Risque Images and Writing on the Forums

[TwilightDisciple]

Oh, this thread is interesting because... Well, I've seen your fics, Grakor, and I have no shame in some of the things I draw.

As someone who works in a field where we have to deal with censorship either due to our own choices or executive meddling, it's very interesting to see how people handle nudity, as well as having introspective moments with myself of coming from being unable to look at nudes, to being completely unfazed by non-sexual nudes.

What I always note is how people perceive things; in the end, that is what determines how a work will be received no matter what the artist originally intended. I can write pages about this very topic and cite a world of examples, but I'll keep it simple and sexy.

As a feminist, I'm more bothered by when sexuality is put into places where it shouldn't be- to sell a product, as opposed to being in places where it should be - media exclusively designed to titillate or illustrate some sex appeal that's contextual. When I see people who make pinup art, I either enjoy it, or, if it's just not appealing to me, I move on. Pinup is an artform that's designed to titillate. I don't get the idea that the pinup artists- we have a few in our community, myself included- are trying to be anything else; they're drawing sexy stuff. WoW itself is full of sexisim in it's gender dimorphism with the races alone; a joke but also a hot issue of such things within the multimedia/game dev community. But enough about sexism. We're just discussing sexuality, right?

I get bothered more by people who create overtly sexual things and do the whole porn =/= art argument about their work. They think that art is clean, deep, and meaningful that you can share with everyone, that it is nice and friendly, that it is created using hours and hours of blood, sweat, and tears...

...They clearly didn't do their homework.
Links contain what one would consider "Artistic Nudes:"

Spoiler:

http://www.arts-wallpapers.com/nude_art/...art800.jpg
http://www.arts-wallpapers.com/nude_art/...art800.jpg
http://www.chinaoilpainting.com/upload1/...773554.jpg

These classical works, which would be considered "tasteful nudes" weren't create to hang in the living room like they would be now. Oh no, god no. Wealthy men often commissioned these for the rooms in their houses that were "men only" or private chambers. If not them, high class prostitutes and brothels wanted these. Aside from the church, these clients usually kept the Old Masters in work. There was a healthy enough attitude towards nudity when they were commissioned, but the comely nature of the figures in the paintings makes it pretty obvious what it's for.

Now, one might argue because of their figures or because of the 'artistic quality' that this is fine and not at all sexist and realistic in depiction, even though their commissioners wanted to purchase a (picture of a) female for their private chambers, and that the ideal female body at the time of the Romance, Renaissance, and Baroque was that of a well-fed fifteen year old girl.

Where am I getting at with all this? Well, I'm not saying "don't get offended by sexualised art." The best part of art is the reaction and seeing what people interpret from it. But, it makes me wonder if, in 1,000 years provided the sacred supervolcano hasn't wiped us humans all out, people will be delicately preserving those skanky resin catgirl statues they unearthed in some factory in Japan and trying to make out all what it means. Who's to say Venus of Willendorf wasn't abducted by the local pervert between rituals for a good and creepy time out back?

Edit: Saw the, uh, heated things. Just wanted to note I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, just trying to add to a healthy discussion.

[Saiyuu]

For some, the very portrayal of a flirtatious female is an offense to all things feminist. Bear in mind, though, that the feminist movement comes in waves with different ideals. Even a woman deciding to become a mother instead of a worker can be offensive.

This is why Grakor made the initial post, though, to define what is allowable in COTH and what is not, in concrete, non-subjective terms. Yet this has turned into a debate of sexualizing women and feminine ideas. I highly recommend this tones down, please.

If you want to debate political ideas, take it out of here. If you have little to contribute on server policy and defining what should and what shouldn't be allowed, then go someplace else.

I second this...

I think there were discussions enough on how CotH is becoming sexist and whatnot. I don't think this is the topic to discuss such things. If you want a discussion about the points behind feminism, sexism and whatnot, it'd be wiser to make a thread for people interested in reading or discussing about said topic.

[Harmonic]

I have to say, I remember this big discussion happening just as I was leaving the last time, and must have been a topic of discussion on and off every since then, or at least I'm assuming so. I've seen a lot of points here, and while it's entirely understandable that people don't like one thing, but like another...

I have to say, it must be getting hard for anyone involved in all of this stuff to keep it straight. I have seen one side talking about freedom of art, another talking about opression of women, and others saying I AGREE or I DISAGREE with either side.

In reality, I don't think any of this crap is helping, and I think it's great Grakor is trying to make some outlines for what is acceptable and what isn't here. Bottom line is, not everyone is gonna be pleased with whatever is determined, but that's very typical with -any- descision. Honestly, I'm quite sad to see that this is still a focal arguement here on CoTH.

In my personal opinion, I think people on both sides need to think some things through... mostly, do we have to deem -everything- involving women as offensive? As a counterpoint, does this mean we should keep pushing the envelope to see what people that -do- take offense will eventually get angry over?


It's becoming more than silly, and just... pointless. It's sad Grakor feels he has to hold hands and say "This is okay, this isn't." It should be common sense, and there should also be a lot less complaining from either side.




And, don't feel offended by my posts guys, this is just me talkin'. It's an icy slope when you get feminism and art involved, because realisticly if you put enough thought into something, you can twist it to how it affects you in accordance to your gender, race, ---feelings, just whatever. I mean, I could reasonably saying that if someone posted a picture of an overweight bearded man fixing a computer, that I'd be offended because it would be a mis-representation of me.

For the same token... we do need some restraint here. I haven't seen what's going on, but if people are posting giant bare breasts and bulging whatevers, we should probably take a look and say... "Is this -too- much for PG-13." I realize this is harder to do when actual nudity is not involved, but for the same token we've got to say where is the line drawn?



At this point, I'm probably rambling. It's not meant to be offensive, but more a neutral standpoint since I"m coming fresh into this. I -do not- envy the mods for coming to a descision on this stuff... it's so touchy.

[ImagenAshyun]

Regardless of what we will agree one, someone will have some dissent. For this reason, I will repost some rules:

#1: Respect.

Surely, someone will be offended by a DD-breasted woman in a bikini eating a vanilla-flavored popsicle while covered in unevenly applied suntan lotion.... and at the same time, someone will be offended by Rosie the Riveter taking time off from the home to contribute to the war because it means she's leaving children at home starving and unattended, she's not having her hair down like she's supposed to, and she's not wearing a skirt. Everyone has different ideals on what is appropriate for women and what isn't, and everyone will RP different kinds of women of different walks in life. Please be respectful of the choices in portrayals of character within certain gender roles, especially women. Not every woman is going to chose the workforce over her family. Not every woman will give up high heels in favor of tennis shoes. Respect those choices, especially if made by a woman herself.


#2: Tolerance.

As with the example above, not everyone will tolerate either the bikini woman or Rosie the Riveteer (for you non-Americans, I'm talking this chick, who was our symbol of women in social and political power equal to men in war and the workforce). HOWEVER, there are individuals who either favor one or the other, favor both, or just don't care. Do not, for the love of all that is holy, sacred, and sane, harass other players for favoring a characterization over another. Offensive portrayals shall come to the attention of GMs if it is against a general socially accepted as a social whole: thus the purpose of discussion in this thread. Mothers are okay with us. Bikini girls are okay with us. Worker women in economic and social power are okay with us. Completely nude women wrestling with another nude woman while riding a mechanical bull atop of a pool of mud is absolutely not okay.

Remember that consent and permission is key with enjoyable RP and forum discussion and display. If other players are not okay with it, it's likely not allowed.


ALSO: Please bear in mind the double-standard. Is it not okay to do this with a woman but absolutely okay with a man? What about the other way around. Consider that in your suggestions of what is and what is not allowed. I have seen complaints against players who chose to play men in dresses yet they're okay with a woman in a tux. Consider that.

[c0rzilla]

Immy, if that post were mine the last lines would be in the biggest font available and in the reddest red.

Though, a reminder. That, I would think, doesn't apply to offensive "trap" characters.

[ImagenAshyun]

If there is anything that offends me more than my wrestling nude women example, it's double standards. I have two characters as my example: Diwaata and Kapre. Diwaata is a strong woman who is not afraid to get dirty as far as combat goes, prefers to work rather than have a family, and at the same time enjoys some harmless but comical vanity (/e flips her hair). Kapre, on the other hand, is a more low-key character who prefers a passive lifestyle of staying behind a desk, taking care of children, and working at home.

The woman is the one fighting in the frontlines while the man is staying at home taking care of his family. People will be offended if this is reversed. People will be offended if this remains played straight ("The man isn't being manly enough!"). Where can I go with that?

It's just food for thought.

[TwilightDisciple]

Though, a reminder. That, I would think, doesn't apply to offensive "trap" characters.

I would think this is mostly an all-or-nothing situation save for the case of certain contexts. Using myself as an example, I've played 'trap' characters who were actual transvestites and set out depicting them in a believable and non-fetishy manner. As someone who has friends who work as drag queens, live as transvestites, or are transgendered, I wouldn't want to depict them in a degrading manner via my roleplay. I guess what I'm trying to ask is if you could elaborate on what would be considered an 'offensive' trap.

[c0rzilla]

If I'm allowed?

A character that passes as another gender or sex and acts overtly sexual just for a gross-out factor. A joke. A cliche. A statement that says anything outside the gender norm is a deviant to ridicule.

[TwilightDisciple]

If I'm allowed?

A character that passes as another gender or sex and acts overtly sexual just for a gross-out factor. A joke. A cliche. A statement that says anything outside the gender norm is a deviant to ridicule.

OK, I can see how that's offensive. That likely falls under homophobic/transgenderphobic, too.

[Wuvvums]

I also feel like anything associated with feminity is seen as unfavorable and only acceptable for women because they're seen as the weaker sex. I also feel like it's why people are more disapproving of male pregnancy. Yes, I know it's a biological impossibility, but I don't think that's the only reason why it's disliked.

Also I see little problem in Kapre being the nurturer. :3

[Jason]

...I don't understand how we got from topic A) Grakor's Post to...this. I've seen very little sexism on the forum SAVE for a particular source, accounting for most of what I've seen. I don't see how this is relevant.

[Xigo]

Guys. All this can be solved by just using common sense.

If you're going to post something, ask yourself this. Would you show it to a ten year old child with his/her parent standing over his/her shoulder? If the answer is no, don't post it.

EDIT: And before we get into it, please don't argue semantics. You know what I damn well mean.

[Saiyuu]

I shall name this server Conquest of the Genders. It's a war out there, friends.

[Jason]

I shall name this server Conquest of the Genders. It's a war out there, friends.

I have to question whether you are trying to muck this topic up more, or are just very clueless to the other posts.

[Saiyuu]

I'm trying to lighten up the mood, actually... Sad thing no one can stop taking things so seriously.

As a reminder, this is a game community. We have our differences, yes, we have our arguments, yes. It doesn't make the whole thing a social game as well. Letting it go up your mind so you think everything is meant to be an offense is a rather complicated issue.

I'm sure this thing will last forever at this rate.