Keeping or Ditching the Prestige System

[SpiralLateralus]

Put this to a vote.

[Xigo]

Put this to a vote.

Please do not. This should be the GM's decision.

[Grakor456]

This is one of the most appealing ways of putting in both systems.

This, however, defeats half the purpose of the "Elite" "system," which was to make the overall system both more free-form and less complicated. Adding even more layers of complexity is something I can safely say that we won't be doing.

[Drust]

In my opinion some people are looking at prestige the wrong way, it shouldn't be used to make a character more powerful, but to enhance RP for others, the reason someone would choose a certain prestige would be to experience a different type of RP. Not to be stronger then others.

Just my opinion though. :|

[Psychyn]

I've admittedly never looked at the "old" prestige system, or researched of whatever it may have been included.. But!

I'm personally of the opinion that titles/so called prestiges should depend on what the prestige actually is. I can imagine some prestiges more common then others, while others only have a handful of people who know it in the world.

A thing I remember from creating Saraya, was that I couldn't simply name her profession (read: "class") to be an Assassin, which she has trained long enough for and actually is, and had to stick with Rogue because people would mistake her for the prestige Assassin.. which is somewhat silly now that I look back. I can't imagine that being an Assassin requires so much work involved, as you basically sneak up and assassinate someone, which is something anyone could do. The methods may vary, but all it comes down to is taking out the target and get paid for it.

So.. I like the idea of having categories of "Prestiges", some which you can pick right up and use while others require some bit more explanation. However, looking at the art of creativity and using your imagination.. I don't think we should stick too closely to pre-writting rules, but instead be creative with the lore and fill in the gaps ourselves. I for one have 0 knowledge of D20, and don't get why it seemingly is an current form of requirement to get something within World of Warcraft. ;3

I can imagine that we need to work with the GMs for prestiges, but I don't think we should really use any pre-written rules unless their defined by Azeroth lore or something. Looking at the Assassin prestige, Saraya would qualify perfectly for it but currently can't call herself one due to it being an prestige.

Assassins are employed by many races and factions in Azeroth, including Ravenholdt, Galak clan centaurs, undead, Wastewander nomads, etc.[1]

Even more skilled in the art of death, assassins are those few who have gone on to perfect the arts of murder to an incredibly fine degree. So deadly are the cold-hearted killers that they are beyond the ideas of allegiance and devotion to anything more than the next challenging kill.

Assassins come from any races and most are independent. They kill people for no other reason than to gain profit through contract killings

Scource: WoWwiki: Assassin

That's the best example I could give out of my own perspective, forgive me of my opinion is poorly supported, but I figured I would add it in regardless.

[McKnighter]

Honestly I think a more 'free form' would be interesting.. But as expressed before there has to be some kind of limits to power, or even some kind of limits to what classes can develop from a free form policy. I'm sure most don't care so much about having power greater than other players. They want to be able to be a certain class, have a certain title, or use certain spells. For example, I'm sure someone who wants to play a Necromancer simply wants to build a character who uses necromancy because they find it interesting. Not have an epic army of undead that no other players can beat. A more relaxed system for players who want to delve down the path of simply roleplaying a class should be available.

Huh, wonder who wanted to do this. :3


Anyways, voting would offer a more stat based opinion on the server overall, I wouldn't see the harm in giving more numbers for the GM's so they can get the system up in running faster.

[Bovel]

When I first came to CotH I strongly disliked the current system. I am a troll to the soul and wanted so bad to just keep going being a witch doctor. But after almost a year on the server I have come to like it more and more cause the limitation is needed. I have seen so much things done in-game on this servers that to my (rather harsh) eyes have been nothing but a violation against the world we are offered by Blizzard.

The BEST part about it is that it limits those prone to abuse of power, both physical, mental or political. It does not catch em all cause you can just rename stuff or whatever. But I still think it would be a lot worse without it.

The WORST part is us as a group revere prestiges way too much, overrate it just cause it is a term set into the rules. Someones demon hunter will automatically be so much more revered and what not compared to my merc gone demonkiller that I have played for a year and written tons and tons in forums and stories about and made pics and so on. The idea with 'prestige' in my book means that someones work with their character and it's life story should add reputation, power and influence backed by GMs.

[ThePharaoh]

Kind of confused in all honesty. I wouldn't roll a prestige class for the sake of a deeper story. I mean it goes without saying it's going to happen, but to me having a prestige class comes with prestigious abilities. And there are a lot of people who will ignore stuff anyway. I waited too long for Jidaeo's special profile to be approved only to see many other chars claim they have a noble house with no profile in place. Granted they can have all the fun they want but wont be able to get their char leveled but... I dunno. Systems will be exploited is my point and Grakor said it himself.

What -I- like about the prestige classes is obviously the combat features, and the add skill. Like giving a rogue the demon transformation to visually display his awesome power. That is how you really add a needed oomph to RP. I only try to learn the skills with visual effects. I don't know how hard or time consuming that is, or if Kretol is the only one who could do it. But could we apply for abilities we wish our char to have and a reason why they would have it. Like I saw we could have the option to "Roll a powerful death knight" but people can emote their dk's powerful right now. Liek giving a dk some ice powers or something from the mage class. Or giving chars raise ghoul and army of the dead if they're necro's

I think the best system if there had to be a structured way to do it would be the prestige tiers. Only the higher end prestiges would require GM attention. Overall I agree with Anski, I don't care -what- we do but could we do something soon because... This is holding up a lot of time. One cant begin to start an application for a system or class he/she isn't sure is assessable or necessary.

And shiny powers, and elite-ism aside. I'd like to have just -one- prestige. I've been here long enough where I think I could do it respectfully, albeit a little flashy. But I wouldn't go overboard and the system the way it was just makes it more work than it's worth to obtain some of these classes. I hope the ideas in this thread truly get the ball rolling for a good system. Because even though we have to do these things to keep stuff in balance and order. We...are here to have fun right? Can we have some fun please?

[Aphetoros]

One thing that was curious to me was this: ICly a character changes. For example, there are character in lore who went from being an archmage to a necromancer (for example). This is a slightly different topic, but isn't it possible for one to change in the same way? The one thing I hate about a prestige is the feeling that he could be stuck, and even if further development comes that would remove the prestige and and set them on a different path...well then I don't know. It seems like it could cause problems for extremely dynamic characters.

[Uthaniel]

I agree with Free form. I think it'll give more freedom to portray or characters just with the right amount of power we want, instead of putting them into pre-defined specialization titles.

[Renae]

Just my opinion, I don't want to upset anyone =S

The problem for some people to RP with GM's to acquire their prestige class is time differences. For me, it would be extremely difficult as the majority of the players / GM's are online around midnight to 6am for me. The times where I'm mostly asleep.

[Nostra]

Since I am lazy I'll just copy what I just posted in the GM discussion. I'll try to give my opinion as clearly as I can! EDIT: Sadly I think that was doomed from the start, but I'm hoping some of what I tried to convey comes through. : /

I think that we focus too much on the idea of Power, Skill and Ability here. I rather see us implement a system that lets a character grow in ways that otherwise are limited to them. Take Witch Doctor for an example, they might have many abilities represented in-game already but they are also important figures besides those, they are cultural leaders and "wise-men" of a (often) darker sort among the Trolls. Having a character take on a prestige like this shouldn't be all about becomming better and stronger than other characters but let him grow into this role and let him take on more responsibility than before. I'm not going to say that we should remove ability and skills completely but I really feel that it shouldn't be the focus.

We could just let the titles be free and let people claim them as they want, some will probably do a good job of it while some will not, but that will allways be a problem. However I don't think doing this would really give us an advantage, if we have a system of gaining these titles and requiring some effort to earn them we give them meaning and importance. I'm in favour of letting players take on more heroic roles on the server but I rather not see it done by simply letting them earn Power, instead I'd like to see us give these prestiges meaning outside the spells and abilities they confer so that characters don't become important by way of having fulfilled X requirement for Y spell but instead through character development and plot progression having attained this importance.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble putting this into words that makes sense. I want a character to become important through his actions and sacrifices rather than what spells he possess.

So instead of giving people Power, we give them Importance/Influence?

Erh... I focus on importance since that seems to be what this is about, be it through an Elite or Prestige system we want to open up the possibilty for characters to become more important in the world, to take on the roles of heroes. Despite what I said I think either system could do this, both with relatively equal success but taking it in different directions and in the end it's just a matter of opinion which would be prefferable. I think both systems would be pretty much as simple once implemented but I personally prefer the Prestige system, obviously I am far from unbiased (but then, are any of us unbiased? lol).

Now, we could say that people can gain importance without Prestige titles, and it's true, but I think that we for so long have held to the policy of keeping characters common that without a system like this we won't see alot of people even trying. It also acts as a more tangible reward and give it more permamence for those that do try, giving them a goal to work towards. To return to my example of the Witch Doctor, any old troll could go gain the respect among his fellow players that a Witch Doctor holds, but once those players are gone (face it, most players vanish eventually... even if they all return... eventually ;-P) that troll will be back to null, pretty much. The player behind him will remember and the character will be the same but other characters will treat him as if he was nothing anyway, because there's nothing to affirm that he is a respectable troll. With a Prestige Title the player can, if nothing else, point to it and claim some measure of respect and importance even among new players. Kinda like old scars on a warrior, they show that yeah, this dood has seen a couple of fights and can probably handle himself, that was just a metaphor, I still don't think it should be all about fighting ability. We should also consider the Prestige Titles that aren't represented in game and how to implement them, if at all if we choose the Elite system.

Man do I ramble... I'll stop know when there's still a chance someone might comprehend this. I only have one more thing to say.

The prestige system is pretty much finished while we would have to spend even more time to discuss the Freeform/Elite System, we might argue that that shouldn't influence our decision but Anski and others have presented a valid opinion; This has gone on for way too long, something needs to be done.

[Grakor456]

So instead of giving people Power, we give them Importance/Influence?

The problem is, we can't do this. Importance and influence are in the hands of the players and characters, not ourselves. If a character is important or influential, he can become so without the need to have any "prestige title" or "elite status" to back that up. Now, yes, you address this, but I do not think that prestige titles are granting greater influence on the players that possess them just because they have them. My own observations on this are that, simply put, most players don't care until they cross paths. We can't give a character fame or influence unless the players agree to give it to him/her.

Prestige titles have almost always been about two things: giving combat ability, and giving lore-powers that primarily act as plot devices. The former more often than the latter, but that's the system's result in a nutshell. We can't change that. We can't make people go "This person is special. Respect him!" because that just doesn't work that way.

As a warning, the following is going to be a biased, opinionated rant. You've been warned.

The prestige system is horrible. It has always been horrible. It should never have been brought here, as it's a stupid idea and has no place in WoW. And this is coming from the person who initially introduced it to CotH. Just the idea is flawed as it isn't compatible with the WoW game. Prestige titles are a d20 concept, given only because they were also a D&D 3rd/3.5 edition concept. They don't work in WoW because the scale and power level between the two games are radically different. A d20 Shaman is much weaker and more limited than a WoW Shaman. A WoW Shaman is already a Spiritwalker, or a Witch Doctor, or a Spirit Champion. A WoW Warrior is already a Berserker or Blademaster. So on so forth. I suppose this goes back to the idea that World of Warcraft has always been about playing heroes.

This also brings me to the core problem with the prestige system, as a system. It's such a "square peg to round hole" situation due to the above, but it's also a big pain for everyone involved. We're taking text-based roleplay (visual aid or not) and putting in all of these complicated D20 concepts and ideas in there, requiring a five paragraph essay, and all of this, just for the right to call yourself what a basic unit was in Warcraft 3. I can't be the only one who thinks that's a mite bit silly.

That's why I want to see the prestige system gone. It's stupid. It's overcomplicated. It's limiting. It's just plain bad. No matter what we change, no matter how we try to fix it, it won't work because the core premise is flawed. That's why it's never worked before this point.

[Miah]

So people have now said, prestige system won't work, as its impossible to give someone a reputation through this, and only serves to add abilities, and just, isn't all that practical in a wow setting. Then...Why not do something that would fit in with wow. Maybe, say, Gm's create a new faction known as "general renown" or "General populace". If a character participates in a GM run event, or is involved in other such things, then said GM could raise the "Renown" of each of the characters a little. So if you see a character, a quick check would show you that, say, "This character has done a lot of influential things in the world!" Or "This character seems to be your average Joe" Not that it will matter to some people, but would be nice for people to earn actual prestige, rather than simply labelling them "prestige class." With enough "renown", a gm could grant a character an ability, or a boost, or a title, or other little things that give the character something unique. Renown could be like, experience is to in-game level, as activity within RP is to the amount of renown your character has. To me it has the benefits of, making those who want to become a kind of "prestige" within the world the chance to be that, without forcing it on people that "I am special, and you are not."

There is probably flaws in this idea, or its downright impossible, but if people believe that the prestige system wont work, I hope we can come up with an alternative

[Delta]

So people have now said, prestige system won't work, as its impossible to give someone a reputation through this, and only serves to add abilities, and just, isn't all that practical in a wow setting. Then...Why not do something that would fit in with wow. Maybe, say, Gm's create a new faction known as "general renown" or "General populace". If a character participates in a GM run event, or is involved in other such things, then said GM could raise the "Renown" of each of the characters a little. So if you see a character, a quick check would show you that, say, "This character has done a lot of influential things in the world!" Or "This character seems to be your average Joe" Not that it will matter to some people, but would be nice for people to earn actual prestige, rather than simply labelling them "prestige class." With enough "renown", a gm could grant a character an ability, or a boost, or a title, or other little things that give the character something unique. Renown could be like, experience is to in-game level, as activity within RP is to the amount of renown your character has. To me it has the benefits of, making those who want to become a kind of "prestige" within the world the chance to be that, without forcing it on people that "I am special, and you are not."

There is probably flaws in this idea, or its downright impossible, but if people believe that the prestige system wont work, I hope we can come up with an alternative

Aye, the first one being that many GMs are busy people, and DMing events is time consuming. The second one would be, attending those events says less about how prestigious a character is, and more about how their player's time schedule meshes well with the GMs who run events most frequently. If you see what I mean.
It's a good thought, and makes a little more sense than the old system, but I don't think it's practical.