Grakor's Rambling Rant on the Server

[Roxas65]

The whole think before you judge thing? It's completely true and as most people here know, I learned it the hardest way possible and I still apologize for that. It's a real ass move and it's best to think something through before saying it or learning it the hard way like I did.

As for the rest of the post, I don't think I should comment on, nor do I feel I have too. I agree and disagree on some points, but it's redundant to count them all up.

[Reese]

Just out of curiosity, since people need to get all the facts before forming an opinion (which, by the way, I whole-heartedly support) what's the stance on a request FOR the facts, since you would know them better than we, via PM or something.

Would you feel comfortable telling people when and why said bannee was warned and banned?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know who was involved and what were their claims?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know what the person had to say in his/her own defense, if they had anything to say?

Overall, can we see the whole story?

[Rigley]

Just out of curiosity, since people need to get all the facts before forming an opinion (which, by the way, I whole-heartedly support) what's the stance on a request FOR the facts, since you would know them better than we, via PM or something.

Would you feel comfortable telling people when and why said bannee was warned and banned?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know who was involved and what were their claims?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know what the person had to say in his/her own defense, if they had anything to say?

Overall, can we see the whole story?

At times I would say it is better not to let others see. It's honestly unfair to the banned player for us to show off stuff like that, and in some cases it can be especially detrimental to them.

So either we risk humiliate the banned player or leave everyone else partially informed.

Which... isn't a bad thing, really. Would you want your personal mistakes exposed to an entire community? I'm fairly certain the answer is a no, and it would be completely irresponsible of us to put out such information.


...At least, that's how I feel about it. I'm sure some people will say that they'd show anything, but I guarantee you if it's worth being banned over you might have a second thought on such a statement.

[Grakor456]

Closing down the Prestige system now would... in lack of better word... suck. The GM team and the Admins put work into it. People put work into their writing. It's been out for only a month (maybe less), closing it all of a sudden really isn't the best option. Some have just started. And I agree on most things, but hating the server? ... I don't feel safe anymore. With that statement, I doubt the server will last much longer. But that's just me and my silly conspiracy theories.

The server isn't mine to bring down. Kretol owns the box, he has possession of the plug.

However, my own personal feelings wouldn't cause CotH to shut down. I'd simply remove the elements that bother me before that happens.

[Xigo]

Just out of curiosity, since people need to get all the facts before forming an opinion (which, by the way, I whole-heartedly support) what's the stance on a request FOR the facts, since you would know them better than we, via PM or something.

Would you feel comfortable telling people when and why said bannee was warned and banned?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know who was involved and what were their claims?
Would you feel comfortable letting us know what the person had to say in his/her own defense, if they had anything to say?

Overall, can we see the whole story?

At times I would say it is better not to let others see. It's honestly unfair to the banned player for us to show off stuff like that, and in some cases it can be especially detrimental to them.

So either we risk humiliate the banned player or leave everyone else partially informed.

Which... isn't a bad thing, really. Would you want your personal mistakes exposed to an entire community? I'm fairly certain the answer is a no, and it would be completely irresponsible of us to put out such information.


...At least, that's how I feel about it. I'm sure some people will say that they'd show anything, but I guarantee you if it's worth being banned over you might have a second thought on such a statement.

It wouldn't only be embarrassing or detrimental to the banned individual in some cases. It would be embarrassing to others too.

We release what we need to release. Understand that what we don't release is out of respect to the players that would be harmed by such a release.

[Jurkey]

@Rigley: Personally, if I was banned, I would accept that I made a mistake and why would I care for a community I can't ever join again anyways? If I get permanently banned, people should know the reason(s) and how it was handled, instead of people just raising an eyebrow at it. I've seen several of my buddies here been banned, and I have only heard their story of it, because the information about it is somewhat secretive. Maybe the "banner" could provide some screenshots, etc. so us as the playerbase would know for a fact that they did something wrong.

[Uthaniel]

I somewhat agree with the releasing of information.

Maybe not exact details, but if you say someone was disrespectful, it'd be good to know -how-.

I myself am not a good master of the english tongue; If I read how exactly someone was disrespectful, I'd at least have a better idea of what not to say to problems.

In fact, it has happened before.

In Beltharean's case, for example, he was apparently disrespectful multiple times.

I don't doubt it can happen - He said something and someone got offended. That is in fact disrespect, and I believe just about anyone is capable of doing it.

At the same time, Beltharean was a friend that I - at least thought I - knew. Some people even better than me. Most of us, I believe, share a similar opinion that he wouldn't be unnecessarily rude (as an addendum, I have to say his reaction to the last events that lead to his banishment came as a surprise, at least to me.)

It'd be good to know what happened. At least the instances when the player broke the rules and a vague description, though I realize this is asking too much - After all, some have tens and tens of warning pages, as said before.

It's just my opinion, barely even a suggestion. Take it for what it is.

[Grakor456]

In Beltharean's case, for example, he was apparently disrespectful multiple times.

I don't doubt it happen - He said something and someone got offended. That is in fact disrespect, and I believe just about anyone is capable of doing it.

At the same time, Beltharean was a friend that I - at least thought I - knew. Some people even better than me. Most of us, I believe, share a similar opinion that he wouldn't be unnecessarily rude (as an addendum, I have to say his reaction to the last events that lead to his banishment came as a surprise, at least to me.)

It'd be good to know what happened. At least the instances when the player broke the rules and a vague description, though I realize this is asking too much - After all, some have tens and tens of warning pages, as said before.

It's just my opinion, barely even a suggestion. Take it for what it is.

To be fair to Beltharean, most of his misdeeds were far in the past. In fact, the final warning itself was issued over a year ago (though such things never completely disappear.)

My interpretation, and what enlightenment I could gain from the commentary of others, of the events that transpired was that Beltharean went into the thread looking for a fight and to intentionally provoke a banning, likely because he believed himself to be proving a point. What problem he had with me personally? I can't say. I had next to no contact with the man prior to this point, and I was confused by it as much as anyone else was.

That's pretty much the limit of what I can offer for the moment. Perhaps others find it enlightening.

[Jonoth]

Just a couple of thoughts on some of the issues presented:

1) Custom Content - I've always personally been a fan of custom content. From things like tattoos and visible bows and guns to custom areas, when done right they add a lot of depth, creativity and uniqueness to characters as well as the server. I've always felt that in a good RP environment, people can feel like they make a difference, on a small scale or a large one. Granted, major changes should be reviewed before being allowed (can't have everyone claiming they beat up Thrall or Illidan), but I still like the idea that what we do as a server (players and GMs included) matters and can't just get wiped away with the next patch. I also realize that it comes with other hard decisions dealing with changes to lore, and deciding whether to make changes that happen in the future (ie if Cata strikes in our "universe"), so I also understand the desire of the admins not to rule out going along with the main lore as well.

A long-winded way of saying I can go along with either option, but I like seeing both sides of the coin.

Also, I like prestiges. But I hate roll fighting. I've talked about it before, so if you want my stance just look up my posts with the keyword "roll".

2) Enforcement - It pays the cost to be the boss. Can't make everyone happy, won't always be right. I think Grakor's point is well made. Both sides can benefit from taking a breath (or stepping away from the computer for a few minutes) before getting into heated arguments. We'd lose less good people from both sides that way.

3) RP - It's out there (Horde RP included). I've had times where there was nothing too new or interesting happening, and times where I have so many characters involved in RP that when I log in I have a crisis of conscience trying to decide who I should RP with. The best way to get it is to avoid getting trapped in an RP circle. And have at least one character that can just pop in anywhere for any reason that you could RP a week straight or can avoid for a few months if other characters are getting their fair share.

[Uthaniel]

In Beltharean's case, for example, he was apparently disrespectful multiple times.

I don't doubt it happen - He said something and someone got offended. That is in fact disrespect, and I believe just about anyone is capable of doing it.

At the same time, Beltharean was a friend that I - at least thought I - knew. Some people even better than me. Most of us, I believe, share a similar opinion that he wouldn't be unnecessarily rude (as an addendum, I have to say his reaction to the last events that lead to his banishment came as a surprise, at least to me.)

It'd be good to know what happened. At least the instances when the player broke the rules and a vague description, though I realize this is asking too much - After all, some have tens and tens of warning pages, as said before.

It's just my opinion, barely even a suggestion. Take it for what it is.

To be fair to Beltharean, most of his misdeeds were far in the past. In fact, the final warning itself was issued over a year ago (though such things never completely disappear.)

My interpretation, and what enlightenment I could gain from the commentary of others, of the events that transpired was that Beltharean went into the thread looking for a fight and to intentionally provoke a banning, likely because he believed himself to be proving a point. What problem he had with me personally? I can't say. I had next to no contact with the man prior to this point, and I was confused by it as much as anyone else was.

That's pretty much the limit of what I can offer for the moment. Perhaps others find it enlightening.

If it was over an year ago, I hadn't even met him then - Somewhat answers a few doubts of mine.

Well, truth be told, I specified my opinion to be what it is because I see it as the "ideal" scenario. Frankly, I think there's going to be issues either should the full information be released, should partial information be released or no information be released at all. In the end, by not releasing anything, you're risking coming off as the bad guys, which is a noble gesture.

Nonetheless, it also seems to lead to the annoying scenario where particularly unpleasant situations arise and force the banishment to be explained.

I guess it's a system that works as it is; Let the players have the information if they come ask themselves, let that information be mentioned in private, and in general be kept in private. It'd let us have access to information and, perhaps, find "closure", while not necessarily exposing anyone (That is, assuming anyone does their part. If someone decides to expose someone with that information, the flawed is the person, not the whole).

...That one I guess, is more of a suggestion. Something to consider, maybe. Maybe not.

Nonetheless, I hope someone finds a way to help this situation in a manner that satisfies most, if not all. As I said before, I only agree somewhat with the release of information. But I also feel this entire thing has to change.

I mean, as it is, it feels like a banishment is some sort of death sentence. It really does. Every time someone gets banned, it's like they were some sort of political opponent murdered in a dictatorship, and the way people react, this might as well have been the case.

Maybe I'm wrong. I probably am wrong, but I honestly we all should remember that in the end, everything boils down to a discussion about a game. Beltharean was banned because of a game, and he overreacted over one. Things should honestly be way more light-hearted than they are right now.

Games are meant to be enjoyed. It starts being work when it's a chore.

If this is all a game, why can't we all just try to enjoy it instead of jumping at each other's throats over it?

And since I cannot pretend to be something I am not, I am at my heart, Uthaniel. Which means this post seriously can't be entirely serious.
So here's a video.
Of puppies.
And kittens.
And it's about friendship!
And it's silly.
Enjoy!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M[/youtube]

[Dragonbeard]

I didn't bother reading this entire thread because I'm on vacation, but I read the first few posts.

All I have to say is: I don't know you very well, Grakor. We've spoken twice on Vent, I think? But our conversations were very fun. I don't often get to have ridiculously nerdy conversations about lore.

I completely agree with everything you said. I don't feel like I need to go into detail, because it'd be redundant. Thank you for you post.

[Krent]

Spoiler:

A lot of people are going to like this post, give it thanks, go "YEAH GRAKOR YOU'RE TOTALLY RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING!", and give you much public love for this post.

Spoiler:

And then they're going to talk mad shit to you in party-chat, AIM, and any other sort of private media available to them. All while voiding every point you made and to further their own wishes. Trust me. They'll log right back onto their prestige-class blood elves, and spend their entire day in some crazy custom town. Despite showing their public support for this thread.

Spoiler:

Its the double-faced nature of people on this server, and RP in general. Could probably say the internet. If I wanted to be omgdeep, I could say human nature, but nah. That should be a topic for another time.

Spoiler:

But its the main reason why I'm not active here anymore.

Spoiler:

Everyone who's spent significant time here, and I do mean everyone (Including me), has at one point or another, made a giant post about their complaints and grievances with the server. Complaints about how things are going. About what people do. About how their favorite ice cream isn't the favorite flavor of the cool kids during the month. About how one gang stepped on another gang's Nikes. About how the GM's are dictators, that the players are stupid, and gosh darn it why doesn't someone do anything about it?!

Spoiler:

It never solves anything. I know this because I've done this very same thing before many times. People will chime in with their "HELL YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT ON!!" and then go right back to their own business. Its a cyclical dance that I've seen before. Unfortunately, its not limited to COTH. It happens everywhere. Believe me. I's done some wandering around them innernetz. Nature of the web, it is.

Spoiler:

Its all one giant high school lunch table drama and I really can't take it seriously anymore. That's why I'm a ghost. A phantom. A guy who just pops in and out every once in awhile to say "Haddoh" before I vanish off again. RP is really hard to facilitate, because you need other people to click with, and if you can't find anyone to click with, you're gonna be a sad, lonely panda. I feel your pain Grak, though not to a degree you do.

I won't pretend that I know exactly how you feel, but I can sorta sympathize. If you're not in with the cool kids...you're not in with the cool kids, and you're exiled to tavern RP. All the good deep serious stuff will only be available to the kids who are willing to make the character type that's 'in' right now. If your style ain't popular, you're not gonna have a dance partner at the prom. Insert another redundant youth metaphor here.

Spoiler:

Boy, aren't these spoiler tags getting annoying?

Spoiler:

That's not gonna stop me though :3

Spoiler:

On the topic of prestige's, yeah. I find them kinda silly and confusing. I loved the whole rune master shtig when it was something I could use for Rofu's little drug-redemption story. Now I'm finding it a giant pain in the ass. That's why I can't complete my bloody story. Its just too bewildering, looking up all that lore stuff and finding it a way to fit everything together. Plus, it doesn't really facilitate RP, and if it can't do that...what's the point of 'em? E-peen? Special sparkley badge? Blegh.

Spoiler:

I think the custom content is awesome and we need more of it. I disagree with you completely there. Blizzard doesn't know, or really care, about their own lore anymore, and its up to us 'supar hardkore nerdzz' to carry it on. I give mad respect for anything that's a labor of love and that's exactly what the custom cities and events are. A LOT of work and planning went into them, and they shine. The events could have been better, yes, but I don't think they're as bad as you say they were. Maybe its a matter of perspective. Yer a GM, I'm a player, we're gonna have different experiences with everything just 'cause of that fact. But to say we shouldn't try 'em...naw. I'd like to see more. My biggest complaint against COTH is that there are too few people willing to take the initiative with really big, grand-scaling ideas.

I know how horribly bad those things can go...but its better to try and fail than to never try at all. I say, anyway. I can imagine why someone on the GM side would hate it. After all, the people that plan it have to deal with the pains of having to set all that bullshit up. They get stuck with the busy, stressful work where as I, as a player, get to enjoy all the goodies. You only get to stress about planning the party. I get to eat all the ice cream cake. Not really fair, but damn. I love me some ice cream cake.

Ya dig?

Spoiler:

Enforcement...yeah, you're right. I've been here long enough to know that. Nothing really needs to be elaborated on. Like I said. Nature of the innernetz. Drama storms 'n craziness, though I regret I've been a part of it. My hands ain't clean. I've done it all, and you know it. Rumor monger. Drama spread. Ranty post. Shallow cybarz eRP. Grand exits. Flame wars. Make judgements without knowing the facts. Every. Single. Sin. That a RP'r can think of, I've done. Hell, I've carried on so many different social masks for many different situations, I forgot about the person laying underneath. That's my biggest problem. Maybe...that's the problem with everyone else? I dunnnnoooo.

Spoiler:

On the topic of your RP...ehh. Grak, I'll just say it. I don't really like you. Now granted, I don't hate you - and believe me there's a big difference. You've never done anything to me personally to get teh Krent Haet (and believe me, you'd have to do a lot), but your whole public persona rubs me the wrong way. The whole "I'm gonna enforce the rules and do what's right no matter what anyone says or thinks about me because IM NOT A HERO IM A DARK KNIGHT BATMAN!!!" attitude you exert makes me avoid you. I have a feeling you don't really like me either, due to us always being at the other side of the fence and having conflicting personalities. I'm full of hypocrisy and there was that whole spat with Corlmitz, so I'm 65% positive there's stuff about me you absolutely detest. But, at the same time, I'm sure you don't hate me, like how I don't hate you. We won't sit together at the lunch table, sure...but at the same time, I don't see any reason why we'd call each other out for an after-school fight in the playground.

Having said that, I can only type my previous paragraph knowing that...I don't actually know you. I've never really RP'd with you, I've never really talked to you. You could be the coolest guy in the entire world, someone who I could call a brother, and I'd never know it, because you have all that scary shit associated with your name, and public persona. You're Grakor. Not just a GM, but the GM. The guy who's willing to drop the ban-hammer on the most beloved member of the community and just not give a f**k. The guy who can only enjoy himself with super serious manly orc RP. The guy with so many strengths, weaknesses, pitfalls, and virtues that no one on the damn grape vine can keep up with.

Can't 'cha see why I, and any other dood, could just be a liiiiittttlllleeee bit intimidated by ya? You hafta. Just. Hafta.

And yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. It's not your fault entirely. It's unfair. The rep associated with power, I know that whole mess, I was friends with sooooooooooo many GM's in the past who did the whole "Hero -> villain" cycle. I keep seeing the same play unfold over and over again, I'm honestly terrified to ever put myself in any position worth significance. That's why I'm content with being "lolstoner" Krent, the light-hearted comic relief guy who does all sorts of trolly bullshit posts. The phantom.

So long as I don't form any significant connection with anyone, I don't have to worry about the danger of hurting anyone, or most importantly, myself. Aren't I cool?

Spoiler:

That spoiler tag was longer than the others. I'm doing this one just to break up the pace. Anyway, Grak, there is no easy answer to any of the problems that you're facing. I know because I've faced somewhat similiar problems myself. There is no way to make people like Horde RP over Alliance RP. There is no way to make people not want to have the shiney sparkley button of prestige over...not having the shiney sparkley button. There is no way to cattle RP in one direction or another.

Believe me, if I knew the answers to those question, everyone would be playing gnomes with depressed-but-funny-drug-addiction-problems.

But I'm afraid to tell you that threads like these will be in vain. Nothing can be done to break the endless waltz of drama. You and I have enough veteran COTH points to know that nothing really changes here. Rage against the machine all you want, but the gears will keep on turning. We see the same topics with the same personality types get made over and over and over and over again. At least that's the conclusion I've met after all this time. I'm hopelessly apathetic. Maybe a lot of people are too. Maybe the big problem is that everyone is hopelessly apathetic. I don't even know anymore. .

So in conclusion, STAY CHILLY, FREE WILLIES.

[Cressy]

Why did I read that entire thing Krent?

So many damn spoilers. /shakes fist

[CappnRob]

I agree with you Grak, somewhat, about custom content, in that we should rather work within the confines of our own classes to be our characters rather than worry over prestige things. That said, prestige titles aren't the end of the world, and I personally don't mind them much. The custom spells are cool, too, so eh. As for custom areas, I don't mind them either. Asholme is mostly well put together (the Winterspring hotel looks a bit out of place do and overall its kind of cluttered seeming compared to official zones), and it does provide a good meeting place for less savory characters, but I digress. Personally I'd like more custom clothing if anything, or de-instanced instances like Zul'Gurub, but I ultimately don't need custom areas at all. They're icing on the cake, that's all.

As for RP circles....

I loves my sillymoon RP. But I do want more "core Horde" RP, because its so easy to get good Alliance RP by comparison. I do wish people would expand their characters more, but ultimately I can't say I hate what the server is. I have my dislikes but it's a solid place. We just need more orc-troll-tauren bromance, clearly

[Dotsy]

If you're not in with the cool kids...you're not in with the cool kids, and you're exiled to tavern RP. All the good deep serious stuff will only be available to the kids who are willing to make the character type that's 'in' right now.

I bet a good amount of people (Me included) here can relate to that. Perhaps that is the problem you're having with RP, sadly. I'm sure there would be people willing to have random RP all the time, but it often leads to tavern RP, which isn't a favourite of everyone.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
As for the privacy of banned players, it would cause a bit of a rift if the details were released and if they were withheld. I can't really say much on that as a player, myself.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
As for the other issues, I'm sure good points have been made and I'd rather not beat those topics anymore, myself.