Grakor's Rambling Rant on the Server

[Rigley]

I've often longed for a little more clarity in banning. The current rules don't give much disclosure (if any). It protects a banned person's privacy, yes, - but then you have tens of people who are outraged by the ban because they think their buddy was treated unfairly. Anyone here can put themselves in those shoes: what would you think if a friend of yours was banned, and the people who made the decision gave out no information about why?

You'd probably end up resenting the GMs who did it, right? Especially if you thought bannee was a really nice person. Be honest.

So by the time the process is over, you have one banned person who's glad you've kept their information private. Maybe. That's great, except you're not playing with that person anymore. They've ceased to be a part of the community, so you won't reap the benefits of treating them nicely.

On the other hand, the people who haven't been banned now actively dislike you. And they're the ones who are still around.

You can see how this thing is a breeding ground for resentment and further bans.

So whether to share information or not? It comes down to which is better: favoring the banned person, or favoring the remaining players. And you should favor the players - it reduces further problems, and gives a very strong disincentive for people to get themselves banned in the first place. If it makes their former friends hate them, tough. At least they're not hating the GMs.


My two cents.

I just dislike kicking someone while they're down. They're banned already, do they really need us to make things worse for them? People can appeal bans, and if someone got back in do you think they'd be happy with people knowing all of the stuff they did in the past?

I just don't think it's fair. I'd rather one person retain their dignity than appease the rumor mongering people hounding after them. At the end of the day drama is drama, and the people who will act rashly will continue to do so regardless of anything that should implore them to do otherwise.

... /shrug.

[Cressy]

Spoiler:

I've often longed for a little more clarity in banning. The current rules don't give much disclosure (if any). It protects a banned person's privacy, yes, - but then you have tens of people who are outraged by the ban because they think their buddy was treated unfairly. Anyone here can put themselves in those shoes: what would you think if a friend of yours was banned, and the people who made the decision gave out no information about why?

You'd probably end up resenting the GMs who did it, right? Especially if you thought bannee was a really nice person. Be honest.

So by the time the process is over, you have one banned person who's glad you've kept their information private. Maybe. That's great, except you're not playing with that person anymore. They've ceased to be a part of the community, so you won't reap the benefits of treating them nicely.

On the other hand, the people who haven't been banned now actively dislike you. And they're the ones who are still around.

You can see how this thing is a breeding ground for resentment and further bans.

So whether to share information or not? It comes down to which is better: favoring the banned person, or favoring the remaining players. And you should favor the players - it reduces further problems, and gives a very strong disincentive for people to get themselves banned in the first place. If it makes their former friends hate them, tough. At least they're not hating the GMs.


My two cents.

Coming from someone who has banned more people than probably the entire current staff...I will say this.

Almost everyone I banned were multiply offenses. Many of the times they were screenshots of personal situations. Would I really want to know that my friends repeatedly called someone a c**t or thought about joking about raping someone is funny? Uh, no. I would rather live my life not knowing that side to a person.

I mean, f**k. Do you know how many people have ragequit and said awful things because I banned their friends? Hell, do you know how many haven't rage quit and STILL TO THIS DAY HATE ME? It is ridiculous. But you know what? It is the internet, who gives a flying f**k? Hate me if you want because I did what I was asked to do. Which, just going to say this guys and maybe ruin the image of your favorite staff members, not one GM could ban someone. It is a collect agreement of 'yes, this guy needs a ban'. Shit, I know plenty of times where the admins were the ones telling you to ban people. Yet, at the end of the day your name is the one on the email/ban list/forum message, so you are the one attacked.

Anyways...Back on back I was talking about. Putting a generic reason for why people are banned is the best. I look at a website to make sure I have no sex offenders in the area, and if I find one I don't want to know the detailed descriptions of what they did to get on there. I just want to know, so I can keep a heads up. Ya dig. Wait, maybe that isn't the best way to explain it...Either way, it isn't about you guys, it is about the player who was banned.

That is the sentence I should have posted at the beginning.

"It is not about the friend's of the bannee knowing what they did, it is the bannee knowing what they did."

If they want to tell their friends, then go for it. But until then, just look to the rules that they broke and get the idea.

Anyways. Rambling off.

Grakor, let's RP more. I need to get my damn Orc in the Ashrunes.

[Scout]

On the topic of custom content, namely custom areas...

A lot of people have expressed their dislike for custom content on the grounds that it's popular for a short burst, and then interest peters off and people go back to their old RP. I think that this is a legitimate concern, but I also think that there's a definite way to get around it and fix it.

The problem with our custom zones that we make is that we tend to make zones, and then nothing ends up happening with them. Citing Mimiron's Anchorage, it was pretty much like the zone was made, and then people had no interest in going there because there was nothing happening there to incite their interest. A lot of custom zones see less use because nobody sees any point in going there; sure, it's a cool place to go, but people don't often think about places unless there's some sort of activity there.

This leads me to another problem which has been eating at me for a long time. The world on our server isn't all that dynamic. A character's actions, in the long run, don't seem to mean anything. The world never changes as a consequence of anything that happens; mostly, it's just static, and any changes that do occur are either temporary or fairly minor.

I loved the days when conquest RP was still allowed, simply because it kept a very real level of change in the world. Conquest RP can go several ways, too. It doesn't have to lead to reclamation of a zone. It would be awesome to see NPC groups rising up and taking over towns or zones, inciting a need for the player characters to move against them and reclaim those places. Sadly, this sort of RP has been prohibited for a while now—more than a year, I think.

I'd love it if both GMs and players would do more interesting RP that actually caused some sort of change to surface in the world, whether it was a big or small change. I would personally love to run an event like this; however, I feel like I can't, due to the limitations on conquest RP and changing the world.

It's boring to live in a world that you can't change. That's why I wish our server was more dynamic.

[Krilari]

I'm just going to ask something here, and I apologize if it sounds so, but I mean not to be rude.

Why complain about this..?

We have an awesome server with an equally awesome community. Yes, we have a few bells and whistles. But we have something that hundreds of people yearn for.

Perhaps we need to be more thankful for what we have.

Or perhaps I'm crazy.

One way or another, back to vacation!

<3 Ya coth.

[Rosencrat]

I'm just going to ask something here, and I apologize if it sounds so, but I mean not to be rude.

Why complain about this..?

We have an awesome server with an equally awesome community. Yes, we have a few bells and whistles. But we have something that hundreds of people yearn for.

Perhaps we need to be more thankful for what we have.

Or perhaps I'm crazy.

One way or another, back to vacation!

<3 Ya coth.

Damnit Kril stop stealing my sentiments!

[Grakor456]

It's boring to live in a world that you can't change. That's why I wish our server was more dynamic.

It's this viewpoint, right here, that I cannot fathom or understand. It's so alien to me that I simply cannot comprehend why anyone thinks this way.

Some of my fondest RP was on, funnily enough, retail, where we could change precisely nothing. The rest of my fondest RP is here on the server, simply with interactions, doing events, and the like. I've never looked at a place and gone "I wish my character's actions would change this city!" because I've never had that urge. There's plenty to do without things like conquest, and frankly most conquest goes outside of the scope or power level that most players are at.

[Spiralin]

Custom Content:

This was pretty much the most interesting to me. So I think I'll respond for the time being...

Custom Content won't always be used, no matter how much work was put into it. People get bored with something eventually, and will move on. Imagine the work put into Desolace. Much more then the custom content that was created by GMs. Who roleplays there regularly? Or, what about Swamp of Sorrows? Northrend? Northrend's an entire continent of work put into it and people are rarely seen there other than Dalaran.

In my personal opinion, I think 'custom' areas shouldn't even be made. But different areas enhanced. WoW has already provided so much. Why not use it's already made area? Instead of having to do all this for a custom place, why not use all this time to do custom events?

And a creative idea! People tend to roleplay in areas that are most easily accessed via portals, correct? Usually that is, there's always those that will venture farther for it.

Well, why not every month or so, change the areas you're able to teleport to? Instead of having every goblin city open, and only major cities/Razor Hill/Goldshire.

Maybe every month, only give -one- goblin city, the ability to be teleported to(Or even the tuskarr camps too). And put random spots in for Alliance/Horde. I noticed for Horde, you -can- port to Barrens/Durotar. That could easily be changed to a camp in Northrend, Desolace, and Eastern Plaguelands. For Alliance, maybe Felwood, Un'goro, Eastern Plaguelands. I said Eastern Plaguelands twice, because that would give people the option, to meet cross-faction, even if -not- in a goblin city.

Basically, all-in-all, people get lazy, people roleplay in the most accessible area. People roleplay in the area other people are roleplaying.

If you change where the lazy people can go, then they'll take the easier route, then the people that go where the roleplay goes, will follow them to these new places. If they still want a character to roleplay in a certain area after it would be taken off in a month. Then they better set a hearthstone there.

2cents.

[Ben]

We're talking custom content! Yay!

OK, in retail, an RPer could make waves of influence throughout a whole load of RPer and so COULD change the city, or at least the RPers perspective of the city, because there were just so MANY PEOPLE. We're a small community, and so I feel there needs to be something bigger. Social dynamics don't have the same affect.

Neutral areas help with social dynamics, but not to the same affect, and we are sort of forced into a mindset where we can't be too big, or we'll change things. Why not?

If the world can evolve around US, but not in massive ways, then won't that be more fun? A town springing up, then being destroyed, and the like. Not a fancy town, a couple of spawned buildings.

That's what I think on custom content anyway, it's a way to affect a world devoid of masses of players in a way that affects all of us. That wouldn't happen through RP alone.

[Ural]

...where we could change precisely nothing ...simply with interactions, doing events... I've never looked at a place and gone "I wish my character's actions would change this city!" because I've never had that urge ...outside of the scope or power level that most players are at.

I look at the static cities and large scale events with this thought: "I wish my character was a part of something bigger than themselves." That is probably why most of my characters join some sort of guild. I suppose I want my characters to develop with a sense of responsibility and kinsmanship.

The part in bold? I liked how in the Stonetalon events the main GM-controlled characters were neigh untouchable, on the battlefield and off, except by other similar characters.

Spoiler:

Yes I'm still a fanboi of Stonetalon, lemme alone. It was good for Irogh.

[Rigley]

The part in bold? I liked how in the Stonetalon events the main GM-controlled characters were neigh untouchable, on the battlefield and off, except by other similar characters.

Psh. Tell that to Orzooth and Therandes.

EDIT: I do have to say on that note though that I was rather pleased with the scale displayed in Stonetalon. You had people toppling giant ancients and rock giants, but you had an army backing them and more often than not siege machinery. The leaders weren't giant invincible tankmonsters, in fact Orzooth to begin with was punked out pretty bad when it came to fighting him.

It was honestly the event I'm most proud of in my time as a GM. Hopefully I can surpass it in my upcoming dorf war.

[Psychyn]

OK, in retail, an RPer could make waves of influence throughout a whole load of RPer and so COULD change the city, or at least the RPers perspective of the city, because there were just so MANY PEOPLE.

The only way RPers could make a wave of influence on RP, is gathering numbers. They end up with 20 RPers of the kingdom of Stromgarde, clear out the city entirely by simple mechanical combat, and then end up RPing there. They don't got any custom content like we do on here, at all.

... Why can't people do that on here? While ICly you would be dead in this example, you can just as easily run through an pretty instance, clear it and end up RPing in a beautiful cave such as the Wailing Caverns. Need a big ass ship? Deadmines. Those places have ICly already been cleared, so it's just a mass slaughtering of the mobs. Heck, with some effort you can even RP in ICC.

Some creativity can go a long way. I was about to RP in Old Arathi (Caverns of time) last night but we ended up exploring the place rather. Still fun however, and it's a awesome place to RP in.

Looking at the realism earlier such as Stromgarde ; Does RP always have to be realistic? When RP stops being fun, due to realism problems, is that a good thing? I've actually had my best times on retailish-non realistic RP where my character took hostage of a Night elf in a tavern, ended up outnumbered and thus threw himself through a window, got stabbed a few days later and died, only to walk again on the next day. Nobody gave a damn about it, some even replied with "Excuse me, I believe I heard a guy who I believed to be dead." and I actually had to run away a few times.

.. I think that actually was my first RP, ended up with 15 people in the same room all threatening to kill my poor rogue. *snicker*

Still, fun stuff. Not serious at all, but fun.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Looking at the realism earlier such as Stromgarde ; Does RP always have to be realistic? When RP stops being fun, due to realism problems, is that a good thing? I've actually had my best times on retailish-non realistic RP where my character took hostage of a Night elf in a tavern, ended up outnumbered and thus threw himself through a window, got stabbed a few days later and died, only to walk again on the next day. Nobody gave a damn about it, some even replied with "Excuse me, I believe I heard a guy who I believed to be dead." and I actually had to run away a few times.

I'm just gonna point this out right here, and counter your question with a counter. When does being non-realistic stop getting fun? For example, if you stab someone in the heart and they continue to fight you, is that fun? You may not need a specific amount of realism in your RP, but others (such as myself) may enjoy realistic RP.

[Wuvvums]

I think it depends on the level of realism people go for. No, no one should really last after being stabbed in the heart. However, should I be lectured because I'm a gnome with a big gun and realistically I shouldn't be able to hold the gun let alone shoot it? And should I be told that I can't walk or run normally in plate? Or that I would likely not survive jumping off a waterfall? I think there's some bits where we should expect realism and some bits where we can be flexible about it.

[Rigley]

I've just become rather jaded with scales of power and realism, I suppose. I understand the need for people to fight big things and feel like a hero, but invoking such a feeling shouldn't be the basis of the RP. When I RP I don't ask for much in terms of realism-- scuba diver, undead with magic and such aside-- but a tinge of it would be nice. I don't want to be in a group of five or ten fighting what would ICly require an army to combat, or be in an outnumbered party fighting off fel orcs by the droves. We shouldn't win such encounters.

I recall hosting events were the main enemies were simple zombies, and people were still happy. If those had all been abominations they may have felt like more of a hero, but do we really want that? Boosting an ego by undercutting the scale of an NPC?

I'm honestly kinda concerned with my upcoming events in this regard, really. What I have to contend with are events like these, which are likely more appealing to many people. You can go save the world from a big bad monster, or can blow down some Dark Irons and flying machines.

...Eh.

[Psychyn]

I'm just gonna point this out right here, and counter your question with a counter. When does being non-realistic stop getting fun? For example, if you stab someone in the heart and they continue to fight you, is that fun? You may not need a specific amount of realism in your RP, but others (such as myself) may enjoy realistic RP.

A valid counter question. I however not meant that things shouldn't be serious at all, but rather that some of the seriousness could be dropped to make a bigger room for fun. That people could be less serious when looking at awesome RP spots, clear out the mobs, and use the terrain as themselves for a while. There are a lot of places untouched, yet the demands for custom content are high. Why? When people haven't seen the entire world yet, let alone RPed in half of it.. Why make new additions to simply make the world even bigger then it already is?

I recall hosting events were the main enemies were simple zombies, and people were still happy. If those had all been abominations they may have felt like more of a hero, but do we really want that? Boosting an ego by undercutting the scale of an NPC?

Those are always fun. I've held events in which you were just fighting a bunch of regular Orc's. Sure, I've had an event with demons but the costs were high because of it. Events, do not require custom content at all to be held. I'm not saying I never made use of it, or tried to host ones with custom content, but events shouldn't be about the custom content.

I think Wuvv worded it quite nicely there, it's all about the level of realism we are striving for right now. However.. I'm not sure if it's still relevant to the original topic. The Realism bit that is.