On respect.

[Raven776]

This may not be the best place to put this, but I am not used to using the forums.
I usually don't have problems with anyone, let alone admins, but it is either I get this off of my chest now or I do it continuously over my stay on the server. No names will be mentioned, and no foul language will be used. This is nothing but my opinion, and the way I see things. I have been here a long time, and only stuck my neck out when I saw something absolutely necessary to do so with.

This server is never "can't." There is nothing but the most outlandish and silly things that are completely banned. I have seen characters being a DK using a rune shovel, and Draenei brewmasters. I have seen mechanical arms and legs, and magical sight. For the most part these are received as well as any regular drunken orc or gnomish engineer.

It is when people say "You can't do this" on the small things that bothers me. I saw a gnome riding another race's mount in WSG, and another grunt was quick to jump on her. Simply telling them they can not do that. He never asked her whether she had reason, never lead into it at all.
Odd circumstances come up in RP -and- real life. There is no way you simply are -unable- to have something done unless it is a pink dragon mount. You simply have to have a reason, and if it is something rather outlandish, make a post on the forums for it.

That set aside, for that moment was an isolated event of what I would like to believe is a moment of ignorance.

Moving onto a larger thread of rather disrespectful behavior. This time I would like to state that they were admins, not mentioning names.
Admins are people to. They make mistakes when approving things, but they seem to believe when they stop something from happening they are infallible. Earlier this year I was confronted with a friend in need. She had an odd pet, a crab. The size was only as large as any tiger, which I can prove with screenshots if necessary. In the middle of roleplay an admin was so bold as to shrink the pet down to a miniscule size and then threaten the owner. A bit of yelling out of hand in general ended with me asking to talk privately, cooling myself down. I was refused.
Never-the-less I was still rather angry and huffed up over this situation. A crab is not a superpower. I see trolls hauling around scorpions, and the arguement against the crab was it was a "large and dangerous" animal. Not getting into the arguement for the pet, for that was already cleared up, I set a forum post. Posts went back and forth, defending and attacking the idea of an odd pet. Within a moment their stance changed. When a higher GM entered the arguement they simply said that my friend must have always "posted on the forums" about how she got her pet, which is something I have never, ever heard of having to do.

I thought this was simply another isolated incident. When the meet and greet came about a month ago I was shocked by the behavior.

The same admins mentioned her again. This time it was for her being an engineer. It was not one or two random mentions, but snarky comments by the GMs -and- the audience. All of which was advocated and started by an admin. This girl I may add was not there to defend herself. I do not have screenshots of this event, but Kretol was there. I do not know whether anyone cares, or remembers, over this one person. I would like to take a lesson from one of our favorite GMs on her latest post. Treat others with respect. If their RP isn't up to your standards, deal with it.

Respect is universal. Everyone is simply a man or woman sitting behind a computer. Newbies and old players alike, defend yourself until you are absolutely sure what you are doing does not make sense. GMs do make mistakes, we all do.

I have had my say, no names were mentioned and no one was called a bad mother. I even refrained from giving horribly obvious hints this time.

Ban me if that's what you think should happen, because I have seen it happen for less.

[Grakor456]

As a rule, I do not ban people for voicing their opinion, so long as it's voiced in a calm, civil manner. I welcome criticism directed towards myself and to anyone else on the GM team. In fact, I would love it if people would be more vocal when they have a problem with someone on the staff. There is little I can do when no one complains and no one explains what they're talking about.

Now, this might seem quibbling over semantics, I would first ask that you be more clear when it comes to the use of the word "admin". Admin means myself or Kretol. The other staff members are GMs. It gets confusing when the two are used interchangeably.

Can't is a strong word, but it is a useful one. There are some things we simply don't allow, for reasons of either realism, balance, or to preserve the sanity of everyone else involved. There are probably times when "can't" is used when it shouldn't, but that is often a matter of miscommunication.

As for the crab incident, I have no memory of this, so likely this occurred during one of my absences. I can't really comment on this, but so long as the pet was not gigantic in a bugged way, there should not have been an issue.

[Raven776]

Sorry, I come from a few games where there's no such thing as a GM and only a group of admins.

Well, as a rule of thumb if "can't" does not apply to everyone, it should not apply to anyone with their proper explanation.

The crab incident can be explained partially through the thread "Why can't hunters have strange pets." I was very ill tempered at the time, but I believe I made enough sense.

Voicing your opinion can be seen by some to be in violation of rules one , four, and seven. Sorry to say it, but it's true.

[Kaghuros]

When I was a GM I saw a lot of people talking about what mounts to use and whatnot, but I don't believe I was there for anyone doing something like that with a crab... What race was the person with this large crab? I mean, was there some reason they could have assumed it didn't belong? Race or size or something. There's no reason to believe that both sides didn't have an exceptionally good reason to assume what they did.


Also some useless tangent here, but I think magical sight for a normal blind person and a rune shovel are sometimes "can't"s in lore. Maybe it's semantics, I guess, since Rune Weapons must be "bladed" and a shovel's end is called a blade... *muses*

Edit: Oh I remember that thread. I need to read it again and see what it was about.

[Raven776]

Well, I've heard the rune shovel was a GM's alt character's thing. Kinda amusing if you ask me.
Magical sight was usually just the forsaken who had their eyes gauged out. I think their sight is magical to begin with.

The crab? Night elf character. That sets off a few warning bells, but when you take into account that the character is obviously acting with a bucket a few drops shy of full, or overflowing, while still remaining competent a crab is NOT a horrible pet to have. Who else would empathize with a giant, disgusting creature other than a night elf huntress? Giant is really not as big as it sounds.

It's not that something was assumed, it's that a decision was made right out to yell at the individual, and then threaten her for doing it again when in the END the decision was to have her post how she got it. She did, by the way, post. I don't know if that post ever gained any attention, positive or negative.

It is just that when a GM sees something wrong with a GM's decision, they are quick to say that GMs do make a mistake. They do, we all do. When we see something wrong with a GMs decision, it must be accepted without question. This is not always how it should be, but words of those nature can be found in the rules.

My only fear is that our perfectly acceptable human emotions get in the way of each other. Feelings are hurt, and we know that very well. GMs get the worst of it all, but sometimes that hurt is reflected back into the players.

A few peoples calling names and making mistakes gains all of us a punishment. Whether it is a new rule, or simply a normal reaction some people have, lashing out.

I seem to digress a more and more as the hour grows later (or earlier, depending on where you are) so I should cut this post short by ending with a recap of the origional question being answered.

Both sides had a good reason for doing what they did, but the side that had the power to end it all decided not to listen to the others due to their personal feelings towards the other.

[Cressy]

Since you have brought it up...The first two incidients, her crab and her engineer are quite the top of the issues. Neither time did you mention that said GM made her small because of the fact that he felt that a crab of that size was strange, that he ended up apologizing or that we said, "If the pet is that special you should post it on the forums." Nor did you mention the fact that my irritation was that this character broke every elven stereotype and that in her rp, which I witnessed myself, she used bombs to hurt nature and not help it like she said it would. My issue was the fact that people continued to defend her and refused to understand why I had an issue with the character.

But, in this case...I sort of understand. Are the creatures native to the area? Would they have the funds for the upkeep? People never think of it. Never. This server is based around lore and what works, but people never think passed the, "Hurpa durpa, I luv 2 haef lion n the if but I nevur go way from hurr."

Sidenpte: I would prefer if you didn't mention the comments about being a bad mother. They were said by not one, but two previously close friends. I don't feel that you needed to use that to prove your point, and please do not mention it again.

[Anski]

When it boils down to it, being a GM isn't a communal acceptance of what is right or wrong. Like being a police officer, or a doctor, one must assume in this position what is right and wrong for the situation at the time. I have no gravitation on the situation, I wasn't paying attention when it happened. Different GMs may give different answers when asked a variable question like whether someone can do something such as use the spells they have in game. Some swear by that you must use discretion on what would be realistic or not, and I know Grakor has always stood by the fact that you can use whatever you're given ICly as long as you use it responsibly.

This applies to situational presentation as well. When faced with an 'incident' of sorts, it is our duty to try and fairly judge what is right and what is wrong. If a GM is decreed to have judged wrongly, whether they are just mediating a problem or actually taking a wrong action, bringing it up tends to cause the multilateral shift of thought from us to thinking what was once seen as wrong is now acceptable. We are beings of change, our staff collective, and we must bend to reason that the players procure to us. If one was to just start screaming how awful we are for doing something to them, it would be less likely to be formally looked at and thought of, compared to what you have done by being reasonable and expressing your opinion. Whether the GM in question did something 'wrong' is in itself up to questioning, the eye of the beholder type adjustment. I'm not going to argue either side because I don't know both sides, I just wanted to point out that when it comes to fight or flight type reaction, each GM handles it differently, in what we hope is a fair way.

[Kaghuros]

I think a good thing to remind everyone of is that respect is a two-way street. Both parties could have handled it better, and both were disrespectful. In the end, the player whose character it was apologized and acknowledged that the pet was one of a number of larger animals that was bugged to not shrink to the appropriate size, as Kretol noticed and mentioned. They demonstrated respect for each other and resolved a dispute which was based on faulty game mechanics and a newness to roleplaying, regardless of the argument that was going on around them. Perhaps we can all learn a valuable lesson.

[Jason]

I was addressing my own case of Kaldorei anti-thesis myself, being a night elf trying to hire a forsaken to do a job whilst wearing engineer goggles and...such. I was being polite about it myself, but I can't say the same thing for the the others involved, who seemed rather bent on saying I was completely wrong and to stop being a nitpick. Regardless, I think this post was redundant and could have done with some rethinking, as it clearly backfired. In fact, it may have been best if this were a PM to one of the admins, and not a public issue.

[Raven776]

I am sorry about the mother comment. I don't quite remember saying that but I suppose it slipped out somewhere. I do try not to give any hints as to who I'm talking about.

One question. Did you ask her how she had upkeep on it before threatening her over the pet? Did you even look at any regular hunter's pet before shrinking it? Most full sized tigers are as long, if not longer, but just not as wide.

Breaking stereotypes is only bad when the character in question claims to be normal. No one ever said she was normal. She's not an elf who talks about the greatness of elves and their heritage while also blowing stuff up.

The bomb incidents? Retconned as far as I have heard. Seeing as it did not involve anyone other than herself and her own character personality I assume she is allowed to do that. I can't imagine you being too angry over it either.

I somehow doubt you have not noticed that this person in question lives next to the ocean, which almost blows most of your "How do you feed it/house it" problems out of the water, pun not intended.

Lastly, I may not know everything that happened, and assuming is something I almost never do, but judging by her reaction (Because yes, I do know when someone I spend a lot of time with is upset) you did not give too much warning over this crab, let alone ask her any of these questions before you knew someone else was going to come up to the defend her. Perhaps I broke the rule over that, which reads out to me as "Sit by and watch someone else get yelled at while you have a hundred reasons they shouldn't stirring in your head" but seeing as in the -end- your choice was changed into creating a post, which was never mentioned before hand, proves a lot about all of us just being human. That is something to think about before you make a decision, not after you make a mistake.

Her retcon was mentioned in her profile before someone asked her to take the OOC out of it.

Furthermore your attack on her during the meet and greet was horrendous. Talking about her while she was not there to defend herself was disgusting and wrong. I can only imagine the player behind Shanoa (Because yes, I have seen her) being kicked in the teeth by you at that moment.

I have never, ever had a problem with a GM in my life. What you did was immature and wrong. You can deny it as much as you want, because I do not have screenshots. Maybe you do this bad thing enough where it is no longer a bad thing in your mind, but in the end I hope you realize what you did to her was as bad as anyone bad talking you. You're both just people.

As I said before, you can deny what I saw all you want. I'm not looking to land you in trouble. I only hope, possibly pray, that you realize what you have been doing to this poor girl who has done nothing to you other than "offend you with her roleplay that did not meet your standards." Respect, Cressy. You said it yourself.

[Cressy]

I am going to not bother anymore. I am done with this topic and this server for now. Later.