Make something less restrictive..?

[Kretol]

So, this was an idea I had yesterday while at work, and forgot to post it when I got home. It was originally going to be a poll, but I figured making people think more and respond with some details would be more beneficial.

Anyhow, if there was one thing on the server that you would like to see be less restrictive, what would it be? It could be something like greater potential for characters (ie, being a bit more than the average Joe), less focus on racial restrictions, less restrictions on relations in profiles (ie, having some sort of relation with an NPC (BUT STILL NO MAJOR LORE FIGURE RELATIONS)), not as harsh on names, etc.

What I want is for you to state what sort of advantage this would provide, if whatever you offered were to come true, as well as a disadvantage if it were to come true. I want people to think in a bigger perspective, so I feel that offering both a strengthening argument and an opposing argument would be helpful.

[Anski]

In theory, making characters less realism restrained has always been my biggest itch.

The Pro Argument

As Grakor has brought this up before, allowing characters to expand into less-realistic senses has opened up a gateway for ability to RP. What this does is allow someone who sits in a tavern wishing they could be off fighting huge monsters, blasting out walls of fire, summoning a group of demons to fight for them, they are limited by this in the sense of inability to do so. Now some people think that a fortune of Tier armor looks particularly silly, but restraining yourself leaves one perhaps under armored for the viable monsters and demons that cascade the current WoW universe. The huge plethora of OP, or 'Overpowered' gear instilled to the database of our game is taunting us at every whim. A player looks upon it and questions, 'Why can I not use this?' He is met with the response of 'Because it is too overpowering.' Now, a man comes to a fight with a dagger and leather armor, and another steps up in massive plate and a broadsword that could cut through a small zeppelin. However, if both men step up with their highest available weaponry and armor, the battle will be grandiose and dramatic. Sparks will fly from blades, heavy hits will be blown. If all men are given the equality to use what they want, then there are no sub-equals around. Adventures will triumph as groups of mythical adventurers, or heroes as WoW in game continually shows us as, go to undertake great tasks and reap wonderful rewards. Instead of the group thinking 'Oh, we can't possibly do this,' they begin to think 'We can do this if we pour our heart and soul into it and reap the rewards!' My idea of a perfect RP is to have a group of heroes band together and undertake some great monster or guardian to reap treasure. D&D like, I know, but there's a reason that game has been around for 40 years now. In conclusion of the Pro argument, this will open up the ability for characters to stretch their legs by allowing them to be stronger, better and faster at what they do. Masters, not quite. Better than the average wanderlust, by far.


The Contra Argument

Now, ego floats and it rises like a parfait in the oven. Men with large swords will begin to think that they are, infact, immortal. Even more so are men who think they could take on Arthas in a bare knuckle fist fight. This is where the reapportionment of the restraints, had they been proverbially lifted, is recalled into the center of application. This starts by saying that a player cannot do [x] because it is beyond the mortal strength of one man. This is counteracted, only slightly, by the group of heavily 'overpowered' men to do the task one cannot. The restraints continue until wearing something that is glowing is just unrealistic and the player won't be tolerated playing in our community if they simply refuse change. Players have worked hard so far to make their characters more, well, human, in a sense. All races are in a Freudian theoretical value human in their own ways, and it is the meta-psychological sense that they are human by their base limitations. If characters have no limitations, then in this theory they cease to remain human. A good example of this is Rensin's namesake character. Rensin has put a lot of time into Redjaw to make him powerful, but limited power. It is, in my mind, the ultimate human character. The flaws are vital, the strengths are pulsing. The characters who are powered by loosening restraints will be focused less on their ability to physically change but rather their ability to mentally change. It will lie heavier on personality rather than what they can do. This isn't to say characters can't restrain themselves, but many will be disenchanted with the idea if everyone else is saying 'OH I'M SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU AT [X], [Y] AAAAND [Z]!" when the original, restrained character will be trying to become better at X, has a good idea of Y and knows nothing of how to perform Z. To conclude the Contra argument, restraints will have to be replaced if people cannot control themselves to the point of being strong to the thin line of being immortal.

And if that doesn't work, please, for the love of Cthulhu, Kretol, allow word nicknames for Forsaken only, if that. It seems just so appropriate for their race.

[Baltaj]

Well, that makes sense. When everyone is overpowered in the same way, nobody is truly overpowered. Conficius said so, or do I remember wrong?

Maybe it's too early for me to make critics, but I've seen an opinion I like. (And I myself happened to expone similar ideas on other topics on other servers on other games.)

I don't really know how you play characters here, nor I know exactly what degree of realism is there, so I speak without real, accurate, knowledge of the situation. But I guess that we should roleplay as it is, with some reasonable limits (and it's up to you GM's to decide this limits, of course) every single spell of a mage, every single hokuto move of a warrior or rogue, every single miracle of a priest or paladin, every single glowing/sparkling/flying piece of armor or weapon we see in the game.

I saw some people here speaking sarcastically of "DBZ powers" ... but seriously, some skills really should be role played in a DBZ-like way. A mage who blinks 20 yards away in a mere fraction of second? Oh yeah! A paladin who throws a kamehameha! holy shock? Oh yeah! And so on!

I think that those things are good and fun to play... as long as everyone knows how to play them without to godmode.

The idea is... Why don't we make a list of skills, and how those skills should be role played in their full power, but without to be too much overpowered? I know that's a huge work... but it could really be something interesting. (and maybe you already did something like that but I didn't notice? May be!)

Once again, sorry if I come here and post even before finishing to create my own character, but that's surely an interesting topic. :mrgreen:

[Xigo]

Here's what I think.

-We-, the players, are the heroes of the collective story that is COTH.

NPCs are the supporting cast.

Because of those two beliefs, I think that less restrictions should be allowed. PCs should be able to rise to heroic status. Not that of 'major NPCs' like Arthas. But...doing something special. Something that elevates you slightly. Something that puts you above that random NPC in Ratchet. And yes, I know one can technically do something that elevates them, but it tends...not to be supported. People don't like it when you rise above the status of Average Joe.

I'm not suggesting everyone become super heroes.

Actually, let's say this is Warcraft 3. You're playing as the human faction. Now imagine each individual unit you build is a player or NPC.

That footman you built? NPC.
Rifleman? NPC
Pesant? You get the drift.

Now that Paladin, or Archmage, or Mountain King you build. Sure, he starts off -barely- stronger than those 'NPC' units. But he can do something the other units can't do. Develop as time goes on. He levels up while they do not. He becomes something...above the basic unit, yet not completely game changing alone. This character is a player character.

What I feel right now is that in COTH, we are pretty much always going to be that footman. We'll never really rise above footman status. Or peasant status. We're stuck as whatever the character was initially made out to be. We never grow past that (Well, we do, but it's unlikely that the ''growth' is really major)

Of course, the problem with that is say...two players have Mountain Kings. And one manages to get their Mountain King to a higher level than the other. Well the one with the lower level Mountain King feels pretty inferior. Feels like his Mountain King isn't as useful as the other's Mountain King. So the downside is feeling like your character isn't that important while amongst larger than life figures (Or at least, 'larger than you' figures.)

For those of you that tl;dr, here's the jist of the post. Players should be more special than NPCs, but not more special than eachother except in rare circumstances.

I'm sorry, that went on longer than I thought it would. But that's what I feel. >.>

[Baltaj]

"We are all heroes: You and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere! Rejoice!"

That could be summarized like this!

(sorry for the out of topic, now I'll simply shut up, I promise.)

[DaveM]

To OP:

Super heroes.

So maybe at one point all of the 50 people online want to be said superheroes. (It won't be the case)

50 superheroes active at once is something bareable to a fantasy world at a given time.

I hate realistic events in which I'm kept at roughly the same realistic level as -one- other troll hunter or -one- leper gnome or -one- quillboar. If I wanted to brawl with tight one-on-one odds - I got lads 'round my block just eager provide.

PCs? Equal. Even the lowly apprentice. The specific nature of the PC lowly character is that -only he- has a chance (see rolls) to stand up to the PC Hero. So that nobody gets into the habit of spoiling other people's RP.s.

So my verdict would be: Let loose the powerlevel relatively to the world - not relatively to each- other.

At the same time, PLEASE don't relax the lore. Names need to sound like they belong to their culture, characters need to have good explanations for deviation from the important traits of their race/class.

N.B.: Maybe, so that we don't get too much inflation of powerlevel should this be the wanted direction - one super-hero/(prestige?) per player. Perhaps even recorded as such in a IC-Heroes thread with a few posts.

Edit: To what's after OP - Anski's post mostly:

Quite simply - I don't think restrictions make for better characters at the end of the day. He who writes a perfect-in-every-personal-and-combat-related-way-god-character in a superhero universe will also write a crap character after you throw the restrictions his way.

However, with exceptions and mid-way adjustments to be done -

I trust this server to write good, nuanced, flawed, moderate, yet epic. Super-Heroes.

We don't want to be Thrall, his cousin, or have adventured at his side. But it'd be nice if we were the sort of people he might've heard about.

Edit: Races: 20.000 high elves in Stormwind. Almost as many as Dwarves. I say that would make Special-Progile-approvable-1/player legit playing such a race. If the skins can fit. The same would go for goblins etc.

[Bovel]

I have been trying to think of something now for a while, but I cannot really come up with anything I want to lessen restrictions on at the moment, might have to come back about that.


On the current topic; I think I must be arrogant enough to say that people perceive the restrictions here on CotH when it comes to characters and such wrong. Yes, we are supposed to limit our characters to a realistic level of the game, but we are not restricted in epicness or miracles, just being a death knight is to border super-hero.

In short, we are the normal people that not so normal things happen to. My farmer might be limited to a normal level of strength and weaponry, but when during an event we roleplay that gnoll raid he might be both adrenaline filled and have luck on his side and perform what seems like a heroic act, slaying most of the pack single handedly with a pitchfork without acquiring more than a few scratches. THIS is the kind of heroes and heroism we can and should limit to. I do it all the time and have not got a single complaint of being OP or anything in that manner.

My foundation on this view comes from LARP where we are limited to our own human bodies. If I, orc grunt meet an elf ranger in the forest and we two both know others are watching, it will be better RP if we OOCly work together to make a good looking fight, instead of us two having to fight for real and each so hellbent on winning and still not hurting the other one, it looks bad and is boring for anyone looking. Making good roleplay for all > anything else you might throw at this.

Another good example of this was during some boat RP I was on, a ghost-ship with a lich came up to along side and we got into a combat 7 vs 1. Instead of just letting my elf stand at the back, flinging arrows he draws his sword and use the bent over orc infront of him as a ramp to get a good aerial attack on the thing. Very possible and very heroic, the realism part comes here; tackling a huge frozen skeleton in mid-air and then falling unhindered to the deck hurts!

Yet another downside with super-heroes on CotH is what will happen to them next. It's naive to think that these heroes can live a calm and normal life. Nobles and chieftains and whatnot will want to meet and marry away their kids and so on and so on. Super-hero nelf 1 would not sit in Ratchet kicking back a brew, she would be stuck in banquet after ball after dinner and walks in the park, beer in Ratchet might seem tempting right about then so let's say the hero manage to sneak there. Nope, you are not coming in, goblins do not want goody-two-shoes heroes in their town, will ruin their business.
Soooooo, no. Allowing heroes seem like a bad idea.


One thing I thought of though would be to restrict the addition of clutter to the game, cause sometimes there is just too much. (I want Feralas arena back...)

[Harmonic]

I appreciate the kind things Anski said about me. My characters probably wouldn't be half as fun to write about if they weren't so damn flawed.

Speaking of which, Rensin recently died in an arena match, horrifically. I know it's hard for people to fathom, but part of the reason I'm able to write in this manner is because I've always been willing to let go of my characters at any given moment. They are what I'd like to call the anti-hero, a character who by all reason and logic probably should end up dead, or brutaly murdered.

They face danger, and through their trials grow stronger, only to creep closer to the inevitable.

It's always been my personal preference to play the character who -isn't- super amazing. At least, not in the way where he's super over powered, and can assert control over people, either ICly or OOCly.

Part of the reason I've been so vehemently against others making characters that are "above normal", is because you can achieve a glorious status just by roleplaying them extensively. Going from a lowly farmhand to a Warrior is a -huge- thing. Going from slave to Arena legend is a -huge- thing.

And oddly enough, these things happen to people not because we say "WOOP UR A HERO", but because they -earn- it through their roleplay. It's sort of how I view prestige classes as well. Through hard work, your "Heroism" is defined not by a status given to you initially, but through the adventures and actions of your character.





I can guarantee my words will fall deaf on some ears. This is my -sole- opinion, of course. I just hope you guys can see it from my perspective, or at least attempt to.

[PiesOfNub]

Personally, I see my own character, Malth, a hero of sorts. He has overcome Necromancers, Scourge, Humans, Orcs, and almost every race imaginable. Even Blue Dragons, for crying out loud! (<3 Wallruce for the event)

What I had in mind when I first conjured up the idea of Malth was a lot different to what he is now. I originally thought him to be a mute of the rest of his un-life, but that changed. I originally thought of him as a silent, brutish type who just lived to kill Scourge. However, over time, he evolved beyond that. He became the Death Knight that he is today. He killed a Scourge Necromancer, he slayed Blue Drakes and their kin, slaughtered Mage Slayers, and turned Ghouls to dust with his fists. All said and done, I'd be somewhat devastated to let Malth go, but I know that if I did, he would put up one hell of a fight. Malth, in my eyes, is a Hero of the Ebon Blade, and in turn, simply a Hero.

A hero is one who exceeds expectations. Malth definitely exceeded mine by far.

In conclusion: If you wanted to make your character a hero, you've probably already done so.

[Anski]

Remember folks; don't stray off topic and focus on just the characters, Kretol made this thread for a wide variety of restriction loosenings.

Also you may feel free to refute my arguments but i'm not going to reply back and start some huge argument over this, my stance is my stance and no matter how you wave your opinions infront of my face i'm not changing it.

Edit: Also people, remember, show both sides of your argument like Kretol asked. Seriously.

[Terant]

For the "Less focus on racial restrictions" part, what would that mean? Would we get to play like... Furlbogs or Goblins or anything that isn't playable now?

[Kretol]

For the "Less focus on racial restrictions" part, what would that mean? Would we get to play like... Furlbogs or Goblins or anything that isn't playable now?

That is, theoretically, a possible choice.

Also people, remember, show both sides of your argument like Kretol asked. Seriously.

This. I want folks to think about both the potential good effects and potential bad effects about any of these changes.

[Tobeh]

I wanted to through this out there.

Honestly, I feel exactly how Pies and Rensin feel.
I view some of my characters as just normal folks, but then their are a couple of them I veiw as abnormal. I Roleplayed on these two for weeks straight and created mini storylines and they seem to be in situations that make them a slight bit abnormal. I don't think people should just say "I want powerz" and then start RPing a character that is a hero. I think they should work on it.

On a more on topic note, I honestly can't see anything that should have less restrictions. Seems all fine and dandy. "If it's not broke, don't fix it."

[Terant]

The basic premise of roleplaying any character on CotH is to have your character "rise through the ranks" through roleplaying and by making your character known. You don't start off as a hero; you become one. People often comment on how many of my characters are in high places, but in all honesty a lot of that comes from having been on CotH for a long time and having been active pretty consistently the whole time. When you roleplay a lot, your characters accomplish more. It's a pretty basic concept, and it's how CotH has worked for a long, long time. For instance, Pies considers Malth a hero as he mentioned earlier. Look at all the things he accomplished. What I'm saying is that there is no problem when someone has status if they have actually gained it through IC activities. If someone makes a profile for a character who supposedly already killed a Scourge necromancer and blue dragons... That would be a very different story. That's when the problems start.

Relations to NPCs: I have no problem with this as long as there are no "Major lore character" relatives, but what would constitute as a major lore character? Would it be just the basic Arthas/Varian/Thrall/Garrosh people or would that category include more minor but still important people like the general near the Stormwind gates or someone in the House of Nobles?

Racial Restrictions: Unless GMs are willing to make items that morph us into said race or change people's factions (like Blood Elf to High Elf) for the sake of a special race, I say keep it to the basic playables. It gets annoying when people have to constantly say "Oh, by the way, I'm not really a ______. I'm just using the model in place of a ______." every time they RP with someone new.

Naming: Please, please, please keep this as strict as it is now. I don't want a bunch of anime characters running around, and I know a lot of people feel the same way. XD

[Harmonic]

Mounts.

Well, what does Rensin wish? MORE RESTRICTIONS?!

No. I want -less- restrictions. I have no clue when we became so anal about mounts, but I simply would like to see us not be so... crazy over mounts, or pets.

Part of the fun about having cross faction, is being able to use mounts in versitility.

Pros: We could finally start using mounts, like humans on wolves, and everyone riding around dragons in Northrend. However, some restrictions would apply, such as the Ghostly nightsaber, and a lot of the undead mounts, unless you had GOOD reasoning. I think we should at least have a system that allows people unique mounts. Like, I'd have loved to have had a black wolf for Rensin again.


Cons: People abusing it. Obviously, player X sees player Y, and thinks "OH MAN, ITS OKAY FOR ME TO RIDE A FLAMING DONKEY", when player Y has writting reasoning behind it.

However, I think people can handle that. From what I've observed, people generally work with us on the rules, heh.