A question on Living Death Knights

[FlyingSquirrel]

Let me just start off by saying I'm skeptical of Living Death Knights. Think of it. They're Living Death Knights. It's a paradox. Anyways. I was told that Living Death Knights are the Death Knights that gave themselves to the Lich King (I.E. Orbaz Bloodbane), whilst Dead Death Knights are the ones that were against the Lich King. Does it still go like this here, or some other way? Just curious, as I've been seeing a lot of approved Living Death Knight profiles that were anti-LK.

[Etmosril]

I'd prefer it if we didn't have them, but we're not going to be giving them up anytime soon. They're favorites with the playerbase.

And affiliations aside, we know that living Death Knights are possible. It's not too ridiculous to think that maybe a few non-LK supporters were Death Knight-ified while they were still alive. The supply would be limited though.

[BountyHunter]

I was going to say something. . .

. . . But Estmosril's avatar removed all sense from my brain.

[Xigo]

I'd personally love to remove all non-LK-loyal living DKs, but as stated, the playerbase loves them.

I suppose we'll just have to accept that there's a possibility that there's a process to make non-willing breathers into DKs without killing them.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'd prefer it if we didn't have them, but we're not going to be giving them up anytime soon. They're favorites with the playerbase.

And affiliations aside, we know that living Death Knights are possible.

I'd agree, they are favorites. Same as Demon Hunters, although that doesn't change my opinion about either. But where do we have lore for this? CotH is, or its reputation precedes it to be, a fairly lore-abiding server, so I would imagine that they'd have some lore for a Living Death Knight, and even if for that, one that was kept alive. I've seen it as if you were kept alive in the Scourge, you were loyal and were thus given your own brain function (Necromancers and Living Death Knights). Death was either a sign of your power (Ymirjar or Liches) or you were just a regular everyday ghoul who was against the LK, or, in the case of WotLK, a mass-manufactured Death Knight.

After all, in my opinion, I don't see why they'd even make Living Death Knights whilst manu-facturing. You'd have to feed them, they're weaker, they still have emotions (kinda). Why not just brainwash them and have one of the best soldiers WoW has ever seen?

[Xigo]

... That's my point whenever I see one of those profiles written.

Besides, how the heck does a 'living' DK survive that long? A single cut could be your downfall -- necromancy can't heal you!

[flammos200]

So, after rummaging through a number of resources as regards Lore, I've managed to conclude the following:

All Death Knights:
-Need to kill to continue their existence.
-Do not die of hunger.
-Do not die of thirst.
-Do not really have a working digestive system. Where the food goes is your choice, but you won't see a Death Knight stopping for a potty break. It works much like Forsaken Cannibalism.
-Are treated as undead when in contact with the Light and Shadow/Necromancy. How you handle the Light - either by game mechanics(Healing) or by Lore (Hurting) as regards undead is your choice.
~Are generally held in biostasis. Thus, they are immortal, their cells not decaying with the passing of time. This also means that they don't rot. The only rot that can have occurred is during the time spent dead, between death and being raised.

Undead Death Knights:
-Do not feel hunger.
-Do not feel thirst.
-May or may not feel pain. Most don't.
-Do not die of bloodloss.
-Are literally unstoppable unless you hack off their heads.
-Do not have a pulse and are usually cold to the touch, like a corpse.
-Due to lack of bloodflow, and most of the time due to rot, they are unable to reproduce.
-Are able to remember and exhibit the emotions they have felt in life, provided that they have not lost their memories.
-Do not need to breathe and cannot die of suffocation or drowning.
-May or may not have intact senses of smell, sight, taste or hearing. Most don't have smell and taste.

'Undead Death Knights: As described in the death knight description, some death knights are undead. Undead death knights have traits similar to Forsaken.'

Undying:

-Feel hunger, but cannot die of starvation.
-Feel thirst, but cannot die of dehydration.
-May or may not feel pain. Most do.
-Can die of bloodloss.
-Can become temporarily undead via Lichborne, but it can't be done for too long, or they die.
-Have a pulse and are usually warm.
-Due to bloodflow, they are able to copulate. However, due to the unholy energies coursing through their bodies, the offspring most likely end up stillborn or... worse.
-Exhibit all the emotions of a normal person. Keep in mind, however, that having become a Death Knight warps your emotional spectrum. They will not be a huggly bunch, most likely.
-Need to breathe, and may die of suffocation or drowning.
-May or may not have intact senses of smell, sight, hearing and taste. Most do.

'Undying: The death knight becomes immune to all death spells and magical death effects. In addition, he is treated as an undead creature for the purposes of spells and special abilities.'
-----------------------------------------

There you have it. Answers to everything. Even to 'But Living DKs can't be healed by Necromancy'. They are Undying. Treated as undead. Therefore, they can. And they react to Light just like Forsaken react to Light.

As for the Death Knights of Acherus - They were Mass-Produced. The Lich King and his servants really didn't care what pile of corpses they would toss at the Scarlets. They were, after all, meant to die as they brought Tirion from hiding. That is why slip-ups occured and we have Living DKs. There were 10 000 Death Knights in Acherus. Some of those were mistakes.

[Xigo]

Thank you for that, flammos!

EDIT: While I do love flammos' post, I would ask people to refer to them as guidelines, not the GM team's verdict. 'Kay? Thanks!

[FlyingSquirrel]

How would they have a slip-up, though? Necromantic Energies kill Living People, and thus they would kill the Death Knight as they're being attempted to be risen.

[Xigo]

Quite simply because they're rushing to pump Death Knights out.

If one just -happens- to be alive after going through the process, eh, who cares so long as he/she fights for the King, right?

[flammos200]

Sure thing. I feel like I should've spoken earlier, just to clear up my view of things...

Bibliography and webliography include WoWWiki/Pedia, Dark Factions, and the Wc3 Manual, as well as our own CoTH guides on them.

Moreover, the Ritual that turns one into a Death Knight does not kill the person. It becomes unbearably painful, but they do not die. Moreover, from then on, they are Undying, and as such, post-Ritual, they are treated as undead and healed by Necromancy instead of harmed.

"Becoming a death knight does not, ironically enough, involve actually dying. Thus, most death knights resemble their living selves, though pale and with an unholy light that illumines their malefic eyes."

Xigo is correct. /nodnod.

[Uthaniel]

I'll likely be stoned and regret even pointing this out here, but in regards of living death knights that don't support the lich king, it's always good to point out Arthas was clearly sadic through WC3, and he showed pleasure into turning his enemies to his side - torturing them psychologically by making them serve him. He does that all the time, through cursing them as his undead servants.

It reflects from a warped view of his Paladin training. Afteralll, paladins believe that if you can make the enemy see your side and avoid bloodshed, you achieve the greatest victory - henceforth, what greatest victory is there than to curse an enemy to spend the eternity serving your every whim?

That said. It isn't too far-fetched to assume that in the Lich King's sadistic view, there would be a certain sense of accomplisment to know he turned a few of his former opponents into his servants without even having to turn them into undead to do it, simply to prove how superior he is, only to send them to their death afterwards.

That is, however, my opinion. Who knows.

[flammos200]

That's a delightful tidbit of Lore, Uthaniel.

We've seen the Lich King turn Sylvannas into his servant just to torture her. Who's to say other people can't have been turned into Death Knights out of similar degrees of spite?

Nice... Very nice. /scribbles down.

[muhaha8]

Remember, though, that even though the ritual doesn't include your death, doesn't mean it won't kill you. If you've been wounded on the battlefield (lost a limb, stabbed in the gut, whatever), and you're turned into a Death Knight while you're still alive, the unimaginable pain that sprouts from this transformation will likely cause your brain to shut down, and kill you anyway. Thus, a -VERY- small portion of Death Knights should be living. Approximately, IMO, about 1-3%. This doesn't include willingly-made DKs, or, as was stated, DKs who were turned while living to prove a point. I do believe, though, that those DKs Arthas forced into their DKship as an outlet for his sadistic behavior would most likely be lore-esque folks (Tirion Fordring, if he ever got his hands on him, for example).

My two bits.

[Uthaniel]

Not necessarly lore characters. Any paladin or member of the Silver Hand, Argent Dawn or Scarlet Crusade, would be a viable example. (Specially Argent dawn, in my opinion. Example below.)

"Look, Tirion. I've stolen your member and I've turned him to my cause. And guess what? He's not even undead. Harr harr harr."