Priest-Necromancers?

[Rosencrat]

Words

I was typing a reply but Lost hit it pretty nicely on the head: While there are some holes in the lore that would allow one to wiggle a loose definition of Priest Necromancers into the picture, mechanics wise they would be worlds apart skill-wise from the magic-slinging Arcane Necromancers.

There is a reason, after all, that people haven't tried to make the argument that Priests can use all Frost spells because of Shadowfrost. While we allow a touch of multi-classing to bleed over here and there, we want the lines to remain as firm as possible.

Make an argument for a Soul Priest variant. That has much more traction than trying to push for ballooning an otherwise neatly defined class into a catch-all term that will cause confusion.

[CappnRob]

Since I am ok with warlock necros I will leave it at that.

But personally I think any OOC class would work that's a caster but whaaaateeeeever.

[muhaha8]

But personally I think any OOC class would work that's a caster but whaaaateeeeever.

I honestly disagree with this. I don't think faith-based classes should be allowed to OOC as a Necromancer. I don't see how faith would play into such an act. (Though I can imagine now a Priest standing over a corpse. "I BELIEVE YOU WILL BECOME UNDEAD. I BELIEVE YOU WILL BECOME UNDEAD.")

As for other casters (Druids and Shaman), I don't see the possibility there. Nature-based magics raising the dead is offputting to me, really. Can't put my finger on exactly why, but... (Also, I know Pyremasters, but that's different, IMO. They contact the spirits of the deceased through their bones, and raise them as allies in much the same way.)

EDIT: To expand, Necromancy came originally from Demons, so it makes sense that Warlocks could do it. It's an Arcane magic, so it makes sense that Mages can use it. Nature, as I said, confuses me still, considering it's all about healing and repairing. Faith... I think I covered that one.

[Edgar]

I agree completely with muhaha8.

[Dae]

But personally I think any OOC class would work that's a caster but whaaaateeeeever.

I honestly disagree with this. I don't think faith-based classes should be allowed to OOC as a Necromancer. I don't see how faith would play into such an act. (Though I can imagine now a Priest standing over a corpse. "I BELIEVE YOU WILL BECOME UNDEAD. I BELIEVE YOU WILL BECOME UNDEAD.")

As for other casters (Druids and Shaman), I don't see the possibility there. Nature-based magics raising the dead is offputting to me, really. Can't put my finger on exactly why, but... (Also, I know Pyremasters, but that's different, IMO. They contact the spirits of the deceased through their bones, and raise them as allies in much the same way.)

EDIT: To expand, Necromancy came originally from Demons, so it makes sense that Warlocks could do it. It's an Arcane magic, so it makes sense that Mages can use it. Nature, as I said, confuses me still, considering it's all about healing and repairing. Faith... I think I covered that one.

I think here he's referring to using playable caster classes to represent the necromancer class in-game, not that every caster ICly has their own sort of necromancy. And honestly, just in terms of what class people are using to represent their necromancer character really means little to me. Someone could be a warrior but RP as a Necromancer if they used an appropriate IC skillset in my mind, though their being a mage does suit them better visually.


ICly, at least, how does raising the dead work? We know it is done frequently with the Arcane, and the matter of soulpriests or whatever seem like an exceptional circumstance to me, somewhere along the lines of the Druids of the Flame. And I don't really think that should be playable.

As for Pyremasters... I wouldn't call their affinity with the dead Necromantic. In fact, I'd say calling them necromancers would likely be a bit blasphemous. Correct me if I'm wrong, as Orcs aren't exactly my forte, but pyremasters "call" on their ancestors like a shaman "calls" the elements- a power they borrow from willing supernatural forces.

Locks and mages should be able to be necromancers to me, though with the matter of shadow priests, they can prolly have some sway over ghouls and associate with necromancers, but not have the skillset to raise and control the dead as a full-blown, arcane-using necromancer.

[Delta]

I remain of the belief that there is a definite divide between Arcane and Divine.

In the beginning, there was no Arcane magic. The Titans happened upon primordial Azeroth, shaping and moulding it into the world it now exists as, and gifted it the Well of Eternity to breed diversity and life. Skipping ahead a little, the Kaldorei founded their civilisation on the shores of the Well of Eternity. Its affect on their race is evident when you bear in mind that they are derived from Trolls. From the Well, they learned Spellspeech, and how to weave Arcane spells. Arcane is called forth deliberately and knowingly. Arcane and its development is as accidental as medicine. Finding out how it works is part luck and part knowledge, and being a powerful Arcanist requires both in abundance.

Conversely, Divine magic is and always has been about finding your little bit of truth in a violent, chaotic world. It is the Gods' gift to mortal races. Similarly, it didn't exist before Titans shaped Azeroth - because there were no sentient creatures to wield it. But for as long as self-aware races have existed, so has religion, and with it Divine magic. In better words than mine, "Though the sources of divine power are varied, its use has one constant: faith. Effectively wielding divine power requires tremendous conviction; the dedication required to achieve such perfect faith is a lifelong pursuit. Unlike arcane spellcasters who believe that power exists to be taken, divine spellcasters must constantly affirm that they are worthy of their gifts. They must be certain that they are properly honoring their gods, philosophies, ancestors or convictions. Perfect faith requires intense training and constant testing, which continues throughout the practitioner's lifetime. Of the many tests that a practitioner must face, two of the most common are ordeals and trials of faith."

The distinction is made in the method by which they are made manifest.

Is there a difference between, for example, a Warlock and a Shadow Priest's Shadow? Yep. Self-assurance invokes one, while esoteric dark knowledge calls forth another. Yet, if you made Shadow tangible and laid the two kinds side-by-side, you wouldn't be able to notice a stark difference. In form, function and purpose, they overlap to the point where they are almost indistinguishable.

Their differences may be intangible, but they are there.

[CappnRob]

Well with priests it was moreso the social role of the class rather than the mechanical role.

Ignoring the basis of faith based magic, and just focusing on the social role of "priest", and how there are death priests, yeah.

But if the OOC class is determined not by their social role but by what most accurately represents their mechanical role, well there you go.

[Zarquon]

Et tu, Stranger?

All I have left now...

Spoiler:

...Rosencrat, thou art hath vanquished me. *Bows*

[LostStranger]

...and how there are death priests, yeah.

I'd given this some thought, and...

I'm fairly sure that if death priests were allowed to summon undead, Legion priests would start summoning demon, and my warlock interests would drown on its own frothing spittle.

[Zarquon]

Legion priests would start summoning demon

Spoiler:

*Perks up*

[Harmonic]

This stuff is getting so outright confusing and muddled, it really makes me want to steer clear of any sort of magic class or class variant just because it seems like there's so much to know/remember about magic. Sadly, it's harder for me to retain knowledge of stuff if it isn't outright apparent... and when we get into these large discussions about the semantics of shadow vs. holy, vs. this vs. that, while throwing some more of this in there...

Honestly, it just turns me completely off from playing casters as a whole. I'm so afraid of rolling something and having it worn down to a nub because of how muddled this junk gets. Plus, it's not as if it's easy for every to browse every aspect of these topics and say "gee, there's my answer right there."

Instead, everyone has different opinions it seems... and finding the few that actually provide proof with their argument is like picking a needle out of a haystack.



I really don't want to even touch the main subject of this post, because it's so intimidating to see. My concern is... why on Earth are we having these sort of "discussions" on a weekly basis?

[Roxas65]

Err, I have to agree with Rensin here, actually. We're roleplaying, the aim is entertainment but somehow people on here always makes it appear so -technical.- It's like figuring out the math behind Pokemon. What's the point? Sit back and catch pokemon.

[Zhaei]

why on Earth are we having these sort of "discussions" on a weekly basis?

Because some people enjoy discussing it? I can't see why you posted aside from telling us we're somehow bad for wanting to talk about the topic.

Also, there's no obligation to learn anything to play a caster, this thread is solely based on discussing whether Priests can use a form of necromancy.

[Roxas65]

But that's the point. Basically every post in threads like these starts with "I think" followed by an opinion and little to none of it can be taken as a fact. So either we get a community where everybody has a different opinion on how something works, making RP a complete cluster****, or we somehow decide on a single opinion, eventually making Coth a server based on fanon and theories. Isn't it just easier to say "has it been presented in lore? No, it hasn't, so let's not."

[Zhaei]

Er... that's what a discussion is. People give their opinions on things. There's no solid lore on Priest Necromancers, otherwise why would we be talking about it? We're discussing the possibilities, the small bits of lore that somewhat support it. There's nothing here from a GM or Admin that says "WE ARE TAKING THIS AS CONCRETE LORE NOW BECAUSE SO AND SO BELIEVES IT." We're just talking about the subject. It's fun. It has no effect on your RP at all, and now this thread has been derailed entirely.