plate.

I believe the warrior shouldn't have much of a chance.

(1) Soo true, you have to take into consideration on things like this, even if it will cause you to lose, besides, it's all part of the RP fun where you improve, earn money, get better armour, and generally become a better, more skilled warrior.
(2) Also, not all classes have a proper, strong and something-to-be-proud-of prestige class, like druids, unfortunately, as all we got is a prestige class is where we stick to one animal form for a long time, and when we try tom revert to our normal form, we'll find it nearly impossible. Plus all the RP you'll get is with animal NPCs (Unless someone tags along). As much as I want to chill with the cats in the Barrens in my travel form, I really don't see much fun in that.

[Shane]

...nobody has respect for anyone because they believe they have a chance in the roll battle...

Now that I think about it, its pretty much impossible to get respect from someone IC-ly simply because you are more powerful than him. A Prestige character should also act according to his status, I doubt anyone would accept Thrall as their leader if he was a prick, even though he is the greatest shaman ever.

Secondly, it isn't necessary to have a Prestige Class to get respect, if someone is overly disrespectful towards you, getting a Prestige Title won't change that guy's attitude.

Yes, adding this mechanic will generate some awe/respect for the Prestige Classes but simply this won't be enough to get people to respect you. Thankfully, the peeps at CotH are a mature lot.

[Errata]

Just speak to the other player if you feel like one of the characters deserves the edge in battle. Don't set up standard combat rules that some people just ignore because they go by another system of combat rolling. It's likely to create drama.

[Shane]

Yes, that would have been best, win/loss in combat is secondary to having fun, but I've noticed that when it comes to people's characters losing/winning, coming to a mutual understanding becomes difficult. Also, one purpose of this system is to discourage people from picking fights with someone just for the sake of it.

I am not sure if there would drama over such a system, its not that Prestige classes would be made OP, its basically adding more variety to their combat mechanics.

[Knock]

I think that some Prestige Classes should definitely have an advantage over other players. Examples like Gladiator and Blademaster represent characters who have put considerable time into their training and skill. They would have an advantage over the average soldier.

People often come up with the naked peasant vs. armored veteran analogy when this discussion rears its head. True, the peasant has a chance at beating the veteran, but it's far more likely that he'll lose. So why should they have (mechanically) an equal chance? While the peasant could be very lucky, the roll mechanics should represent this. The peasant would have to roll very lucky to win.

It's the same for prestiges that are combat oriented. They should have an advantage over the average soldier.

As for balancing, I think the only way to implement this would be to have a weakness for each prestige. For example perhaps Gladiators become more susceptible to magic damage?

On the notion of people applying for a prestige just for an edge in combat: I've just completed prestige training for one of my characters, and let me tell you it's a hell of a lot of work. It's going to take several weeks at the very least and a lot of hours typing. The way I see it, if someone's willing to put that much dedication in just to have a very slight edge, then they deserve that extra edge. It's almost representative of the time and efforts their characters are putting into becoming a prestige class.

Oh, and just to clarify. Although I have yet to get into any RP fights with my Demon Hunter (and I don't plan to unless absolutely forced to), I'm thinking that he should have an advantage against fel users, and a weakness to missile fire/ ordinary ranged magic. Hand to hand should be on par with everyone else. Of course if there's going to be an unavoidable conflict, then I'm going to make sure that the ground rules are set down before any fighting begins, so that the roll system is fair for everyone.

[Xigo]

Look, guys, if you can't figure out whether or not your character should be on equal grounds with another in a fight, then I don't know what to tell you. If you honestly complain that your peasant character should have as much health and do as much damage as that knight character, then please, start thinking realistically.

Essentially, I believe everyone should try rating their character on a small scale, representing combat abilities.

Here's what mine is.

Spoiler:

1 - No Training, No Experience (Peasant)

2 - Partial Training, Little to No Experience (Militia)

3 - Full Training, Little to No Experience (Footman)

4 - Full Training, Experienced (Veteran)

5 - Full Training, Highly Experienced (Knight)

If we could rate our characters just by saying 'My character is as skilled as a peasant' before a fight, then we'd be able to figure out 'well I should get better rolls because my character is as skilled as a footman'.

Think realistically people. There is luck in fights, but it is highly unlikely a peasant would beat a knight.

[PiesOfNub]

I believe that Prestige classes are mostly based on character development, however, there's also combat bonuses. That said, it's not like a Prestige class Archmage would gain a ~+4 to initial health, or something. It's gotta be realistic. And it's safe to say an Archmage would completely own a regular mage in a fight, so yeah.

However, most Prestige classes also have their cons. Take my Blood Burner thingy for example. A Death Knight may specialize in Blood Magic, but lose grasp of all other Death Knight abilities. This goes to show that most Prestiges are not buffed-up classes, but rather just tuning into a subclass at the loss of the use of other classes. A Bonecrusher would be a Protection Warrior, a Duelist an Arms Warrior or Combat Rogue, a Necromancer being a Shadow Mage (Which isn't really a subclass, but ya know.).

You can expect a Bonecrusher to take heavy hits and beat the ever-loving sh*t out of his opponents, but don't expect him to retain his agility pre-training. You can expect a Duelist to be able to cut circles around his opponents, but when he takes a hit, he TAKES A HIT.

That said, combat bonuses should be decided between the players who're fighting. Although, if someone playing a peasant refuses to allow a an opponent playing a Duelist to gain an advantage in battle, that's pretty goddamn shoddy. The peasant didn't write 15+ pages of how he trained himself, and strained himself to perfect his body and mind.

[Piroska]

I think that it's general policy that staff members don't mandate how roll-based combat is handled. There are a variety of systems in place, many of which are fairly different, even with core similarities. We can't standardize everything because it could be a /50 system, a /100, 10 hit point, 5 hit point -- the varieties are endless, therefore no single rule could be applied.

That said, the main area in which we try to control prestige classes in their abilities. Prior to getting approved, an individual must list and describe what abilities his character will possess once the training begins and how they will be used ICly. Most of these are fairly strong (and sometimes a bit esoteric), but they can be utilized in combat to provide an advantage.

Generally, combat -- no matter how it is handled -- is a trust system. You need to communicate with your fellow roleplayer to establish rules ahead of time. I know that in fights in the past I've willingly placed restraints on my characters while giving advantages to my opponents because they excelled in an area where perhaps my characters were a bit weak. If you and your opponent feel the same, discuss and come to an agreement about those bonuses ahead of time.

[Nostra]

And it's safe to say an Archmage would completely own a regular mage in a fight, so yeah.

No, it isn't. Why? Precisely the reason you yourself gave.

most Prestiges are not buffed-up classes, but rather just tuning into a subclass at the loss of the use of other classes.

That is, the prestige will have advantages in certain areas but will have disadvantages in others. Ideally the class would be balanced so there is no class that can say they will allways win a fight against X or Y. An example could be a demon hunter, one of the more popular classes that are also often portrayed as being extremely powerful (which I blame on Illidan fanboism*). The demon hunter would definitely have the advantages of agility, speed and skill with his chosen weapon, but at the same time he's wearing virtually no armour and have a constant battle to reign in the demonic spirit(s) bound to his body. This would mean that if the demon hunter would be hit by say, a warrior with an axe, chances are the damage will be greater than it would for most other combat characters, maybe the pain even gives the demonic entities within the hunter a chance to grasp control or influence the demon hunter in another way as well...

Anyone fighting against a prestige character could aim to exploit their disadvantage to win, while obviously it'd be in the interest of the prestige character to exploit their advantages to secure victory. Unless, of course, there's more interesting RP as a result from either part losing, then it might be better to just decide who wins beforehand.

However, as we do not support any specific PvP system on CotH there will be no official combat bonuses to a character that passes through prestige training, it is up to the participants of the roleplay to agree on how to handle the situation if it does come to a battle. People are of course welcome to create systems that better represent a characters advantages and disadvantages but do not expect us to say that this or that particular system is "right" one.

Prestiges are ultimately not there for you to make your character more powerful than anyone else, but to further character development.


*Yes, fanboism. /nod

Edit: Slow poster is slow.

[Darkneon]

Anyone fighting against a prestige character could aim to exploit their disadvantage to win, while obviously it'd be in the interest of the prestige character to exploit their advantages to secure victory.

I, personally, think that this is also something to be careful with. As it is easy to meta-game by using OOC knowledge of a certain class to beat them in an IC battle. Though, this counts with any class, core or prestige. Thus, battles should be chosen wisely. It is to be considered even more when fighting a prestige, as they are not as common as the basic fighters you run into, so their strengths and weaknesses are not always known.

[Aphetoros]

(2) Also, not all classes have a proper, strong and something-to-be-proud-of prestige class, like druids, unfortunately, as all we got is a prestige class is where we stick to one animal form for a long time, and when we try tom revert to our normal form, we'll find it nearly impossible. Plus all the RP you'll get is with animal NPCs (Unless someone tags along). As much as I want to chill with the cats in the Barrens in my travel form, I really don't see much fun in that.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Plagueshifter