A question on Living Death Knights

[muhaha8]

"Look at this, Varian, your most powerful Paladin sees my power, and willingly serves me in life. Say hi, Tirion."

/sagenod.

[Uthaniel]

Actually, taking the other lore figures that the Lich King took hold of, I think he'd likely not turn powerful figures into living death knights. Sylvannas, that orc guy's son whose name fails me (becomes a death knight in WotLK and is a boss. Help me here, people), Darion Mograine and so on, are all undead so the Lich King would be sure to never lose control over them - I realize the irony, but either way.

It perhaps could go both ways. But on retrospective, I'd think it'd work better as a means of crushing morale of the bulk forces by seeing living death knights amidsts the forces of Acherus instead directly attacking Tirion and whatnot. But on either way, my general opinion - as I don't believe I've ever stated it on this particular subject, is somewhat agreeing with you. I think the death knights that were tortured and become death knights against their will but remain alive would likely be people within positions of minor power, such as liutenants and whatnot, or simply people that gave the forces of the Lich King problem, such as members of the Argent/Scarlet Crusade/Dawn.

Last but not least, prisioners (The scourge does keep them, as shown by some quests) that perhaps survived torture for long enough could be turned into living death knights as a final form of subjugation, as a way to show that they've indeed no way to escape their grim fate.

Oh well. This is mostly an assumption game.

[flammos200]

Still, it leaves us with 300/+ mistakes. 3% of 10 000 is 300, and ten thousand are just the Death Knights of Acherus that took part in the Battle of Light's Hope Chapel.

Moving on, here's an interesting tidbit about Death Knight skin, and why it is pale.

"Alabaster Skin: The death knight's skin hardens and grows pale, resembling marble or alabaster. (His hair also develops streaks of white, and some death knights' hair goes completely white as they progress in power.) He gains a bonus to his natural armor."

That's not to say that it can stop swords, instead merely it's the reason in Lore for which we are given pale skin and hair color choices when creating Death Knights.

[kirilldun]

I think death knights should be based of off the original lore, they were created by Gul'dan to serve Doomhammer. So them being servants to the Lich King had no real connection until blizzard wanted to mess with the lore and make no sence. The lore of the death knights in WOTLK is just blizzard pumping out an expansion.

[Uthaniel]

First things first! You necro'd a two-months old thread. Bad, bad! /waggles finger

Second, death knights have generations. First, Second and Third. The ones serving Gul'dan were generation one, while the ones serving Arthas are generation three. They're completely different.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I was actually thinking about this walking home today.

Two things.

1) I don't necessarily think the Necromancers would make mistakes.

This series of attacks was a large effort by the Scourge, including many of their prominent members, including (but not limited to) Baron Rivendare, two of the Princes, Bloodbane, Noth and the Lich King himself. I would daresay that these Necromancers were picked out by some of the Lich King's most successful Overseers, if not the Lich King himself. This was no small deal, and the Lich King's been planning for the last 7 years. I don't think mistakes would happen.

2) How would the Lich King gloat over them being alive, if all their skin is covered and they don't talk?

Think about it. In both sets, all of the Death Knights skin is covered (Except Initiate's biceps) and in not one part of the quest chain do you die, except during the interrogation, and that guy dies anyways. How would he be able to gloat if they won't even be able to know the Death Knights were alive?

3) There weren't that many Death Knights made.

Flammos, at the last fight, it's 10,000 Scourge, not 10,000 Death Knights. Information gotten here.

[Uthaniel]

1) I don't necessarily think the Necromancers would make mistakes.

This series of attacks was a large effort by the Scourge, including many of their prominent members, including (but not limited to) Baron Rivendare, two of the Princes, Bloodbane, Noth and the Lich King himself. I would daresay that these Necromancers were picked out by some of the Lich King's most successful Overseers, if not the Lich King himself. This was no small deal, and the Lich King's been planning for the last 7 years. I don't think mistakes would happen.

Yes.

And the Lich King's plan was perfect, with no chance of failure in sight.

Until it failed. People make mistakes. The Lich King, the Overseers and the Necromancers themselves are people. Mistakes happen.

2) How would the Lich King gloat over them being alive, if all their skin is covered and they don't talk?

Think about it. In both sets, all of the Death Knights skin is covered (Except Initiate's biceps) and in not one part of the quest chain do you die, except during the interrogation, and that guy dies anyways. How would he be able to gloat if they won't even be able to know the Death Knights were alive?

In the same quest chain, you're told to kill a former companion of yours for the mere sadistic purpose of having them see you as a member of the Lich King's army, killing them. There's your gloating. Arthas wanted people to see and feel despair to kill them afterwards. He had no desire to spare anyone in the first place, unless it was for the purpose of torturing them further. (I.E, Sylvannas coming back as an undead.)

3) There weren't that many Death Knights made.

Flammos, at the last fight, it's 10,000 Scourge, not 10,000 Death Knights. Information gotten here.

From that page:

Highlord Darion Mograine (leader)
Koltira Deathweaver
Lady Alistra
Lord Thorval
Scourge Commander Thalanor
Thassarian
All player character death knights

This would mean there's the possibility of there being even -more- than 10,000 death knights. Since every single player character death knight counts.

[FlyingSquirrel]

1) I don't necessarily think the Necromancers would make mistakes.

This series of attacks was a large effort by the Scourge, including many of their prominent members, including (but not limited to) Baron Rivendare, two of the Princes, Bloodbane, Noth and the Lich King himself. I would daresay that these Necromancers were picked out by some of the Lich King's most successful Overseers, if not the Lich King himself. This was no small deal, and the Lich King's been planning for the last 7 years. I don't think mistakes would happen.

Yes.

And the Lich King's plan was perfect, with no chance of failure in sight.

Until it failed. People make mistakes. The Lich King, the Overseers and the Necromancers themselves are people. Mistakes happen.

Right. So, I went and checked on our wiki. There are 67 approved Death Knights on the wiki. I'd say about 100 total, 115 being generous. Add on the people in my link, and you have ~120. If someone practiced saying one speech for 7 years, and had to recite the speech, say, 40 times (Once again being generous) or draw a certain rune 40 times, under the same circumstances, I doubt they would mess up this bad and somehow keep the person alive.

Fel, let's be even more generous and say there are 100 NPC Death Knights. That's 220 Death Knights. Now, let's say that there are only 20 Necromancers. That's only 11 Death Knights per Necromancer. How often will someone make a mistake if they've been practicing for 7 years, and they only have to do it 11 times?

2) How would the Lich King gloat over them being alive, if all their skin is covered and they don't talk?

Think about it. In both sets, all of the Death Knights skin is covered (Except Initiate's biceps) and in not one part of the quest chain do you die, except during the interrogation, and that guy dies anyways. How would he be able to gloat if they won't even be able to know the Death Knights were alive?

In the same quest chain, you're told to kill a former companion of yours for the mere sadistic purpose of having them see you as a member of the Lich King's army, killing them. There's your gloating. Arthas wanted people to see and feel despair to kill them afterwards. He had no desire to spare anyone in the first place, unless it was for the purpose of torturing them further. (I.E, Sylvannas coming back as an undead.)

3) There weren't that many Death Knights made.

Flammos, at the last fight, it's 10,000 Scourge, not 10,000 Death Knights. Information gotten here.

[/quote]From that page:

Highlord Darion Mograine (leader)
Koltira Deathweaver
Lady Alistra
Lord Thorval
Scourge Commander Thalanor
Thassarian
All player character death knights

This would mean there's the possibility of there being even -more- than 10,000 death knights. Since every single player character death knight counts.[/quote]

See above. Let's say there's 115. This means there are 121. Add on the 100 NPC Death Knights, and you're at 221. I don't exactly think we'd count the amount of Death Knights on Retail, so that numbers still pretty small.

[Uthaniel]

When it says all player death knights, it's pretty clear that it's all player death knights. To me, that's pretty absolute.

Nonetheless, if you want to narrow it down to our numbers, that's a rather unfair comparison. We have way less players on CotH than the number the Lore was made for - Since it was made for Retail, not CotH. The number of death knight players on each realm on retail more likely than not far surpasses 10,000.

[FlyingSquirrel]

The number of death knight players on each realm on retail more likely than not far surpasses 10,000.

That's like saying the Lich King died because 10 people grouped up and said "les do eet". We follow Blizzard's Lore, but not -that- narrowly. We change the amount of numbers according to what we deem fit. I was just using your own logic against you in saying that it was those six people and the player Death Knights.

[Uthaniel]

...The Lich King died because the group of Tirion's "elite" grouped up and said that.
And if we're "adjusting numbers", then we're creating our own lore - which pretty much means we can decide to accept living death knights in themselves, without a necessary explanation besides whatever is deemed fit. That said, the mistake, torture, and so forth explanations are deemed fit, thus allowing death knights to be created.

[FlyingSquirrel]

...The Lich King died because the group of Tirion's "elite" grouped up and said that.
And if we're "adjusting numbers", then we're creating our own lore - which pretty much means we can decide to accept living death knights in themselves, without a necessary explanation besides whatever is deemed fit. That said, the mistake, torture, and so forth explanations are deemed fit, thus allowing death knights to be created.

So 10 of Tirion's Elite did it, if we're not adjusting letters? 10 people killed Syndragosa?

[Uthaniel]

I didn't put any numbers in there - You did.

I'm saying Tirion's elite, whichever number they may reach, were the ones to kill the Lich King. This was defined by the tourney at the Argent Crusade's grounds to decide the champions to fight in Icecrown.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I didn't put any numbers in there - You did.

I'm saying Tirion's elite, whichever number they may reach, were the ones to kill the Lich King. This was defined by the tourney at the Argent Crusade's grounds to decide the champions to fight in Icecrown.

Yes, but in-game (which is what I believe we're going off of), it's 10 or 25 at most. Unless, of course, you want to change numbers and begin to make our own lore.

[Uthaniel]

The elite 25 to kill a single man? Yes, I find that quite possible.