The Problem of Prestiges

[Grakor456]

I'm sure most of you remember my rant a while back...especially in regard to prestiges. I've received a few questions about how we'll be moving on in the future, and what will happen to them. I also had many questions when the Runemasters and Necromancers got taken down, and I made comment that retcons would be necessary for them by the next restart.

A decision was made about prestiges as well.

A while ago, I would have just been resigned to the idea that nothing would ever really change. Some things the playerbase is simply too attached to, and wouldn't give it up willingly. However, as I was ranting about this, Cressy said something to me, in the ever so eloquent manner that only she is capable of: "It's you guys' server. If you don't like it, grow some balls and change it."

Her way with words always continues to amaze me.

Normally I wouldn't put a thread like this out here without having a firm idea of "what will happen next?" I don't know what will happen next because it's still being discussed and I'm still evaluating what I feel comfortable with letting happen or not happen. However, I feel that it is fair that everyone on the server know what is going on and so that they can make their decisions regarding prestiges intelligently.

Prestiges are going to die, and never come back. It may not happen today, or tomorrow, but the system will be buried by the next restart, whenever that happens to be.

I'm sure I just became the most unpopular person on the server.

The Problems With Prestiges

I always come across as that guy that hates anything custom or new. Heck, maybe I am. However, there are several reasons why the prestige system fails, and has failed since it was thought up. I'm going to bring up the strongest points as to why the system needs to go, however:

1. Prestiges can kill RP as often, if not more often, than they create it.

When the system was put in, it was thought that prestiges would, essentially, create new RP for folks and give them something to work towards. Moreso than that, however, it was a hope that prestiges would spark interesting RP both during the training process and after the training process. That hope. however, ended up falling flat.

I can't count the number of times I've seen arena tournaments or other PvP events ruined due to the presence of a Myrmidon/Gladiator prestige stealing the spotlight. I can't count the number of times I've seen people complain about the power of prestiges and get turned off from an RP because of that. Because prestiges are intended to be more powerful than normal characters, they get a free pass to walk over others during events and it's not fun for anyone involved. This can cause a lot of friction between players.

Prestiges were meant to be awe inspiring to a limited degree, but this happened not because of the character's accomplishments, but because of a roll bonus. Prestige characters often weren't given any respect, nor were most prestige characters responsible for creating RP on the server. Instead...

2. Prestiges were taken for reasons of power, not character development.

Let's be honest: prestiges are nice because people like roll bonuses. People like being special and important. Some prestiges were used to further characters, but most of the time it was a bid for power and little more.

Aside from that power, the prestige system does nothing that couldn't be done with a personal storyline. Who plays an apprentice who, over time and through a trying quest, becomes a full Mage? No prestiges involved, and you'd have essentially the same story. The only exception to this were certain prestiges that served as vehicles for storytelling, Dragonsworn being the obvious example. Even then, I think many people tried to go Dragonsworn as a default, not for the RP possibilities.

3. Prestiges do not make sense given WoW's class system.

I've mentioned this before. Many of the prestiges we used in the past were d20 transfers...even if we changed the titles to be something different from the d20's interpretation, many of them simply don't make sense in the current scheme of things. If we removed them, then what's the point?

WoW Shaman are a combination of orc shaman, troll witch doctors, and tauren spirit walkers.

WoW Hunters who spec Beastmastery might as well be beast masters, those that spec Marksmanship are essentially dead shots.

WoW Fury Warriors are berserkers and/or bone crushers, WoW Arms Warriors by default have the most iconic blademaster skill.

The list goes on.

WoW's classes were never meant to advance in this manner.

4. Prestiges are rigid.

The recent system in particular was given flak for being *too defined*. Titles in general, as long as we're drawing them from the d20 or any other limited source, will remain very limited in terms of customization.

What's In The Future?

I wish I could say for certain what will come in the future. There is talk of possibilities that will attempt to fix these problems, or we'll simply get rid of them entirely. The future is still uncertain.

The question also arises as to what will happen to existing prestiges when the restart eventually comes. Many feel that forcing a retcon on these characters would be disrespectful to their work. On the other hand, so long as any prestige character exists, the above problems will persist.

There is also the question of drama. Though, my personal opinion is that if everyone is not mature enough to handle the removal of the system, then perhaps that is proof enough that it needed to go a long time ago.

I will attempt to keep people informed as to future developments on this issue. I felt it was necessary to announce and get it out there, so people can choose whether they wish to keep working on their prestige characters or not.

I may write more on this later.

[Gonaronapus]

Not want! DO NOT WANT!

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'm completely fine with this. One of the reasons I disliked Shivala as a Dead Shot is because her being emotionless was usually detrimental to the RP I got her in. It really depends though, as to what Prestige it is. Where as Shivala or a Gladiator might've been bad for RP, whereas someone like Fala'thorei or Marianna have made plenty of RP in their time that I don't think would've been quite as... good if they were just a regular Hunter or Warlock.

[Brutalskars]

All I have for you all.

Spoiler:

[Clovis]

Spoiler:

This isn't really important to me, but I am curious: How will you handle things like felsworn? Where certain people had being a felsworn as a critical component to their character.

[Saiyuu]

Maybe the solution is actually open prestiges, but only as a title rather than a "bonus generator". For example, like it was being done with Runemasters and Necromancers, mostly by creating special profiles with some degree of information that is also found on prestige posts (How your character became this? What's his/her motivation? Why?). It gives more window for "customization" without the need of bonus (which sometimes make little sense indeed).

[Aphetoros]

The characters won't work any longer, I assume.



EDIT:

As a serious addendum-- I'm actually worried. Astus is now unplayable, permanently, because it would be silly to remake him as something that isn't a necromancer. Honestly, when I made him a necromancer it was because I wanted to play a necromancer, and sure I had quite a bit of fun with roll bonuses and fighting RP. After a while, though, I felt silly and I tried to become more serious with the roleplay. Honestly? I hardly fight anymore with him, I just use him for some fun RP evil RP. I enjoy necromancers as a class concept greatly, and to be quite honest it saddens me to see it go. I understand your viewpoint, but I feel like RP situations are going to be extremely limited if not difficult-- while prestiges have snipped RP in the bud on occasions, they've also been great motivators -for- RP.

Example, my character Crescenthorn was captured by the ARgus Wake, and the Fel-sworn began to feed him felblood. It's been amazing RP, tainted and trying to remain sane while being tortured day and night. It was fun-- it was the best RP I'd had in a long time and all due to prestiges.

[aroes]

[Cressy]

Grakor...

You grew balls, and they are huge.

[Wuvvums]

Actually I can sort of agree with this too on some prestiges. I chose steamwarrior because hey, giant robots are cool, right? But then I realized that I was basically rping a character in a warmachine when there was very little war rp to be had.. and I couldn't see it as a fair scale of power to just whip out the giant robot whenever I please.

And even without steamwarrior you could probably have a tinker pilot a heavy machine in the right events. Either way I found that there was no practical application for rping out this prestige...

And I think a lot of these prestiges fall into the same trap.

I guess I'm not too hurt by seeing them go, or retconning them, personally. I also prefer some things to just be inherent without special training or a special class. Like why can't any tinker pilot a big machine like a steamwarrior? It seems like a situational skill more than anything else.

[Esthrunil]

I'm going to say...

Good riddance. At least from the standpoint of the last system.

[Zarquon]

I liked the idea of a tier system that was previously suggested by Brutalskars due to the fact that is is progressive and forces that progression over a long period of time with defined levels of power. At the moment, it is; you are not, you are becoming, and you are. I personally feel that there is a lot more depth to a tiered prestige system that encourages a player to actually RP his character through the process, rather than merely aiming for the end.

In addition to that, it makes power much more accessible to all in what I call a dilution of power. After all, at this point, it goes along the lines of; "You are a Felsworn. . .or you are not." So many players either get to be a Prestige or don't, and that breeds some resentment amongst those that couldnt. A dilution of power, making Prestige in general less prestigious (oh, irony) might actually serve to make people stop getting so butthurt over it.

But removing Prestige completely? No, I say.

RP is additive, not subtractive. If Prestige adds even an iota of RP, then it succeeded. It is the volume of RP that it provides, it is the fact that it does make more RP, and since 'amount of RP' cannot be quantified, Prestige had effectively gave an infinite amount of RP.

[Real reason alert]. . .also, removing it will kill off my favorite cartoon villain, making me a sad panda.

[Roxas65]

For some reason, i knew this would happen. It's why I decided to not go for a prestige, despite writing the first post. The only thing I can really say I care about is what a waste it is. It's just such a waste of work. Not only the people who has worked for their prestiges, but the staff who have reworked the prestige system for. . . . How many times? Imagine all the hours wasted. It's just such a waste. . .

[Clovis]

For some reason, i knew this would happen. It's why I decided to not go for a prestige, despite writing the first post. The only thing I can really say I care about is what a waste it is. It's just such a waste of work. Not only the people who has worked for their prestiges, but the staff who have reworked the prestige system for. . . . How many times? Imagine all the hours wasted. It's just such a waste. . .

No doubting that people are going to be 'slightly miffed'. GMs and Players alike.

It's unavoidable. The Higher Ups will just need to do damage control where it's possible and just soak up what's left of the damage. But I can understand the appeal of doing this. "Restart happening, we want this slate to be so clean that you can perform a sterile surgery on it".

But it's a gamble. A high risk one.

[sunday12321]

Without failure there is no success. Yes it is a great waste.
But can we really blame -anyone- for this?

I, personally, have been saying that people take the Prestige system too far since the new system came back.
Almost -everyone- in GMI were prancing around, rejoicing on how powerful they'd be.

Power corrupts.
Even virtual.