Risque Images and Writing on the Forums

[Saiyuu]

Honestly, I think the warnings exist for a reason, not to serve as something to bother your eyes while you glare in anger at the drawing YOU CLEARLY DIDN'T WANT TO SEE. Yet, people ignore all warnings and spoiler tags and just go ahead and look at what they dislike. Self-torture at its best.

I think the ultimate problem with this logic I have, and from what Kretol has said to me that he has as well, is that the link shouldn't have been present in the first place. Would you go to your college message board and post a public link to dirty drawings that you've done?

If it shouldn't be here, then a spoiler or a link doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be here.

That's the point. What people post here is actually allowed. And even a good deal of our community's artists have to place spoiler tags and warning, and even so they receive complaints about it.

Yet, people ignore all warnings and spoiler tags and just go ahead and look at what they dislike. Self-torture at its best.

As I said. Please stop posting this kind of retort. It isn't helping the matter at all, it's just going to cause more animosity.

This can be discussed without the entire thread exploding, but it's going to take restraint from everyone to make that happen.

This wasn't meant to be a jab, Rigley, but a statement of how things unfortunately end up happening here sometimes. It's done not by one person in particular, but by more than one.

[Jonoth]

I want to throw in a devil's advocate situation involving nudity IG...

Pre-restart, I had a character some may have come across, Kela aka Zufli'Kela'rin, a troll witch doctor. I haven't really RPed her post-restart, but in the time before she basically walked around shirtless. It led to some interesting (and often funny) situations, but the origins of the nudity is that her display of her breasts are a sign of her proud femininity in a male-dominated culture. A sort of way to constantly flip off any who looked down on her for being a woman witch doctor. At the same time, I tried to readily acknowledge that it was an older character, so her "melons" so to speak weren't exactly..."ripe". Think National Geographic. I enjoyed the concept quite a bit, and figured this would be the perfect time to ask if something like this is still acceptable, given the current line of discussion.

[c0rzilla]

Life imitates art imitates life...on and on, unfortunately. Not sure CotH is large enough for the "Free Speech" card on that.

Since when is art supposed to be about ultra-realism? For all I know as an Art student, one of the most important aspects on Art is how it can be done differently, in different styles, different instances, by different people.

I mentioned nothing of blatant realism in that statement. Even the most abstract, cubist, surreal...or just plain badly drawn (not calling your stuff badly drawn here) piece can have messages from real life.

This is what I mean. Art imitates life, society, memes (not the internet kind), and we imitate in turn.

I want to throw in a devil's advocate situation involving nudity IG...

Pre-restart, I had a character some may have come across, Kela aka Zufli'Kela'rin, a troll witch doctor. I haven't really RPed her post-restart, but in the time before she basically walked around shirtless. It led to some interesting (and often funny) situations, but the origins of the nudity is that her display of her breasts are a sign of her proud femininity in a male-dominated culture. A sort of way to constantly flip off any who looked down on her for being a woman witch doctor. At the same time, I tried to readily acknowledge that it was an older character, so her "melons" so to speak weren't exactly..."ripe". Think National Geographic. I enjoyed the concept quite a bit, and figured this would be the perfect time to ask if something like this is still acceptable, given the current line of discussion.

I actually wouldn't call this "devil's advocate" material. I mentioned earlier there is a huge difference between things like Kela (well RPed) and things that go too far in some people's minds. Things that I won't link here.

[Grakor456]

That's the point. What people post here is actually allowed. And even a good deal of our community's artists have to place spoiler tags and warning, and even so they receive complaints about it.

I misunderstood your point, my apologies.

That said, let's everyone calm down and take a breather for a moment. If folks are going to get up in arms over this so quickly, I'll have to lock the thread, and I don't want to have to do that.

[Wuvvums]

I just read your material that you posted earlier, Corzilla, I think it does point out some of the problems I feel like is with society today and the expectations placed upon women and girls.

Thanks for that.

[ImagenAshyun]

That's the point. What people post here is actually allowed. And even a good deal of our community's artists have to place spoiler tags and warning, and even so they receive complaints about it.

I misunderstood your point, my apologies.


That said, let's everyone calm down and take a breather for a moment. If folks are going to get up in arms over this so quickly, I'll have to lock the thread, and I don't want to have to do that.

I was going to suggest that. This thread wasn't up for an hour and it has exploded into political debate, something we didn't even intend to have. And discussions of politics is against server policy.

[Esthrunil]

For all I've learned in my art classes, to do those different styles of art, you must first know what something looks like in a realistic art-form. To break the rules, you have to know them first. Even abstract art has some basis in the real world, however broken and small that connection is.

This is entirely beside the point, however. I'd reckon that the way you post your warnings is part of the reason people look into them. They're more often than not very passive-aggressive.

[Aphetoros]

In the grand scheme of things, what is truly real, and what is a figment of the twisted refractions that our eyes manage to see?

[Psychyn]

Derp. I think the post I was quoting, got edited or removed. Placeholder.

Edit, found it again. Woo.

These jabs do feel low. I think a lot of us actually have been showing restraint in what we've been saying lately. We've even backed off when asked to and drop things when they get too far. That being said I always wanted to say this and it's not directed at anyone in particular.

It's a man's world and I feel like half the time things are made for men, to please men, and I feel like coth is becoming like this. I'm sick of women being objectified, infantilized, stereotyped, and so on and overlooked for not being one of these. And then when speaking about the treatment and depiction of women, most people get offended. Most people don't want to think that they've been sexist or acted sexist before but it happens, and when discussing why x or y material is sexist, people are going to get a little uppity about this.

And you know what? I can't ignore this because it's EVERYWHERE, and I just have to deal with it, unfortunately.

I think I may have missed something, but I can not find the entire link how it is related to pictures and art pieces on CotH. Is CotH (or it's members if you will) to be blamed for the outside world?

In-game or the forums I've never seen a women being infatilized/objectified. I actually had to look the meaning up, but now that I know of it, I can't say that I've seen this or anything close to it. I am friends with quite a lot of female CotH players, and I am positive that each and every single one would smack me for treating them that way. By that logic, I can't say I have seen this.

Stereotype, I have to admit. It happens, but I just close my eyes to it (or possibly engage in it myself) because.. After all, I am a man. I can't 100% know how a female would respond, act, react or emote thus I go with what I've seen so far from others on the internet or what I think 'feels' right. If that turns it into a stereotype.. Then frankly, there's nothing that can be done. I do not intend to follow classes and study the female mind more as I'm having enough troubles to understand my own at times. (Small joke, if it fails, I'll remove it)

To become more serious again, I've never seen a single mention or 'event' where people got offended when such a thing was mentioned..

.. I think I really missed something that caused this, as in my 'image' or 'feeling' of CotH, none of this applies?

I am truly sorry for lacking information, but I felt like commenting on that from (my own) male perspective.

Edit2; Reading the Gm responses, feel free to PM me Wuvvums if you want to reply. ^^
Edit3 ; Moved edit message. Going great so far Psynub. Lh2post.

[Esthrunil]

Real in the artistic world is typically a fully rendered image that represents well what is believed to be the nearly universal perception of the rendered object.

Perception is as close to reality as I feel we can get, on a philosophical (and psychological) standpoint.

[ImagenAshyun]

For some, the very portrayal of a flirtatious female is an offense to all things feminist. Bear in mind, though, that the feminist movement comes in waves with different ideals. Even a woman deciding to become a mother instead of a worker can be offensive.

This is why Grakor made the initial post, though, to define what is allowable in COTH and what is not, in concrete, non-subjective terms. Yet this has turned into a debate of sexualizing women and feminine ideas. I highly recommend this tones down, please.

If you want to debate political ideas, take it out of here. If you have little to contribute on server policy and defining what should and what shouldn't be allowed, then go someplace else.

[Cressy]

Have you ever sort of looked at a thread and gone.

"Well FUDGECICLE, I know where this is going to end up."

I did that. Repeatedly. And more so as I read on in the post.

I think at this point in time everyone knows what is going on and how people feel.

The issue is...People are feeling offended by something or by someone or whatever, and as a community, when as many people have come forth to say that the same thing has offended them, it should be the job as the staff to fix the issue. That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to alleviate the issue from the server. We are trying to have people stop blatantly harassing each other. Hell, we are even trying to get cliques to stop arguing and trolling the other people.

So yes, some of the things Grakor proposes might piss you off or might make you rage, but sometimes as a staff we have to do a bit of nip and tucking to make things look and feel nice.

So let's all just get out of this thread for a bit and go back to what we are originally here to do; Roleplay in a World of Warcraft setting.

Kay?

Kay.

[Jason]

I have a simple, catch-all solution for this problem that will likely never work!

Thesis: Refrain from posting images that you suspect might incite controversy, disgust, or offense.

Being of an uncomfortably "proper" disposition, I've been offended on multiple occasions by art or comments made on the forums via a sheer chasm of social acceptance. Nowadays, what might have been considered a grave affront a long time ago is absolutely nothing to most. Naturally, one cannot pertain all media to any one group, but modesty (PG-13, as it stands) is something to be adhered to. All I ask is to think before you post something of such a crude nature.

Pompeii artists may have done nude frescoes, but the subject matter was altogether different from what I've been seeing.

[Holynexus]

Well, Wuwwums is totally right. I haven't been here long on CotH, but in general, it's all about men objectifying women..and it's another reason we shouldn't see these in public in CotH.

But well. /nod In the end, Grakor's list is very clear, and I admit I'm amazed that this becomes an issue public enough to lead to such ends.

[c0rzilla]

I'm really not trying to debate here, or call anyone out, but I'm a tad clueless on how to speak.

To me, in my view of the world, bringing up what is "too much" in a certain depiction of something is mired to the gills in political views and social concepts. I'm not saying Grakor was knowing of this, or intended controversy, but to me the two are inseparable. And most people don't even know it. I know I didn't for the longest time. Our opinions on things like this don't exist in vacuums.

And, now I'm (and I feel others are too) confused on how to speak or reference or explain my (or their) feelings or opinions--when Grakor opened this thread for discussion--without referencing the politics CotH so despises.

I do agree with Cressy on where this thread was predictably headed, but I suppose I'm on the end that isn't so bothered by it.

Um...halp?