The Problem of Prestiges

[ptdapen]

First off I'd like to say its a real shame that some people are taking this so seriously. But I also find it completely unnecessary how hostile some people can be when they try to say, "Its not a big deal." Don't want to point fingers or anything, just that as others have said before, let's all try to be a bit civil.

Lemme reiterate: I did not intend on insulting anyone in the slightest.

I might not be the most active person on CotH but I still have a part of me, however big or small, invested in this server/community. Anyhow I'd like to start off by saying I am sad to see the prestige system go but I can accept it. RP still goes on, with or without it. Characters may still be heroes and become accomplished even without them. The roll bonuses? I never liked those in the first place. What I'll miss most is the cultural implications that they have. Some prestige classes are so unique that no base class can represent them. Take this for example:

A necromancer is not a death knight without the armor/weapons. While functionally they work differently so do their backgrounds. A Death Knight must have been a disposable tool at some point. The character must accept this. An independent necromancer who never affiliated with the Scourge is his/her own man/woman. It broadens the unique RP of this server without much harm IMO. Simply being a necromancer doesn't give you an edge over any other caster.

To put it in perspective death knights (different generation than ours but still), paladins, liches, and blademasters were all heroes in Warcraft 3. They certainly vary in power; the average paladin probably wouldn't best a lich in actual lore. So when it is put that way being a blademaster doesn't make you a God at all. Hero status in WC3 shouldn't make a class taboo.

Overall, even if for some bizarre reason Grakor wants to keep prestige classes, the "better versions" of classes need to go, such as Archmage, Archdruid, etc. The title is cool, I would love to have one, but it just implies "I'm superior" too much. But I implore the entire GM staff to consider having "variants" classes as an option for people creating characters. They should still be limited but not imply any extra power over others. What classes would be up for grabs? That's not up to me to decide.

Kudos, I wish you all a pleasant day.

[Nostra]

Hah. Funny. This again.

Funny because I've seen it so many times, right? Well, no, not so funny. We've had a handful of prestige systems now, some with more focus on the ingame stuff like the first, which also had a pretty clever 'mentor-student' training process. Of course it wasn't so clever when the GMs responsible for them burned out quicker than paper dipped in gasoline. Other systems have focused on rolls, flexibility or story writing. They all were taken down.

You know what I think? We're too different to be able to find a system that works for us all. There's always going to be someone or a group of someones being vocal about the faults of X and Y system, be they peons or admins.

I like prestiges, not because they are prestiges but because they include archetypes that are enjoyable to RP. I also used to agree that there should be ways to reward and encourage RP or specific sorts of RP. I don't anymore, the roleplay is in itself reward enough.

I'd rather see a move to take down the 'systems' and let people RP the archetypes they prefer, much like how necromancer/runemaster was made a 'base class'. Nothing special about them, just another way to roleplay your character.

Of course, some will say that there's going to be abusers, but there always have been and I have the feeling there always will be. Something that has bothered me for a long time is the arguement that this would be a reason to remove a system/feature/whatever you label it, especially after having stated specifically that those who do abuse it will be dealt with.

Take this as you will, I am after all a closet-tyrant, but I sincerly hope that every effort is made to actually deal with the abusers before any decision is made penalise the entire server. I do know and trust the GM team to deal with this, but I also know that before I myself threw in the glove we had grown very lax. Both a good and bad thing, we're more accepting, less strict etc, but at the same time we let the abuser and loller into our midst. At least to some degree.

Anyway, one of the things I really enjoy about not being a GM is that I don't have to care about these things anymore. I just miss the absolute power.

Oh. And I do wish I could actually stop caring about these kinds of things too. Anyway, words from a not-so-active member of the community, I hope that doesn't mean my words are valued any less though.

[Cressy]

They are valued less...Becausee youu are nubstrraa.

:3

[Nostra]

I'mma get ya, Cressy, just you wait.

[Ben]

Well. Rather than read 13 pages. I'll give input based on the first page.

I don't have a problem with this, I play my characters to scale with whatever clout the people around me produce. With some jokes. If I want to pilot war machines, I pilot war machines. If I want to summon flame elementals, I create an appropriate circumstance and summon them. If I want to create volcanoes. I do.

That's my take on many many prestiges.

But, classes such as Felbunnies [or whatever they're actually called] do need to stay. Albeit with scaled power, but they are genuinely integral to many RP plots.

There's my 2p, go buy a haribo with it.

Edit: I just realised how much like Cesare that sounded...
If I want to take, I take.
If I want you to DIE, you DIE.

I'm so using that in RP.

[Uthaniel]

I have not read everything here and I don't know if anyone suggested this, but.

Wouldn't a good compromise be to just keep the system open this time around, until the next system comes up?
I mean, the point of this thread is:

"Prestiges are coming down, and a new system that is less focused on "Prestige" may come up"

Why not change it to.

"A new system, less focused on "prestige" is coming up. And when it does, prestiges are coming down."

It seems like a fair compromise, to me. If we're to get the prestiges retconned, they still will get retconned regardless, and we don't have to wait four months for another new system.

[Reese]

I have not read everything here and I don't know if anyone suggested this, but.

Wouldn't a good compromise be to just keep the system open this time around, until the next system comes up?
I mean, the point of this thread is:

"Prestiges are coming down, and a new system that is less focused on "Prestige" may come up"

Why not change it to.

"A new system, less focused on "prestige" is coming up. And when it does, prestiges are coming down."

It seems like a fair compromise, to me. If we're to get the prestiges retconned, they still will get retconned regardless, and we don't have to wait four months for another new system.

Genius.

[Loxmardin]

What has been said so far is that the prestige system as it is will be wiped with the restart, to my knowledge. Whenever said restart comes around. We don't know that yet.

So, until the restart comes around, the prestige system will still "be there".

(Correct me if I'm wrong. This is the impression I got, at least.)

[Uthaniel]

What I've come to understand is that the system may come down whenever, but it's definitely not making it through the restart.

And that's okay. What I'm saying is.

Most people that are against the removal of the prestige system are, frankly, against it because it will take -months- for the other system that may or may not appear show up.

What I'm suggesting, I believe, solves that issue while not necessarily keeping the prestige system around forever.

Simply keep it until the next system is done. Whether that's tomorrow, or after the restart. Knowing that/if we'll have a leverage to pursue the storylines we want to pursue with these "variants" or not, and how exactly the new system will work will greatly ease off the dismay of some of the people that don't want the system gone.


In the end, every single objective is achieved.

The system is ultimately removed, the ones that don't want the system gone will undergo as minimum harm as possible, the ones that want the system gone ultimately get what they want.

Am I saying this makes everyone happy? No. If I knew a way to make everyone happy, I'd be president of the world of Gabrielandia. Sadly, I'm not.
Sadly.

Nonetheless, I'm of the firm belief this is the course of action with the smallest amount of harm. There will still be griefers, yes. Haters will be hatin' and whatnot, as always. But I'm of the belief 99% of this server is composed of mature people. If I'm right, they'll comply.

If I'm wrong, they'll soon find something else to distract their time with, and everyone will be none the wiser.

[Grakor456]

Most people that are against the removal of the prestige system are, frankly, against it because it will take -months- for the other system that may or may not appear show up.

The problem is that there is still a possibility that we will replace the prestige system with nothing. We're not making a promise that a new system will come out until we can actually say with 100% certainty that something new will come out. It may, or it may not.

[Duraza]

I hate the idea of just giving yourself a title and then assume you have actual prestige besides roll bonuses. Why can't people just get prestige like you would in real life: build upon it through action and reputation?

You know... I think it was in the last 'fixing the prestiges' thread that I suggested a 'gaining reputation' instead of 'gaining physical power' thing for prestiges. Can't remember why that was disliked but there was probably a reason.

I bring this up because... You'd be surprised how illegitimate you can feel using the whole 'reputation' thing. Example, my character Sagi gathered quite a bit of infamy when the Heretic Circus was going strong. At first I would think to myself 'how cool, I'm that one guy everyone is ICly afraid of and thinks eats babies and the like...' But then it got weird when I saw people translating that IC reputation into OOC power.

I mean, in both trust and roll battles I had people tell me that Sagi would win because he's 'so much stronger.' When to me... Sagi was still just another shadow priest. Or, the couple of times when I was actually offered a roll bonus in an event? Yeah, that was weird. Not only do you feel you don't actually deserve it (and so I've always rejected gains for him) but what of the players who are also in the event and maybe don't know a thing about me or my character? You run into the 'well why does he get to be more powerful than me' whining that already exists because of prestiges...

When it came to being offered bonuses it felt a whole lot better knowing I had achieved such through a legitimate system rather than some reputation that not everyone knows about... I mean, think how awkward it must be if you are the person who disagrees with this character's power but your friends say its alright so you're unfairly forced to accept it. Its about how awkward the situation will be if you replace reputation with prestige system.

(And no, I'm not offering an argument for keeping bonuses... I just thought that post could use a bit of perspective on the situation when it actually occurs.)

[Uthaniel]

Most people that are against the removal of the prestige system are, frankly, against it because it will take -months- for the other system that may or may not appear show up.

The problem is that there is still a possibility that we will replace the prestige system with nothing. We're not making a promise that a new system will come out until we can actually say with 100% certainty that something new will come out. It may, or it may not.

Then shouldn't a decision be reached on that? I mean.

I understand why you're coming out and saying "The system is going". Because it was decided. But I honestly think that this could've been announced after it was decided if it was going away for something else or not.

As it stands, discussing what will happen is pointless.

It should be decided if there'll be a substitute with the variant classes or not, and when the system is actually going away in either case.

Regardless, should you decide to go for the variant-classes thing (which I personally feel to be a really smart move, but I digress) my suggestion stands. Otherwise, I'd feel that we're all drained of things to say.

You've said it yourself, you've saw every possible rebuttal, every possible argument. My suggestion stands in the event that the new system comes up. In the event it doesn't, then you don't need a suggestion, you just need a date.

Otherwise, I feel that this topic is void of purpose until we know what comes next. We possibly can't argue for or against the system until we're sure that comes after it, if something else is coming or not.

It'd be like electing a president without knowing his plans for the country.

[Grakor456]

Then shouldn't a decision be reached on that? I mean.

I understand why you're coming out and saying "The system is going". Because it was decided. But I honestly think that this could've been announced after it was decided if it was going away for something else or not.

We're attempting to reach a decision on this. It's still being discussed.

Normally, I'd agree with you. I wouldn't normally make a thread like this without a firm handle of what we're doing after. However, I believe that the special circumstances involving this made it necessary to post.

This was somewhat prompted, in fact. Earlier on the day that I posted this thread, I got a whisper from someone proudly proclaiming that he had pre-written all of his prestige posts...someone that I consider a friend. The decision had already been made by then to get rid of prestiges, and I just knew someone was going to get upset over the work done that might not ever see use or purpose. I knew folks would hate an announcement about the disappearance, but at the same time, I didn't want people to work on something that, in the end, may not yield any results.

Ultimately, I felt it was best to get the word out as soon as I could, so people could make informed decisions as to whether to continue their prestige training or not.

[cidaska]

I already gave up on mine, and sent a message to the gm I shot my application at to trash bin it. It sucks that none of those that applied will get the chance to use this new system, and I'm not going to waste my efforts just to watch them go down the drain due to something that I can't control. The uniform vote on this thread is pretty much settled on 'get rid of the prestige system'. So I'm going back to my characters, and try to forget all of this.

[Uthaniel]

Then shouldn't a decision be reached on that? I mean.

I understand why you're coming out and saying "The system is going". Because it was decided. But I honestly think that this could've been announced after it was decided if it was going away for something else or not.

We're attempting to reach a decision on this. It's still being discussed.

Normally, I'd agree with you. I wouldn't normally make a thread like this without a firm handle of what we're doing after. However, I believe that the special circumstances involving this made it necessary to post.

This was somewhat prompted, in fact. Earlier on the day that I posted this thread, I got a whisper from someone proudly proclaiming that he had pre-written all of his prestige posts...someone that I consider a friend. The decision had already been made by then to get rid of prestiges, and I just knew someone was going to get upset over the work done that might not ever see use or purpose. I knew folks would hate an announcement about the disappearance, but at the same time, I didn't want people to work on something that, in the end, may not yield any results.

Ultimately, I felt it was best to get the word out as soon as I could, so people could make informed decisions as to whether to continue their prestige training or not.

In this case, well played indeed. I overlooked that.
Still, I believe the message has been conveyed. Wouldn't it better to postpone the issuing discussion on the system's ultimate fate once we have an idea of what to do next?

EDIT: Though it may be just a -little- to late to suggest that.

Still, better late than never, yes?