Risque Images and Writing on the Forums

[Grakor456]

I figured I needed a new blog post, and I felt like writing something...with a purpose, even. This post is intended to do a few things:

1. Prove that the GMs do in fact listen to PMs delivered to them, or at the very least that I do so, and act upon them accordingly.
2. Explain a bad situation and attempt to convey how we as GMs attempt to mend such a situation.
3. Brainstorm ideas to resolve this situation and how the forum policies can be better worded.
4. Get something out there 'cause I feel like writing.

A while ago, back in September, I received a PM that expressed a concern, a rather well-worded and polite concern, but one that was very clearly important to the writer. It dealt with how the writer felt that some images being posted on the boards were potentially interpreted as sexist and demeaning, too "sexualized" and risque. I will not name names (though I imagine many know at least part of what I'm talking about), and normally I wouldn't even mention this much in a public thread, but I feel that it's become a public enough issue that I should make a public comment on it, and I don't feel that this was particular intentional wrong-doing on either side, so I feel it's fine to discuss.

Now, I think some believe that this PM was ignored. It was not. When the PM was received, the GM team observed the evidence and we asked the subject in question to no longer post risque images on the board.

Unfortunately, this leads to a few problems. The first is that what goes too far will vary from person to person, and what is acceptable and not will also vary. This leads to a bit of a problem when trying to place a concrete ruling on what is "too risque" or "too sexual" for our boards. The forum rule is that we like to keep things PG-13, but folks from different parts of the world and with different upbringings will have different views on what is acceptable and what is not.

Let me make a few things clear, however: I am not anti-ERP. I am not anti-fetish. As a rule, CotH is the same, even if we do have a few GMs who joke about ERP and playfully tease folks who do so. In RP it's fine as long as you keep it private and everyone involved is okay with it. However, we don't want folks going too far with public things because we do have minors that play, and some folks get weirded out by too much talk of sex, or talk of certain fetishes. The same also applies to our forums. If I think it'd be inappropriate for a ten year-old to see it, I generally don't think it's a good idea to have on the forums.

In general, it's fine that you have your fetishes. You can draw what you like, write what dirty fan-fiction you like, and in private RP that you're some tentacle monster that loves Japanese schoolgirls. (Or schoolboys. Whatever gets your rocks off.) Just don't do it here, as this isn't the place for it.

Now, what constitutes as "too far"? That's the problem. I'm going to list a few thoughts I have, but don't take this as an "official list" of what's good and what's not. This is just my opinion and likely to be brief to get discussion going, and likely subject to change as far as the "official list" goes:

Too Far:
1. Detailed descriptions of sexual organs in RP. (And, of course, detailed nudity in art.) This includes female breasts/nipples. And usually butts too.
2. Blatantly over-blown/over-sized sexual organs in art. This, again, includes female breasts. Even when covered, as this goes into over-sexualized depictions or bodies only found in porn.

Not Too Far:
1. "Cartoon nudity." If I'm not seeing anything, I'm not seeing anything. Such a style is usually used for cuteness rather than an attempt to arouse.
2. "Sexy" characters, with all appropriate naughty bits covered, with believable proportions. A certain amount of sexualizing is just going to happen in art, and there's nothing wrong with that.
3. Non-described nudity in RP. Sometimes nudity is funny, that's hard to deny. The classic scene of someone dreaming about going to class naked, anyone? As long as nothing is described or seen, that's fine.

I may add to this list later. For now, what does everyone think?

[c0rzilla]

...Not sure what to say other than this post is appreciated! I think my clicking of the "Like" button covers it. I could go into a few fetishes and how some are (in my opinion) rightly more disturbing and inherently wrong than others, but not sure if I am allowed. And, I can see that spiraling quickly out of control.

But, yeah. Appreciation!

lol my post ended up being a total lie

[Reigen]

I've always been of the opinion that so long as it's clothed, it's fine. To me, nudity is nudity no matter what form it comes in. So long as there isn't anything overly detailed behind clothing, such as nipples showing though the cloth, I really see no issue with something as far as the body goes.

As for poses, there are very sexually suggestive poses that I've seen in cartoon nudity as well as normal nudity. There is really no difference there, suggestive is suggestive. Images such as a girl with a dripping Popsicle in her mouth are indeed too far, no matter how clothed the image is and the same can be said to two cartoon nudes hugging each other with ones legs wrapped around the others waist. Both are crossing the line in my opinion.

I get uneasy when I see nudes at all, to be honest. I can't even look at my own drawings that I did in college with a nude model. I don't like it, it makes me feel weird and it's something I'm extremely embarrassed about. At at the same time, I'm fine looking at things that are over-sized so long as it's covered.

Perhaps a possible solution is to have people host 'too far' images on a different site and offer a link in their thread and post a -clear warning- that people might get offended. This way they can still show off what they wish, but it will only be the fault of the clicker if they get offended. The tasteful stuff can keep being posted on the forums, so that the art can still be enjoyed by all and those who get offended only have themselves to blame if they click a link.

[As in, the link is in the first post, and when they update to that site, they say "Hey, I updated something to that site that might be too far, come take a look if you are not offended by such things and are old enough to handle it"]

I know I tend to avoid one of the treads which has nudes in them because viewing it makes me uneasy, yet another I can visit just fine. The first has some good images so long as it's not nude, and I don't want to stop looking, but at the same time it post things I do not wish to see.

[Wuvvums]

This was deemed appropriate for a game rated T for teen, which was 13 and up. This was put out by Nintendo which markets itself to family and children.

[Saiyuu]

Just my 2 cents, since everyone does this nowadays. It's a quite good idea to set a list of what you can post and what you can't. It might come to be helpful in the future to both newcomers and old posters, but there go my thoughts...:

2. Blatantly over-blown/over-sized sexual organs in art. This, again, includes female breasts. Even when covered, as this goes into over-sexualized depictions or bodies only found in porn.

1. "Cartoon nudity." If I'm not seeing anything, I'm not seeing anything. Such a style is usually used for cuteness rather than an attempt to arouse.

On cartoon nudity:



Who doesn't remember this one creature? It's a cartoon female! One of the first ones we've seen on Looney Tunes as a feminine character with clear and obvious feminine traits (curves and whatnot...). It's cartoon, again. So... What led Warner Bros to add clothes on her? It wasn't needed. Bugs Bunny rarely ever wore any clothes, why would a female rabbit need them? Simple answer: Dem curves. She has breasts and she has butt (or rear or whatever one chooses to call it). So, saying Cartoon Nudity is fine is a huge dose of hypocrisy. Really, if you go that way and say "It's cartoon, it is alright to be naked", you might as well allow nudity art. Mostly because the said cartoon character has the same feminine traits as a female from anime or traditional art have. Breasts? Check. Rear? Check. Curves? Check. So... Really, other than a style choice, why should cartoon nudity be treated any differently than normal nudity? We're still seeing the same perky bits and feminine aspects. If saying "because anime/traditional is closer to reality" would be an excuse, then would we also be allowed to draw chibi-like drawings naked?


On "Blatantly over-blown/over-sized sexual organs in art":

It's truth. Males have oversized things sometimes, so do females. If forbidding one thing such "large breasts" were to happen, then one should also forbid "overly muscular" from being drawn. If not, -then- it would be a clearly sexist concept. Why can males have oversized proportions while females don't? Just because of the gender difference?



Well, those are my 2 cents...


Also, Midna hardly has any feminine traits other than her hips. The said "Cartoon Nudity" seen here is nowhere close to what Nintendo portrays on Midna.

[Grakor456]

I don't pretend, however, that all instances of "Cartoon Nudity" are alright. You can definitely go too far with it if you try. I think there's a pretty big difference between, say, drawing Daffy Duck and drawing two characters in a sexual position, even if you don't see any specifics.

Edit for Saiyuu: I'm not getting the link here. Breasts are a sexual organ. Muscles are not, even if many folks find them attractive. The closest approximation to banning heavily-muscled males would be banning curvacious females, which isn't the same thing as saying no to, for example, breasts the size of pumpkins.

[Reigen]

PG-13 movies also have a growing number of adult scenes in them, sometimes depicting acts of sexual nature. So long as it's 'under covers' is seems to be okay. It is, as always a matter of personal opinion. Some may think something is okay while others do not. It's hard to judge in such a matter when different people have different views.

Heck, I turn away when two people kiss in a movie. It embarrasses me for whatever reason. [I can't watch romance movies. It's why I hated transformers 3, too much romance.]

[Though, I've always seen the black part of that character as a covering, considering around it shoulders it almost looks like it was a jacket. Then again, never played the game.]

[Saiyuu]

for example, breasts the size of pumpkins.

breasts the size of pumpkins.

pumpkins.

Spoiler:

Good thing we don't have those around here... Pumpkins are large things indeed.

[Rigley]

On the flip side this is a character from the Sonic series of games, which as far as I knew had this kind of get-up in all depictions of her.

I don't intend to argue at length about this sort of thing, but c'mon guys. This isn't exactly a complex thing to talk about. It's pretty straight forward that the picture I've posted and a nude are different things.

[ImagenAshyun]

A couple "Not Too Far", I'll add, which I have observed in RP and OOC at times:

1.) Different orientations from heterosexuality. I am, by no means, saying people are free to RP robot-humping deviants, but I remember seeing complaints about, let's say, two men kissing while in public or an individual swinging both ways. You know this one, Grak.

2.) Different romantic groups from monogamy. Trolls practice polygyny, and you can argue that polyamory would be allowed among social groups that do not practice formal marriage, especially among races that are facing extinction. I'm talking purely from a sociological perspective.


Too far!

1.) Posting of images and linked work that depicts rape, molestation, and/or sexualized violence. "Rape", in this case, is implied sexual acts with no given consent.

2.) Overtly graphic violence in posted links or art. I'm talking more than just blood and bruising, I mean the display of organs and bone, organic bits, and so forth.



That's all I can think of for now. As admittedly perverted as I am, I'm fully aware of what is allowable in COTH and what is not.

[Wuvvums]

I'll see you a Lola and raise you a Slappy the Squirrel

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79kr6ha6pnA[/youtube]

A lot can be said about Lola bunny, actually, or the idea of clothing female furries. Sonic does it as well which is such a double standard, but then again they were characters like Amy made solely as a girlfriend or Rouge made entirely to test breast physics.

I think it's a double standard taken a lot in cartoons and video games at times. I don't think it's a right one either, and it seems half the time they are usually there just to fill secondary roles to a main male character. Just saying, characters like the one above I found to be rather sexist that they felt the need to do that.

[Psychyn]

Perhaps a possible solution is to have people host 'too far' images on a different site and offer a link in their thread and post a -clear warning- that people might get offended. This way they can still show off what they wish, but it will only be the fault of the clicker if they get offended. The tasteful stuff can keep being posted on the forums, so that the art can still be enjoyed by all and those who get offended only have themselves to blame if they click a link.

Coth 18+? I'd visit that. (Joke)

While I've missed the entire.. subject at hand when it happened, and got no clue really where this came from. I'm just going to toss my opinion out, which I perhaps am alone in.

I honestly.. Do not care what I see on the forums. Suggestive poses, suggestive pictures, nudity. Eh, I'm twenty. I'm mature enough to handle it, but can understand that some get irked by it. For past writings I've simply tossed an warning that people shouldn't read if they aren't comfortable with some subjects, perhaps something like that could be made mandatory alongside a spoiler tag.

"Warning, picture below may contain.. etc", that in my opinion should be enough for people to ask themselves "Do I really want to see something containing ...?" if yes, they click the spoiler and voila. If they dislike what they see, they brought it upon themselves. If not, they can easily slide to the next post/thread/forum part.

I do believe CotH puts itself forward as mature community, in rules, guidelines interactions and so on. For me, that means stuff like that can be expected despite not everyone being over eighteen. So yes, all I can suggest that lies within the realm of possibilities; Make a mandatory spoiler/warning option for anything what may be 'unsafe' or 'sensitive' material.

Or, another suggestion I can offer which I have no clue if it's possible or not;

Add a picture category, with an option within user's profile. Anything that may be sensitive, unsafe, or related goes into that category and when that picture is linked, gives two result;

Either result 1; People have checked the option "I want to see 'sensitive' content (or how you want to name it) and the picture shows up.
Result 2; People have unchecked the option and get a message "Picture was marked as unsafe/sensitive (or what not).

Then, in either case. People have spend a moment of thought whether or not they want to see said content, and if by accident still click on it, are still shielded from said content.

However, that probably is easier said then done.

[c0rzilla]

On large breasts: There is a huge difference between depictions of fertility goddesses and Earth Mothers in ancient and modern art, and well...some other things that I don't think I can link here.

This is a good read, and I think pertinent and a good description as to why a certain portrayal of naughty bits disturb some people.

Edit for Saiyuu: I'm not getting the link here. Breasts are a sexual organ. Muscles are not, even if many folks find them attractive. The closest approximation to banning heavily-muscled males would be banning curvacious females, which isn't the same thing as saying no to, for example, breasts the size of pumpkins.

Breasts are not sexual. They are a secondary sexual characteristic that might be sensitive, might look good (sexy), but they are made for nursing children. Not reproduction like other things. Their purpose has been blown out of proportion by many factors in society.

Good lord I can't keep up with edits.

[Saiyuu]

Perhaps a possible solution is to have people host 'too far' images on a different site and offer a link in their thread and post a -clear warning- that people might get offended. This way they can still show off what they wish, but it will only be the fault of the clicker if they get offended. The tasteful stuff can keep being posted on the forums, so that the art can still be enjoyed by all and those who get offended only have themselves to blame if they click a link.

Coth 18+? I'd visit that. (Joke)

While I've missed the entire.. subject at hand when it happened, and got no clue really where this came from. I'm just going to toss my opinion out, which I perhaps am alone in.

I honestly.. Do not care what I see on the forums. Suggestive poses, suggestive pictures, nudity. Eh, I'm twenty. I'm mature enough to handle it, but can understand that some get irked by it. For past writings I've simply tossed an warning that people shouldn't read if they aren't comfortable with some subjects, perhaps something like that could be made mandatory alongside a spoiler tag.

"Warning, picture below may contain.. etc", that in my opinion should be enough for people to ask themselves "Do I really want to see something containing ...?" if yes, they click the spoiler and voila. If they dislike what they see, they brought it upon themselves. If not, they can easily slide to the next post/thread/forum part.

I do believe CotH puts itself forward as mature community, in rules, guidelines interactions and so on. For me, that means stuff like that can be expected despite not everyone being over eighteen. So yes, all I can suggest that lies within the realm of possibilities; Make a mandatory spoiler/warning option for anything what may be 'unsafe' or 'sensitive' material.

Or, another suggestion I can offer which I have no clue if it's possible or not;

Add a picture category, with an option within user's profile. Anything that may be sensitive, unsafe, or related goes into that category and when that picture is linked, gives two result;

Either result 1; People have checked the option "I want to see 'sensitive' content (or how you want to name it) and the picture shows up.
Result 2; People have unchecked the option and get a message "Picture was marked as unsafe/sensitive (or what not).

Then, in either case. People have spend a moment of thought whether or not they want to see said content, and if by accident still click on it, are still shielded from said content.

However, that probably is easier said then done.

Didn't you know? When you see a warning saying you might see something offensive and that you don't like, you automatically have to click on that spoiler tag, just to indulge yourself to see something you dislike. Happens quite often...

On large breasts: There is a huge difference between depictions of fertility goddesses and Earth Mothers in ancient and modern art, and well...some other things that I don't think I can link here.

This is a good read, and I think pertinent and a good description as to why a certain portrayal of naughty bits disturb some people.

Edit for Grakor: Breasts are not sexual. They are a secondary sexual characteristic that might sensitive, might look good (sexy), but they are made for nursing children. Not reproduction like other things. Their purpose has been blown out of proportion by many factors in society.

Things that can't be linked here, yet are brought here even though they are in a completely unrelated site. It's like... Seeing a ball of smelly socks in another neighborhood and bringing it here. To me it sounds much like self-torture.

[Holynexus]

I should agree with this - ERP in general embarasses me.

But eh, if I have a female character of mine kiss another female character in public, with no details - a female dwarf - then I won't back off because some people are "offended". Whether they are offended at a same-sex pairing or offended to see dwarves kissing. (No, really. I got people flaring in my face for engaging a straight Dwarf into a relationship in retail). I just WON'T. Though ICly I know there can be a lot of implications, OOCly I won't stop because some holier-than-thou person goes flaring on my back out of disgust. I know ICly is different, though.

Now if the tongue begins to stick and do unseen stuff..if it ever happens it'll be taken to party, obviously.