Priest-Necromancers?

[Zhaei]

I semi-agree with most of your points, LostStranger.

Personally I would say that we shouldn't limit ourselves so quickly to in-game spells. The Arcane is not the same as the Arcane tree that Mages have in game. Sure, they use attacks of Arcane magic, but they also have Transmutation, Conjuration, Illusion spells. These things are all offshoots of Arcane- just as frost and fire are as well. So is necromancy.

don't see any reason to give mages exclusive access to death knight powers.

Death Knights use the arcane, through rune-magic. Runes are just a way to get to Arcane power. Honestly, Death Knights are just armoured Necromancers with a sword. It's the other way around.

you realize that most of the older orcish warlocks used to be shaman, right?

But they don't use Shamanism to harness Warlock magic. They simply changed what they did.


I will continue to stand by the Arcane vs Divine argument, because they work like a venn diagram. There are some things that are exclusive to each respectively, and there is some stuff that overlaps. From where you draw the magic isn't important, it's what you do with it. No, Shadow Priests can't use necromancy. There isn't any lore supporting it. But they can manipulate shadow magic, just as Shadowmages can. It's how you achieve it.

[Dae]

I'd say it would come down to whose IC skillset would best reflect the necromantic process. If raising the dead uses techniques much like that of a mage, then it should be a variant class for someone who is skilled in those endeavors.
I wouldn't have much an issue with, say, a priest able to control the risen dead, but actually making a ghoul isn't just something you pray really hard to make happen, is it?

[CappnRob]

I don't see what the danger of multiclassing here, is. A priest who goes necromancer isn't a priest IC anymore, except maybe a death priest. They -lose- all their priesty powers IC, save the ones that aren't necromancer-relevant (so no holy healing, HP buffs, what have you. Just shadow-magic zapping and diseases).

I mean, we don't let mage-necromancers go around using the entire gamut of mage spells as well as necromancer ones, do we?

[flammos200]

I say no to Priest-Necromancers.

Divine magic brings someone back to life/unlife fully. Despite the fact that in the d20, Priests could raise undead.

Besides, Necromancy is a school of Arcane. A forbidden one at that.

The CoTH wiki(Which has the Necromancer and Runemaster pages now CANON) surmises it best:

"Given Necromancy is but a specialization of Arcane, all Necromancers are Mages. If the race of choice doesn't have a mage available as a class, then Warlock will be the next best thing."

That's all.

[Zarquon]

It is a falsehood that Necromancy is entirely arcane. In fact, the origin of Necromancy is religious in nature, stemming from Orc necrolytes that were neither warlocks (All warlocks are in the Shadow Council, Necrolytes aren't) nor Mages. While Necromancy might count as a School of Magic, even Shamans and Troll Priests have been known to practice it. Below are quotes to support my above statements:

Practitioners of the orcish religions, these binders of souls command the black powers that hold control over the earth. Linked into the dominions of the lower planes, necrolytes have power over all things dark and evil, including the raising of fallen warriors to create armies of the undead. Through ceremonies performed at their Temples, they learn to warp the essence of shadow to use for their advantage.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Necrolyte

During the First War, the main purpose of the necrolytes was to bolster the orcish forces with undead troops, similar to the necromancers of the Scourge decades later. While Necrolytes did possess other magical abilities, they were quite paltry when compared to those of the other orcish warlocks.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Necrolyte

And these are the parents of Necromancy, and distinctly are not warlocks. Warlocks do NOT have power over the earth. The most distinctive trait of a Warlock is his ability to summon demons, not raise undeads.

The origin of modern necromancers dates back to the First War, when Gul'dan's necrolytes developed the ability to raise corpses to serve as skeleton warriors for the Horde. However, necromancy itself seems to have originated with the demonic Nathrezim race of the Burning Legion, who were the first known beings to raise undead creatures from Night Elven corpses (as seen in the War of the Ancients novel).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Necromancy

Necrolytes, who are essentially Dark Shamans, were the originators of Necromancy for the mortal races, though the Nathrezim were the first known beings to ever use it. Thus, the idea that Mages and Mages alone can use Necromancy is rather skewed, think you not? Necromancy might have been further enhanced by the Mages of the Scourge, or more accurately, by Kel'Thuzad because he was an Archmage - but if you consider who actually used it first, then Mages can only be seen to have made Necromancy more a developed Science than an actual Art.

And Troll Shadow Priests can use Necromancy in lore as well...

In World of Warcraft, witch doctors are semi-playable as troll priests (with shadowy magic, ritualistic chants and spiritual guidence) or shamans (with wards being replaced by totems).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Witch_doctor

Zalazane, betrayed them. The witch doctor, somehow learning the secrets of undeath, took his people by surprise using his zombies and other minions.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Echo_Isles

In combat, Zalazane begins the fight by summoning undead.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Zalazane

It is fine if the administrators of this server do not want Shadow Priests or Dark Shamans being Necromancers, but I just want to point out that the possibility is there and there are legitimate lore sources behind such.

[Sol]

To the best of my understanding, there is only one lore source that explicitly claims that necromancy exists as a school of arcane magic alone, and that can be found here.

I adore the Schools of Arcane Magic in-game books and I'm the first to recommend them to people looking into rolling a mage character, but one has to consider that they are written in-universe by in-universe scholars and should not be taken as an overarching authority on the subjects they discuss, especially on subjects that they know admittedly very little about (i.e. necromancy).

Between certain troll mystics, Auchenai necromancers (who I'll maintain are corrupted anchorites and not arcanists until shown convincing evidence otherwise;, the Auchenai were monks who lived in a sacred temple, and so I doubt they just happened to have grimoires of dark lore lying around they could read into when it struck their fancies) and the intriguing example of orcish necrolytes Zarquon raised (and relatedly, these guys), I think there's sufficient evidence to consider the possibility of 'divine necromancy' not just being a facet of the d20.

I understand the current policy on necromancers is that they're to utilise mages and warlocks alone as their base OOC classes depending on race, but I still think this is a debate we can have, and it's a very interesting one at that.

[Zarquon]

The entire basis of the Arcane against the Divine is rather flawed in the first place. I really find the complete divorce between the two and thus the idea of a 'Divine Shadow' and 'Arcane Shadow' to be as ludicrous as the idea of a 'Divine Frost' and an 'Arcane Frost'. I can also prove that a Shadow Priest can use Frost.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Shadowfrost

Shadowfrost refers to a type of magic wielded by Priests. It means, alike Frostfire, that a spell can do either of two types of spell damage. As the name implies, Shadowfrost does either Shadow or Frost spell damage. Shadowfrost is special as it combines the strengths of these two elements - if an enemy is invulnerable to Shadow, it will deal Frost damage and vice versa.

[Rosencrat]

Words

For the most part, Zar, the evidence in your argument is pretty much in support of Arcane-only Necromancers.

Practitioners of the orcish religions, these binders of souls command the black powers that hold control over the earth. Linked into the dominions of the lower planes, necrolytes have power over all things dark and evil, including the raising of fallen warriors to create armies of the undead. Through ceremonies performed at their Temples, they learn to warp the essence of shadow to use for their advantage.

Just as an aside before I dig into this: You have to understand that this lore is drawn from the Warcraft games, specifically the very first one. While the lore in those games is still canon, you will have to take much of what they say with a grain of salt, since elements were bent to explain game mechanic or written to be grandiose and impressive.

In this case, the words 'ceremonies' and 'temple' shouldn't be taken to assume organized religion or faith.

During the First War, the main purpose of the necrolytes was to bolster the orcish forces with undead troops, similar to the necromancers of the Scourge decades later. While Necrolytes did possess other magical abilities, they were quite paltry when compared to those of the other orcish warlocks.

This actually is more in favor of Necrolytes being lesser warlocks than anything else. Even says they have similarities to Warlock. And yes, while they can other abilities of the class they originated from...Well, we'll touch that later.

The origin of modern necromancers dates back to the First War, when Gul'dan's necrolytes developed the ability to raise corpses to serve as skeleton warriors for the Horde. However, necromancy itself seems to have originated with the demonic Nathrezim race of the Burning Legion, who were the first known beings to raise undead creatures from Night Elven corpses (as seen in the War of the Ancients novel).

I'll be honest, this quote and your follow-up argument confused me. Nathrezim have no religion and draw their power from the Twisting Nether, a font of corrupt Arcane that we call Fel. They would not be able to teach faith even if they wanted to.


In the end, your argument boils down to the Necrolytes being the mortal fathers of Necromancer and claiming that the Necrolytes are Faith-based priests who wield religious powers.

While it is possible that they can have other skills (Shamanism being the most likely) it is very unlikely that orcs -the harbingers of Necromancer- would be using faith-based magic. Why? Because that's not how the orc's faith works. And it never has.

Each race draws power from what they worship. Orc religion is based on worship of the ancestor spirits and the earth. The human religion, and the religion of many other races, worship the Light/Shadow. Humans gain power from the Light and become priests. Orcs gain power from the earth and spirits and can become shaman or Spirit Walkers.

There is a reason why Orcs, over four consecutive expansions, have managed to gain every class -besides- Priest, Paladin and Druid: They don't Worship the Light or Shadow and never have.

If all Necromancers can trace their ancestry down to the Necrolytes, and the Necrolytes are from a race who has no history of every having a priesthood based on Light/Shadow, it's rather logical to say that Necromancy was never faith-based to begin with.

Troll Voodoo

Ah, now this is an interesting one. Trolls worship a faith completely seperate from the Light/Shadow that most races enjoy...The Loa.

The Loa is a complex thing that I myself don't fully understand. All I shall say to this is that it is the closest a priest will ever get to being a Necromancer through the manipulation of spirits. And even then, because of fairness sake, we will lump them in with the others to avoid confusion.

Auchenai

You won't escape this either, Sol!

When I was creating my Auchenai Necromancer, I created her first as a priest. I thought it was logical, just like some of the proponents here for Necromancer Priests do.

When Krilari informed me of the rule I reacted with stubborn resignation. It didn't seem logical! Not one bit!

But after doing some research, the Auchenai prove the rule just as much as the Necrolytes do.

Let's look at the denizens that make up the Auchenai sect.

Before their corruption, the Auchenai priesthood's job was to calm the spirits and ease them into the next stage of life. Those are what the Soulpriests were adept at.

After their corruption, however, they began to meddle and corrupt the spirits, altering them to fit their will. They tortured the undead, creating enslaved spirits and angered skeletons to do their bidding.

That is something unique to the Auchenai, however, and is a secret known only to their members.

Now, many people point to the Auchenai Necromancers as support for priest Necromancers. And in the process they forget that the Auchenai Necromancers' arsenal of abilities are all Warlock spells.



So, to summarize for all you lazy people: The only priests that would logically be allowed to play Necromancers are Troll Voodoo practitioners and Draenei Soulpriests. And even then they are restricted by what they can do (Only torture spirits) and what races can play them, which is paltry compared to the generous arsenal of corruption, perversion and manipulation allowed Arcane Necromancers.

If you want to argue a variant called Soul Priest, be my guest. That's a separate matter that I won't weigh in on. But Necromancers should be left to the Mages.

EDIT: Just to give a personal opinion, I would not like to see a Soul Priest variant exist. It wanders into the realm of fanon, and when you wander into the realm of fanon you are in dangerous and silly waters.

[Zarquon]

In the end, your argument boils down to the Necrolytes being the mortal fathers of Necromancer and claiming that the Necrolytes are Faith-based priests who wield religious powers.

While it is possible that they can have other skills (Shamanism being the most likely) it is very unlikely that orcs -the harbingers of Necromancer- would be using faith-based magic. Why? Because that's not how the orc's faith works. And it never has.

Each race draws power from what they worship. Orc religion is based on worship of the ancestor spirits and the earth. The human religion, and the religion of many other races, worship the Light/Shadow. Humans gain power from the Light and become priests. Orcs gain power from the earth and spirits and can become shaman or Spirit Walkers.

There is a reason why Orcs, over four consecutive expansions, have managed to gain every class -besides- Priest, Paladin and Druid: They don't Worship the Light or Shadow and never have.

If all Necromancers can trace their ancestry down to the Necrolytes, and the Necrolytes are from a race who has no history of every having a priesthood based on Light/Shadow, it's rather logical to say that Necromancy was never faith-based to begin with.

You do realize that Orc Pyremasters, a fundamental element to Orcish religion and cultural make-up, are able to raise the undead and speak to spirits, right?

And there is a fallacy of logical argument there...

I placed an argument that A means that B works, rather than your stance of C. You are arguing with this statement...

If all Necromancers can trace their ancestry down to the Necrolytes, and the Necrolytes are from a race who has no history of every having a priesthood based on Light/Shadow, it's rather logical to say that Necromancy was never faith-based to begin with.

...that because C is true, A is not. Don't you think that is a fallacy of logic?

[LostStranger]

Personally I would say that we shouldn't limit ourselves so quickly to in-game spells. The Arcane is not the same as the Arcane tree that Mages have in game. Sure, they use attacks of Arcane magic, but they also have Transmutation, Conjuration, Illusion spells. These things are all offshoots of Arcane- just as frost and fire are as well. So is necromancy.

Besides, Necromancy is a school of Arcane. A forbidden one at that.

Spoiler:

Even in Dungeons & Dragons, where these terms originate, the spells in such categories as illusion, transmutation, necromancy, and enchantment, were not exclusive to the wizard/sorcerer spell list.

Clerics could cast those spells too. In fact, clerics of evil gods were one of the foremost generators of undead.

Of course, this isn't D&D, and...

To the best of my understanding, there is only one lore source that explicitly claims that necromancy exists as a school of arcane magic alone, and that can be found here.

I adore the Schools of Arcane Magic in-game books and I'm the first to recommend them to people looking into rolling a mage character, but one has to consider that they are written in-universe by in-universe scholars and should not be taken as an overarching authority on the subjects they discuss, especially on subjects that they know admittedly very little about (i.e. necromancy). 

The book itself, the game's only reference to these traditional schools of magic, makes no direct reference or even connotation that only mages are capable of study into the field. The only tie is how it's an archmage that wrote the book, and a former archmage that's the example.

Death Knights use the arcane, through rune-magic. Runes are just a way to get to Arcane power.

Spoiler:

...You've got me there. If those runes really are tapping into the ley-lines somehow, which are thrumming with arcane energy...

I don't know how I'd explain it.

Somehow, however, I doubt that a death knight's runeblade works like a runemaster's skin.

It's the other way around.

Spoiler:

I remind you that death knights are a base class, freely available for play, whereas necromancers...

Such was the basis of my implication.

But they don't use Shamanism to harness Warlock magic. They simply changed what they did.

Spoiler:

I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure necromancers are no more mages than warlocks are.

I will continue to stand by the Arcane vs Divine argument, because they work like a venn diagram.

Spoiler:

Sorry for strawmanning you like this, but...

...That's like me justifying my idea of magic categorized by energy type with how it resembles the Periodic Table of Elements, which I find snazzily organized.

Divine magic brings someone back to life/unlife fully.

Spoiler:

Why do you say that? What is your basis for believing this?

"Given Necromancy is but a specialization of Arcane, all Necromancers are Mages. If the race of choice doesn't have a mage available as a class, then Warlock will be the next best thing."

Spoiler:

...While I'm busily condemning things en masse as d20 holdovers, I will point out that wizard specializations were a Dungeons & Dragons mechanic that has a hard time fitting into WoW's presentation of magic...

...although the idea of forsaking one form of spellcasting in order to better devote yourself to another is certainly convenient for our variant system.

...

Spoiler:

I was just moving to pick apart Zarquon's statements with how he rooted himself in pre-Metzen material, buuut...

Rosencrat beat me to the punch, and with the revelation that Auchenai mobs have more to do with warlocks than anything else...

I do agree that the cause is lost for priestly founded necromancer.

Graven Ones are decanonized, Auchenai are no backing, Witch Doctors are waved off as the exception rather than the rule...

Wait. I have an idea.

...It occurs to me that Thel'zan the Duskbringer, a very loudmouthed lich, was originally a human priest.

I wonder if he counts as anything.

---

---

You do realize that Orc Pyremasters, a fundamental element to Orcish religion and cultural make-up, are able to raise the undead and speak to spirits, right?

Spoiler:

The pseudonecromancy of pyremasters was noted only in the d20, to my knowledge, which remains a discredited source.

Though we know shaman can speak with spirits of many varieties, I've never seen one animate a skeleton...

[Rosencrat]

You do realize that Orc Pyremasters, a fundamental element to Orcish religion and cultural make-up, are able to raise the undead and speak to spirits, right?

Because they worship ancestors.

And they would, as with the others, fall into the Spirit Priest variant.

[Bovel]

There are quite a few Troll Necromancers in WoW, as well as a few Loa that deal specifically in the dead and undeath.

Chances are that they are just put up as necros since the system or rather no system is adapted to fit the voodoo.

[LostStranger]

The questline involving Zalazane specifically denotes that he turned his back on the Loa with his use of necromancy.

Considering this, I strongly doubt that a troll necromancer would still count as a priest or shaman.

[CappnRob]

I think the point being made with necrolytes and pyremasters as necromancers is that you don't have to be a fancy-pants arcanist/mage/whatever to be a necromancer. There are cultural/religious ties that lead to necromancy. The WC1/2 stuff might be crusty and old, but it holds to canon without light of other references.

As for the Auchenai... yeah, their spell-sets are all warlock spells, but by PROFESSION they are holy men and priests, keepers of the dead. They are not warlocks, even though they use warlock spells. In eeeeither case, Draenei can't be warlocks as a class, so in perfect honesty neither priest NOR mage really fits them for an OOC class.

To further boot, as Lost as said, "arcane/divine" shadow is a holdover from the D20, which we often work hard to shooting down nowadays. By that extension, the shadow used by a priest is the very same as the shadow used by a necromancer, and is nothing special.

I think we worry too hard on the element of the OOC class. Necromancers really are a class onto their own, so is this all out of fear we'd have bad Necromancer RPers who would be using Greater Heal or summoning felguards because their OOC mechanics say so?




... AND ALSO TO NOTE WHILE KEL'THUZAD WAS AN ARCHMAGE HE DID SERVE THE CULT OF THE DAMNED.

... you know. It's a cult. Like a religion. With priests. And acolytes. Who raised the dead and worshipped the shadow.

Yeah IDK where I'm going with that either.

[LostStranger]

By that extension, the shadow used by a priest is the very same as the shadow used by a necromancer, and is nothing special.

A priest is not a necromancer, even if a priest can use shadow magic.

Much like how a mage is not a shaman and a warlock is not a death knight.

There are some very significant differences in how they do what they do, even if what they do can be sometimes similar, even if I do not believe the line of difference is "divine vs arcane".

Necromancers really are a class onto their own, so is this all out of fear we'd have bad Necromancer RPers who would be using Greater Heal or summoning felguards because their OOC mechanics say so?

...I will comment that warlocks are among the list of approved necromancer bases.