The Problem of Prestiges

[Rosencrat]

Grakor doesn't want to allow them to have power. Simple as that.

Be wary of over-simplification, for it is the velvet glove that the devil slips his hand into.

[Kretol]

Well... instead of lamenting and getting heated over what will eventually be lost, I think we should think of what we can do to balance things out again as far as progression/alternate advancement/Other Schtuff is concerned.

Please try to be optimistic!

[Rosencrat]

Guilds.

Put your energy into making guilds. That's a constructive hobby, no? And it provides ample energy for character development.

We always need a good guild around to break the funk.

[Brutalskars]

But optimism hurts! It only goes so far! *Sobbing*

[Grakor456]

One magic word. Wrong. You imply that the sins of the father are the sins of the son, Grakor. Quite frankly, they aren't. You can't judge a new system off of those who went through the old one. Especially when all your problems come from the old one. Give it a damn chance. Let people finish before you follow through with your preconcieved notion that failure is the only option.

Incorrect.

That the current batch of prestiges are going through a slightly different application process is ultimately irrelevant to the core problems of prestiges. That, to use a random example, Sozun was made a Shadow Ascendant in the previous system does not change that what the character is NOW is defined by the current system. That, to use another random example, Gorose might become a Shadow Ascendant under the new system doesn't change that, in the end, he'd be playing by the same rules that Sozun is playing by *right now.*

So, two months down the line, what exactly separates prestige-completed Gorose and Sozun, in terms of what their prestiges give them? Nothing at all.

This is, in fact, part of the failing of the current system. It was intended not only to fix new prestiges, but older ones. That it failed proves that the system did not work.

People, you're acting as if people change with the Prestige Systems. People will still want power. Grakor doesn't want to allow them to have power. Simple as that.

Not quite correct. I think power is a problem when done in relation to other characters. Power on its own isn't an issue. I was the one that sort of shrugged at the idea of people RPing Blademasters and the like right off the bat, after all. It was only through the pleas of some of the other GMs that I don't let it happen.

[Aphetoros]

Now we're just tossing sparks onto a wildfire

[Zarquon]

If I might humbly suggest;

Lock the thread, move it to the announcement and you might as well just set a date. The decision had been made, and the people who hammered it had already hammered it; the people who disagreed already expressed their displeasure, and the people who are leaving have already left or are. Since Grakor had all but erected a brick wall as to this matter, then leaving it as it is will only drag out the shitstorm.

What is done is done. I can only expressed my utmost sadness that it had to come to this, but CoTH is just going to have to accept the ramifications of its administrator's decision.

Actions have ramifications. I and others have done our best to persuade you that this would only be detrimental, that this wouldn't be a good idea; we tried to convince you that this decision was ill-made, notwithstanding the lack of open and prior discussion with the player base. We have failed, so as matters stand, we stand perched upon a precipice to the wide unknown.

I have played the devil's advocate, and I believe that I have played it well. I guess all we can hope for is the best of luck in the future.

Forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but it is my personal opinion that this thread had outlived its purposes, and should be locked.

And we to move on.

EDIT: Cats.

[Kretol]

There are brick walls all around. There are a lot of folks that can't seem to attempt to see perspectives from other sides, and it's been implied that the debate can rage on for days if not weeks without opinions changing.

However, I don't understand why a lot of the more vocal folks are those that don't actually play here anymore (or actively). Some may say they still have a vested interest in the server/community, but I don't think they have a proper perspective other than what they personally experienced while they were still active.

Regardless, Grak can decide whether (or when) to lock the thread. All I will say is that I'm getting tired of the narrow-mindedness and doom-saying that's been expressed in this thread, and hope it ceases if this is left open. People, be constructive. Whether you support the decision or not, express it rationally and preferably with alternative suggestions if you don't.

[Reigen]

I can try to look at this from the bright side, but I'm just a little hurt that it was implied that all of us were doing our prestige for power. That wasn't the case for mine at all, if you looked at the skills, you'd see that they were just more focused at frost magic with a few extra skills that WoW doesn't outright give us. I never wanted to ask for roll bonuses, I just wanted to change Reigen without having to torture her, maim her or kill her.

How can we really be constructive when it's been set in stone? I'll give it a go though, but not with something that wont be changed!

If anything, I'd like to see player involvement in this possible alternative system. You never know, some of us might see something others overlook. What one person might want in a system, ten others might dislike and something could come out that while the GMs/admins think it might be alright, the players absolutely hate it. [Not saying we will, mind you.]. Give everyone a chance to say what they want to see and perhaps maybe...just maybe...something can be thought of that makes -everyone- happy.

I just want us to feel involved, like our opinions could make a different in a place that is our home for RP.

Even if you don't want our opinions in this system, please take time with it. Rome wasn't built in a day and great things take time. Perhaps that's an issue with the prestige system...the GM's tried to meet our demand for something -NOW- rather than taking the extra time to find any possible kinks in the system. We demanded something and now that it's somehow messed up, we blame one person. Perhaps there was some abuse and we as players just never saw it, some glaring flaw that we, in our lust for something different, over-looked. I know I don't want to be [Race][Class]#3098, but I also don't want to be Lore figure #1.

tl;dr: I just want our voice to be somewhat heard. If not in the old system, then perhaps in the new idea.

[Dotsy]

I've heard a bit from both sides. Honestly though, a prestige system shouldn't be something that'll "make or break" all character development. I've been here for a while, and I have seen the many wonderful characters of other players that have gone through so many different situations with other characters and things. There's some development there as well. Whether we need a prestige system or not shouldn't ignite this much strife between everyone, in my honest opinion.

I just hope we can all stay level-headed in this discussion, yes?

[Kaghuros]

Certainly there's a middle ground. People ought to have the ability to fill niches in the Warcraft world that Blizzard gave us but didn't explicitly outline, like the Warrior-Priestesses of Elune who ride into battle decked in plate armor and wielding a glaive and the word of the Goddess, or wise Orcish Blademasters who eschew the bloodrage of their peers for a more focused, worldly concept of honor in battle. Those are things that the game already has, and we have the tools for, that can be played but are considered to be more than the average character. Maybe that perception should change.

Even more varying kinds of character do have a backing in lore, or just a little extra imagination needed from the base class for their use. Mages and even Warlocks who blend technology and magic aren't new to the Warcraft world, they're just eccentric and distant from most characters' lives so as to rarely be seen. Runic magic is still a way to channel powerful energies for the Mage who just needs a little more oomph in his teleport spell to get a few more miles ahead, or the budding Warlock still afraid of the vile corruption of touching Fel directly, praying to whatever gods he still follows that maybe he won't be tainted this time.

Technomage, Runecaster, Blademaster, Far Seer, Priestess of Elune, Necromancer, Blood Mage. These are all just like every other class, because every other class can be a "hero" too. Change your perceptions, look from another angle. Everything might be a bit easier than you think if you simply remove power levels altogether and realize that they're just different ways to play a normal class.

So I want to extend this plea to both GMs and players:

If the Prestige system goes away, and I'm thinking the current system will, don't let alternative portrayals of classes disappear too. I'd like to keep different directions for my characters open, as regular-power characters not prestiges, even as special profiles.

Just take a moment to think about it, and maybe it'll seem like the most reasonable, simple solution. Who knows?

[ThePharaoh]

I don't know, I've taken a step back and looked through this thread. It's getting kind of ugly. I agree with a few things said as I was thinking them earlier. It's rude but its the truth, some people do need to step away from the computer and do something. This applies to myself as well at times. Also if it was my server, or I was in charge of it. I'd probably also be one to say "Its our s%$# GTFO" but Grakor hasn't said that in so many words.

I have to look at why I'm here to see why this matters. I enjoy RP because I love adventure. I love a party of individuals, coming together through experiences and gaining strength fighting fantasy creatures. You don't need to be powerful to do this. I've done it with regular characters, Raphael regular warrior. Not even that good of a fighter, Jean beats him up most of the time. But he's went on and lead some monumental adventures to those involved.

Prestiges are interesting because there is even more that can be done. It's been discussed, but this doesn't always mean combat. To me a well played noble is a prestige. I will say that I still disagree, people do want to RP students. I have and it was a comment against it saying thats why Aula Arcanum failed. But for a while it was one of the biggest guilds. I've always been a fan of the concept and because of it's impact way back in the day which brought RP to Scryers tower to ridiculous levels, that the concept is still relevant today.

If you scrap prestiges, hey its your #$*( do what you want. lol I don't have one anyway, never had one. I am working on one now currently though. It won't change the RP I will get, just what I can do. I don't think attacking Cressy or Grakor will solve anything, nor should they or anyone else dismiss others opinions as if they've been recycled. People post because it matters to them, but 12 pages is pretty crazy.

At first I was like WTF NOOO!! but now I'm kind of like meh * smokes * I do hope that there are new possibilities open though. Like entrepreneurs and other things like that. But I don't know they seem open now, people really can do a lot of stuff if they actually PM a GM and run down a well thought out Idea. And before you say bullsh- No I know, because I've done it. More than once. The GM's promote RP but they don't want reckless or hasty stuff.

I still kind of think, take away roll bonuses would solve this whole issue though. even though Roll bonuses don't have to be issued or acknowledged anyway but that's been said before. But logical sense an Arch mage should always beat a mage, and so on but there are instances like David and Goliath a good RPer can adapt to the reason they lost. Or make it so they're not like obliterated, but beat. They lost a skirmish.

And though I don't agree with everything, Cressy was right.

There is a pattern.

Something happens which causes a 18 page drama thread.

instead of two cents everyone throws in six dollars, people leave. Some care, some don't give a damn. RP continues.

More people come, more people -always- come. And some of those people will love it just like you did when you first got here. I see a lot of good Rper's walking that line my friend walked. Don't get mad say something irrational and then get banned. It's not worth it, RP and lets see what happens. The real 17 page thread should be "Ay Kretol when can we get cataclysm? "

Sorry if I offended.

* resumes smoking *

[Clovis]

You know what I do not get...

When players who aren't even active here are being vocal about the system.

With all due respect, Cressnub. Just because a player is inactive doesn't mean they're wiped clean from the server community. I personally intend to come back with the restart.


( Bleh. Off to work! )

[Jonoth]

Half true. There are prestiges under this new system because the old prestiges got translated into these new ones. I've also been able to witness how people are treating them, both for their own declared reasons for wishing prestiges and how people have been reacting to and speaking about the current system. That the current batch of applicants hasn't reached full prestige-ness is somewhat irrelevant as we DO have full prestige characters already.

Taken from the Prestige Opening announcement thread:

PRESTIGE ENFORCMENT:

To ensure prestige characters do not abuse their powers a rigid system of oversight and punishments will be put in place.

If a player has been found to be poorly playing his character or using it to abuse other players in or out of combat, a GM will send them a verbal warning. The warning must detail the accusations against the player and cite the consequences for further infractions.

The player will have a chance to plead their case. Their case will be heard by the GMs and weighed upon.

If, after the first warning is issued, the character continues to use their prestige in a manner GMs find unsuitable for the server, the character, not player, will be banned for a month. They will be informed of such and the consequences for further infractions detailed.

If a third case occurs the player will have their prestige character permanently killed. After a period decided based on the severity of the infractions, the player will be able to re-submit an application for another prestige. The killed prestige will no longer count as a completed prestige.

Infractions and warnings will be listed in a separate warning thread within the private prestige sub-forum and will be used when considering the player for a prestige character.

Any questions may be posted in the below thread or PMed privately to a Game Moderator.

This is clearly posted for any player who has or is applying for a prestige. If the terms are being violated as much as has been said in this thread, then why hasn't any action been taken against it? If people are violating the rules so freely, and there aren't any repercussions, then no wonder it's grown to an apparently rampant problem. The issue then becomes not the presence of prestiges, but the enforcement of the rules of having one.

[ImagenAshyun]

I was going to type up a relatively long post about how I feel about the prestige system (which I dislike as a whole), but this thread is becoming insanely long and I can't read all the pages yet. So I'll simplify what I have instead:

I hate the idea of just giving yourself a title and then assume you have actual prestige besides roll bonuses. Why can't people just get prestige like you would in real life: build upon it through action and reputation?