'Gansta Elves'?

[hiddengecko]

... Am I going to end up locking my own thread?

Personally, I'd rather you didn't; minor breaches of civility aside, I find this exchange fascinating.

[Micheru]

I agree with Hiddengecko; people being beligerant have been told to stop, and the conversation is an interesting one.

Regarding Lao's statement on the norm, we do have resources like the RPG books, the comics, and the novels to observe the interaction and cultural norms of our various races.

[Dae]

The issue is when -most- characters fit outside the norm that things become strange, and at that point it begins to detract from people who wish to RP characters within the norm.

Furthermore, playing within the norm is -not- playing 'racist person X'. There's a difference between a normal viewpoint and a racist one. There's a difference between being hesitant to associate with orcs and hating them and backtalking them when possible. Hell, playing a -racist- character could very well be called outside the norm, since most simply have reservations to other races and not outright hostility. To say that a character within the norm is just a racist jerk is kinda insulting, to be honest, and as a person who has played a traditional Night Elf I can say that RP isn't impossible. If anything it does make it more interesting, it just depends on the crowd you're around.

But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.

Hipster complex.

We have little example of NPC interation, true, but we have their history, their architecture, their clothes, their current battles...

I think demanding for "Norms" and "Arcetypes" is a bit misworded- what we really need from peoples' characters, no matter where they are now in life, are going to be influenced by the history that has been quite plainly laid out to us by Blizzard.
Without the assumptions, fears, and traumas along with the magic and wonders of Azeroth affecting our characters, there really is no point to bother Roleplaying on a WoW server.

If someone can manage, say, a Belf who likes to get absolutely smashed on the weekends, then I'd say more power too them, as long as they actually acknowledge that their character is a part of the Warcraft universe.

If everyone respects and makes good use of the lore, good "normal" Belves (or characters of any race) will be a matter of course.

[Kenshiro]

So, after reading through every single post, I'd like to summarize the general thoughts...

-Elves seem to be to 'gangster'/rude/un-elfy like.
-People should be able to play any race, however they want, regardless.
-The social norm of X race is not like Y people on the server play it.
-That doesn't matter. We're human, so we have to look at it that way.
-Not every X race is like X stereotype.
-Norms?

I -think- that's all of them. Very, very short representations of what I've generally read.

Now, what I believe is that it all starts with you. The point of Roleplaying is to take the role of someone else and play their lives. If you want to play an elf, like a human, why would you roll an elf?

I'll agree, not all elves are 'pass me the tea and don't forget to lift your pinky as you drink.' But most elves grew up in Silvermoon/Dalaran where there is a certain expectation. If you do not fit, you are shunned by most of them. That is how it is. It's not like humans, where if you go to a bar to start a fight, its not the end of the world and you are not considered a brute. (By most standards) If you RP as above, then you should probably either be a human or be prepared to be treated less-well than other elves.

However, I also agree that people should be able to play however they want. The problem starts there. Nobody wants to have to think, through every single text and thought, 'what would be acceptable, right and proper in terms of an elvish response/thought/action.' It seems like a lot of work. But, that's what makes the -best- representations of an elf. When you see it, you know. You look at their response and it makes you think, because it doesn't seem like something you would do/say. And that is what makes it amazing.

There are also norms in WoW. Just go to any playable classes WoWwiki and there is a section on their culture, which describes what they do and how they do it.

I'd like to end off, with a quote from Dae...

We have little example of NPC interation, true, but we have their history, their architecture, their clothes, their current battles...

I think demanding for "Norms" and "Arcetypes" is a bit misworded- what we really need from peoples' characters, no matter where they are now in life, are going to be influenced by the history that has been quite plainly laid out to us by Blizzard.
Without the assumptions, fears, and traumas along with the magic and wonders of Azeroth affecting our characters, there really is no point to bother Roleplaying on a WoW server.

If someone can manage, say, a Belf who likes to get absolutely smashed on the weekends, then I'd say more power too them, as long as they actually acknowledge that their character is a part of the Warcraft universe.

If everyone respects and makes good use of the lore, good "normal" Belves (or characters of any race) will be a matter of course.

[Rigley]

But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.

Hipster complex.

I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge, but as I prefer not to kick myself in the teeth by going against my own advice...

The 'norm' I'm talking about is what the race in general is characterized as, and there is no denying that that doesn't exist. Blood Elves are typically cultured and prefer style with their substance. Orcs are typically rugged and adhere to a code of honor. Gnomes typically have an inclination towards engineering and general oddities, and have a curious nature.

By this I mean that there are just some aspects of a race which generally can be assumed upon sight of a member of that group. While by no means do I mean to say that we should all act the same if we're dwarves or orcs or tauren, there are certain mannerisms that should be typically present in a member of that race. And as always, there WILL be deviations, but those deviations should not constitute the majority of those played characters or else it will begin to suck you out of the setting.

So there is a 'norm', or at least by the way I intended to say it. I think that was easily assumed, but if it wasn't then very well, there's my explanation. Call it what you want; archetype, norm, so on-- I think I've been pretty clear as to what I mean when I speak about this though.

[Jonoth]

After having a night to sleep on this, a few more thoughts...

I think the hard thing about asking most people to play the "norm", is that it becomes a question of who gets to play the unique, and who is forced to play the standard. If the issue is about how common outsiders have become, then the only true way to limit it is to specify who can play out of the norm, and who doesn't get to do it. And I don't think -anyone- wants to be the person who decides that.

So ultimately, play your character, just be well thought as to how they ended up there. Perhaps your Orc isn't a warmonger or a shaman. Perhaps he's real lax and uncaring, not a fighter nor particularly spiritual. That's cool, but back it up with something related to the race's history, such as him perhaps never truly getting over the great lethargy of the Orcs while they were in the camps. I've seen unruly Belfs that made sense because they were battling their magic addiction, so they were played less classy and sophisticated and more how we'd imagine a drug addict would behave. Again, different from the "norm" but with a real good reason behind it. I had a Gnome that hated engineering, but utilized the ability to analyze that a Gnome would commonly apply to engineering as an assassin, planning escape and entrance routes. So, play your char, but use your noggin.

[Aphetoros]

But what is the norm? Do we know the norm? not really. It's hard to know the norm when you haven't sat back and observed the way people act. I mean, if we could sit down on a park bench in Silvermoon and watch thousands of different elves and then draft of some kind of 'norm' then we could say outside the norm. But we can't. We can't watch NPCs act and interact, unless blizzard decides to make a movie, so there's no official norm. Without an official norm, a norm is made by the people RPing, then, isn't it? Because as our characters, if most of them are 'outside the norm', then the norm isn't the norm, and being outside the norm would be considered norm.

Hipster complex.

I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge, but as I prefer not to kick myself in the teeth by going against my own advice...

The 'norm' I'm talking about is what the race in general is characterized as, and there is no denying that that doesn't exist. Blood Elves are typically cultured and prefer style with their substance. Orcs are typically rugged and adhere to a code of honor. Gnomes typically have an inclination towards engineering and general oddities, and have a curious nature.

By this I mean that there are just some aspects of a race which generally can be assumed upon sight of a member of that group. While by no means do I mean to say that we should all act the same if we're dwarves or orcs or tauren, there are certain mannerisms that should be typically present in a member of that race. And as always, there WILL be deviations, but those deviations should not constitute the majority of those played characters or else it will begin to suck you out of the setting.

So there is a 'norm', or at least by the way I intended to say it. I think that was easily assumed, but if it wasn't then very well, there's my explanation. Call it what you want; archetype, norm, so on-- I think I've been pretty clear as to what I mean when I speak about this though.

I know, I was just being devilishly facetious

I agree, while I wont object to characters being played outside of this norm, there is a certain standard to adhere to. It appeals to the mind, the way we think and the way we are raised.

People don't realize that things are different in different worlds. They don't understand that different countries are different, and we're just one race! Imagine different species-- people with different physical and mental ability.

On Earth, each country and nation has different culture, and each culture has sub-sects on sub-sects on sub-sects. Serial killers, goths, emotionals, artists, roleplayers, writers, animal-lovers, animal-haters, asexuals, homosexuals, heterosexuals, wife-beaters, husband-beaters, child-beaters, the Jewish, the Catholics, protestants, pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, Quakers, and more. That's in one race.

Imagine, a world with over sixty-three sapient species (not including half-breeds, sapient undead, and subspecies). Imagine the different cultures, the different viewpoints the different EVERYTHING.

Maybe to an average belf, the more satin you have the more masculine you are.
Maybe to an average troll, the more mates you have the more powerful you are.
Maybe to an average gnome, the smarter you are and more successful you are the better you'll be perceived.
Maybe to an average night elf, the more reverent to Elune you are, the more respected you are.

Maybe you don't know. Look, I'm not saying these are aliens, but they're aliens. You can't roleplay through a clouded lens, that lens being the lens of a human on Earth. Because you're not on Earth.

You're not a 'human', even if you're roleplaying a human.

Humans in WoW aren't humans from Earth. They're different, their culture is completely different, the only similarity being the name, appearance, and the sheer number and variety of them.

Moral: Before you roll a character, look at the race. Take the society and use it to help sculpt its persona. Believe it or not, our societies have helped carve you too.

So yeah. You're not a human, even if you're roleplaying a human. You're a WoW human. Look at your race, look at their social stigmas and taboos, look at their beliefs and then look at your character. Does your character still make sense? Do they have a reason to be different, if they are? If not, try to find one. Everything will become more meaningful.

[Dae]

Moral: Before you roll a character, look at the race.Take the society and use it to help sculpt its persona. Believe it or not, our societies have helped carve you too.

So yeah. You're not a human, even if you're roleplaying a human. You're a WoW human. Look at your race, look at their social stigmas and taboos, look at their beliefs and then look at your character. Does your character still make sense? Do they have a reason to be different, if they are? If not, try to find one. Everything will become more meaningful.

Such a process is critical to creating a successful character. This is a very good point, and one that I can't help but wonder about how it could be enforced. Even though a clear understanding of a race is required for a character approval, plenty of people play without going through the process of getting a character approved, myself included.

I suppose the only point in which we could intercept people harboring this negligent mindset at the introduction application, as it seems that that is the only point in which all users must come face to face with authority...
This requires further thought, and possibly a suggestion thread.

And perhaps the many good points that have been made in this thread could be synthesized into a supplement to character creation guidelines once this discussion has concluded...

[Kirabo]

One should just try and thing logically. What would a race that's been ravaged by Undead, and by means of carnage and destruction brought down to ten percent of their number? Same goes for any other race and major event they've taken part in. My point is that there's no need for [on CotH de-canonized] RPG books, or any source of the type, no.

Heck, not even that is -required-, per se. The thing we all are expected to do on here is make an effort to try and make our co-writers' experience immerse; Make it seem real. Some are, obviously, not ready or willing to make that effort, and thus, the quality of RP on CotH starts lowering. The bigger the section of lazy people... Well, I'm certain each and every one of you can do the basic math behind it.

[Wuvvums]

On Earth, each country and nation has different culture, and each culture has sub-sects on sub-sects on sub-sects. Serial killers, goths, emotionals, artists, roleplayers, writers, animal-lovers, animal-haters, asexuals, homosexuals, heterosexuals, wife-beaters, husband-beaters, child-beaters, the Jewish, the Catholics, protestants, pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, Quakers, and more. That's in one race.

Are you talking about subsects or subcultures/countercultures? Because being a serial killer isn't a culture. Neither is being a perpetrator of domestic violence or child abuse. And asexuality, homosexuality, and heterosexuality are orientations, not a culture.

And it almost seems to suggest that because humans come in huge varieties that culture is entirely irrelevant. Well it is. You can deviate from your culture some but when you deviate too much it comes with some repercussions. Take for example when you said that a person could be a child-beater. In most cultures we see children as precious and we want to take children from their parents if they are being abused. And serial killers; we usually condemn these too. These are the sort of things that you might do but know it is WRONG because of your culture. These are the things you would hide and keep behind closed doors.

Now imagine if you did follow the norm and you didn't beat children or you didn't kill people. But for some reason everyone thought you were wrong, or that you were somehow just being intolerant. Just all of a sudden you find a bunch of people who think child beating is A-OK and they talk about it, profess it, and they get NO repercussions for such blatant social deviancy. It just wouldn't be right, would it? You'd think SOMEONE would surely call out someone on that.

I think that's sort of what it's like part of the time. If you're going to have such radical views or a radical identity then you're probably going to keep it somewhat secret, or if you don't keep it a secret you're probably going to be hated by most folks. For some reason it's the people who try to emulate what is “right” who get this treatment instead.

[Aphetoros]

On Earth, each country and nation has different culture, and each culture has sub-sects on sub-sects on sub-sects. Serial killers, goths, emotionals, artists, roleplayers, writers, animal-lovers, animal-haters, asexuals, homosexuals, heterosexuals, wife-beaters, husband-beaters, child-beaters, the Jewish, the Catholics, protestants, pagans, Christians, Buddhists, Daoists, Quakers, and more. That's in one race.

Are you talking about subsects or subcultures/countercultures? Because being a serial killer isn't a culture. Neither is being a perpetrator of domestic violence or child abuse. And asexuality, homosexuality, and heterosexuality are orientations, not a culture.

But wuvvums, they are a culture even if it isn't a good one. I'll quote Le Dictionary on Culture, "the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture."

Being gay is a culture, being straight is a culture, beating children is a culture, being a serial killer is a culture. Some ideals made these people the way the are, right? (Well, for many things it's arguable, but we should absolutely not get into that debate.) It's a culture-- it's the behavior and belief characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group.

And it almost seems to suggest that because humans come in huge varieties that culture is entirely irrelevant. Well it is. You can deviate from your culture some but when you deviate too much it comes with some repercussions. Take for example when you said that a person could be a child-beater. In most cultures we see children as precious and we want to take children from their parents if they are being abused. And serial killers; we usually condemn these too. These are the sort of things that you might do but know it is WRONG because of your culture. These are the things you would hide and keep behind closed doors.

Don't take this offensively, but you must be pretty sheltered to believe that. I've taken some time to examine a lot of things, and outside of my pretty little suburb there's a grime-covered poverty and crime-laced hellhole. Shit happens. Every day schoolchildren get shot and killed in my city for reasons the news would be lucky to guess. Stories about people drowned by their parents because they had disabilities and didn't want their children to suffer, I found out one of my best friends used to live in Montana, but his mother whipped him for no explainable reason and didn't beat his sister. Sure, he got taken away and now lives with his dad in Chicago, but they live in a crummy, beaten-down condo because they can't afford much else, and he tries to find the little pleasure that he can in life, that being in his friends outside. There's much more evil than you think, and sadly it's probably hiding right in front of you.

Now imagine if you did follow the norm and you didn't beat children or you didn't kill people. But for some reason everyone thought you were wrong, or that you were somehow just being intolerant. Just all of a sudden you find a bunch of people who think child beating is A-OK and they talk about it, profess it, and they get NO repercussions for such blatant social deviancy. It just wouldn't be right, would it? You'd think SOMEONE would surely call out someone on that.

Realize this. There's communities upon communities of people on the internet, forums and boards for child molesters to associate and talk with each other. Entire websites for murders to socialize and crime syndicates to organize. And what repercussions do they get? Do you think all of these people are caught? All of the victims saved in time? That's unrealistic.

I think that's sort of what it's like part of the time. If you're going to have such radical views or a radical identity then you're probably going to keep it somewhat secret, or if you don't keep it a secret you're probably going to be hated by most folks. For some reason it's the people who try to emulate what is “right” who get this treatment instead.

And you're right, people do keep it secret. But it won't stop it from happening-- it won't stop cults like the Cult of the Damned from spreading, from the Twilight's Hammer from getting recruits (as we can see they get bold and openly camp outside of Orgrimmar!)

Culture is subjective. There are cultures within cultures, split by nations and 'race' (skin color, for humans.) Call it racist, but if you wanna say that black people and white people don't have different cultures you're nuts. They do and it's quite evident and such things can be applied to worlds like WoW too. Except on a much more grand scale.

Humans, elves, orcs, goblins, gnomes, trolls. We don't just have different skin colors or ethnicities, we have entire different sentient and sapient species. Imagine the diversity of our human race, and then multiply it by 602000000000000000000000 (that's a mole, if you were wondering). There's infinite room for creativity, infinite room for expansion. There's so much different it's not easy to play something perfectly. People are going to play what they know. It's difficult to explain to each individual the differences not only in society itself, but in race, religion, and history. Maybe if you've gone, and changed societies and lived in entirely different cultures (moving from Russia to America like a friend I know who lived there for 14 years before coming here.) Imagine the culture shock.

It's not easy. I mean, at the end of the day we're playing a game, and if we're going to care about elves speaking with obscene tonality and using bad manners, then by god I don't know what to say. Yes, it's a question of 'does it make sense'. But if you think about it-- it really does. We're not playing the majority of the population (usually.) We're oft playing the heroes or villains, the men and women who stand and fight for what we believe in. You might be playing a simple farmer, but you're no ordinary farmer are you? The way you roleplay a farmer might be different from every other farmer in Azeroth. Maybe you've done extensive research on Azerothian farmers and how they act by talking and questing for every farmer NPC in game. Maybe you try to emulate it exactly. But then maybe you're a stale character. Maybe you're no different from every NPC in the world, so then is there a point? What story are you trying to tell by that? Just roleplaying alone in a farm, tending to your crops hoping some people want to be your farming family? It could be interesting right? Maybe you like that kind of RP. Maybe someone else likes their elves swearing a shitstorm.

Let it be.

[Xigo]

...

Locking. This has deviated from the original intent of the thread far enough. And a line has been crossed in such a way that... I just don't want this discussion continuing.

[Kretol]

We may be touching on some topics not entirely related, but for the original subject - I don't think the problem is people wanting to be a bit different. It's more along the lines of suddenly making those extreme deviations and regarding them as the new norm. I don't care if it's a new fad (or even a past fad) and most players are doing it - it's never going to be the norm in their respective race's society. Therefore, the characters should expect appropriate repercussions ICly if they're being such black sheep among characters (players or NPCs) that align more with the general population of their races.

(Sorry, was formulating a post as the thread was being locked!)