Grakor Grumbles: Sexual RP Policy

[Harmonic]

Honestly, either way I'm fine with. Just that if we allow prostitution, we aren't too kid friendly and that should be known. And we should allow a lot more and not cater to trying to spare people's emotions or feelings on certain things.

I think it'd be hypocritical to allow this RP, but filter mature language and images. It's sort of like saying "Reading fifty shades of grey is FINE, but the movie goes tooooo far despite cutting most of the content out!"

[Reigen]

The debate is not on what you listed, Noble.

I will note this however. ERP is something that requires consent and it not something that a person can just drop into your RP. However, if escort or prostitution was allowed, that is something that could just be dropped in your RP without any sort of OOC consent at all. You can say no to ERP if someone asks you, you can avoid exposure to it because of the rules. While people might still roll a hooker under the current rules, they wouldn't take it to BB and flaunt it out of fear of getting reported. Allowing such characters would take away that safety net of not being exposed to adult themes unless you consent for it.

It's not about if the server is mature enough to handle it. It's about allowing people to avoid a certain theme unless they wish to be exposed to it.

[Nymus]

The debate is not on what you listed, Noble.

I will note this however. ERP is something that requires consent and it not something that a person can just drop into your RP. However, if escort or prostitution was allowed, that is something that could just be dropped in your RP without any sort of OOC consent at all. You can say no to ERP if someone asks you, you can avoid exposure to it because of the rules. While people might still roll a hooker under the current rules, they wouldn't take it to BB and flaunt it out of fear of getting reported. Allowing such characters would take away that safety net of not being exposed to adult themes unless you consent for it.

It's not about if the server is mature enough to handle it. It's about allowing people to avoid a certain theme unless they wish to be exposed to it.

We aren't necessarily forcing them to RP with them. Seeing a hooker in Booty Bay isn't the same as actively talking to them.

However, what you said is right, about the dropping into RP without OOC consent. It really depends on who is viewing the content. I suppose it isn't as simple as "hey guys, my character is an <insert sexual profession here>, is it okay if i rp with you?".

Of course, their profession wouldn't mean that ALL of their RP revolves around their profession. Otherwise they'd just be ERP characters. And there's no fun in that - no character development, no debilitating weaknesses, no arms ripped off by an orc.

[SachikoMaeda]

I'm sure the character would end up known at some point in time. It's the nature of the community. "Did you hear such and such is a prostitute?" They could choose to avoid the character if they didn't want to be exposed. Or they could decline any OOC offers or make it known OOCly they don't want to be exposed.

[Noble]

I doubt the attitude towards it would change even if it were allowed, escort girls don't blatantly sell sex and prostitutes usually don't either. I don't think anyone's saying; 'I want to be able to dress skimpily and ask random male characters if they..' I'll cut myself short there, and if stuff like that does happen, players that are uncomfortable are inevitably going to ask those two to take it somewhere else and more privately. The rules will still, hopefully have them obliged to do so.

To be honest, I don't see anyone going around, waving their 'I HUNGER FOR ERP' flag. Most of it's even started privately, before the uh, you know. The over-the-top 70's music. If players are exposed to any of this.. uh, by then the people involved are technically breaking a rule. By ERPing in public.

[Reigen]

Well, I don't mean when the hooker isn't being...well...a hooker. I more so mean say you're RPing in BB and a character comes up trying to get one of you or your friends to pay for their 'services'. That's what I mean by OOC consent. Not, when they don't mention their profession at all because they're not 'on the clock' so to speak.

[Rowgen]

@Reigen Or rather, 'on the dock'?

Seriously, though. There's nothing to stop people doing things in private, but the rules, as they stand, is that such shouldn't leak into the public. By slapping the 'prostitute' brand on a character, it becomes difficult to prevent that.

EDIT: In hindsight, what I mean isn't that the issue in this case is the IC interaction, but the OOC that comes out of it. Let's take Sachiko's example. If that happens, then that player is excluded from RP simply because they play their character. This is a two-way thing. I personally dislike the notion of permitting prostitution and such, simply because I see no benefit gained from giving players another reason to exclude each other - it doesn't even have to be the character only, it can be pulled into OOC and extended to excluding that player regardless of which character they're on.

[Wuvvums]

I still stand by the idea that the "tone" of the server would shift if we allowed these things. I think prostitution, along with other things I won't mention, are pretty "dark" and I would like at least the open or base-line level of rp to be in a more comfortable tone that is welcoming to everyone. We aren't a grimdark setting so even a prostitute "played well" would feel out of place for the kind of rp we have.

Basically I'm just saying this is just uncomfortable and you can't really pretend it's not there like with ERP if you allow prostitutes openly.

[Loxmardin]

Ramble-time.

I think that the rules as they are currently are perfectly fine. They are supposed to protect people in the public channels from the sorts of material that people RP out in private. I don't think we need to loosen up or further restrict our current policies on the matter since people, no matter what, will RP exactly the sort of things that they want to roleplay when they hit the private channels. As long as they don't do it out in the public where everyone can see it, I believe that it's perfectly fine. If rumours start spreading, that's a separate issue and it'll be dealt with in the best possible way.

... However, that doesn't mean word won't get out. People will talk about the things they experience in-characterly, sometimes in the public IC channels (because our policies are slightly more loose there when it comes to the sort of language you can use and the content that can show up). To me, this is no different than watching late-night television or watching the news, or even eavesdropping to the general gossip in a supermarket or restaurant. Some themes never should be discussed in public (namely; triggers) but the things we do speak of In-Characterly at times are often skirting the line of our PG-13 policy.

Then again, PG-13 is not necessarily on a Disney level. ... And the Disney movies, especially the old ones, contain some pretty heavy and dark themes. A lot of people show those movies to their children even though they might not necessarily be child-friendly. ... So, really, Disney's a poor example in this discussion due to all the heavy insinuations in the classic Disney titles.

When it comes to escort characters... I don't mind them. I think people are focusing way too much on the meaning of the word we traditionally use in Real Life. You could easily play an "escort" character with no sexual content in your roleplay whatsoever and without sending off any such signals. ... Just stop using the word "escort". Your character is, in a way, a "servant". Even if you're a temporary "servant". You may even be a "courtesan", or a "courtier". Or a "valet". None of these words need to go hand-in-hand with "prostitute" and I feel it's a bit risky to establish that sort of connection between them since that just poisons a perfectly innocent word and helps further teach people to connect them. Better to start making the difference, in my opinion.

That said; No, I don't like the idea of prostitute characters. If people want to ERP, they can. I don't and won't care about it as long as the rules are being followed (and it is true that many people on the server play characters who are already ERP-machines, so it's hardly necessary to throw "prostitutes" into the bunch).

/endramble

[Dae]

I've only skimmed the thread because I'm feeling bleurg big time right now, but I still think I should throw my two cents in.

First off, I should make my own sexual orientation clear, in that I don't have one. Nothing gets me excited in the pants. That being said, genuine asexuality is pretty rare and has its own personal caveats, and on CotH, I've generally stuck with heterosexuality, both for the sake of normalcy and to better understand the perspective of sexuals in general.
CotH is the first place in which I've had enough consistent RP with other peoples' characters for my characters' sexuality to be relevent in the first place, so it's really interesting for me to see how such matters come to be so.
In one particular instance in Northwind, while Flora was in a youthful, living body, she had a sexual encounter with a blood elf woman, which was... Strange for me OoCly, to say the least. In the same way I know any of my favorite characters would want anything, I knew that Flora just couldn't pass up on her quite possibly only chance at intercourse after the Plague, and with a beautiful, magical person, no less.
Except, I'm not into sexual activities at all. We agreed that it happened through OoC, but didn't actually roleplay through it because I felt quite awkward on the matter. Still, that experience made me understand where my personal "line" (not one that should necessarily be used to enforce general CotH rules, mind you )was:
Basically, I feel that a characters sexuality and orientation is a factor in any well-developed character as it is in real people. Even I have a sense of my ownsexuality in social context even though I don't have sexual urges. By no means do I think it should be a restricted topic for characters, as that would be an OoC source of repression in our characters.
What makes *me* uncomfortable, and where I draw my personal line in the issue, is when it feels like Roleplay turns from a collaborative story that can address mature themes at times to, in essence, pornography. I don't want to be developing my character, only to find out that someone's *insert euphemism here* to my character. No, I can't stop anyone; this is the Internet, after all. But I never want to be made aware of it if possible. Public erotic behavior that is clearly ICly in the vicinity of my character can get awkward, too, if it feels like someone's getting off to a voyeuristic fetish.

Generally, though, a safe rule of thumb for any sexual content is if I wouldn't want to say it in the presence of a class of Middle School-age children. If you'd hesitate at all, then be certain you know that everyone in earshot would be 100% cool with it.

[SachikoMaeda]

So we can kill other characters publicly but even the slightest inference of sex is frowned upon?

Perhaps I truly don't fit into the community's mindset.

[Harmonic]

So we can kill other characters publicly but even the slightest inference of sex is frowned upon?

Perhaps I truly don't fit into the community's mindset.

You tend to take things to the extreme. It's not about the inference of sex. With prostitution, there's no inference or suggestion---that's what a prostitute is for. It suggests that they are a paid worker for sex. This is something that overall, doesn't fit really with the community. Why? Because it's setting the precedence where sex no longer becomes a caveat, but a standard. This character's IC class would be hooker. Their job would be to have sex. This is something that's not only awkward for other people, but would be FORCED on them to deal with.

What we have now? It's already inferred. People can do what they want--- as long as it's private and not widely spoken of to a large degree. Why? It's taboo. It's socially unaccepted. It's exactly what being a hooker is in real life.

Edit: Also with death and murder we adopted a policy a lot like this. It's best if it's left in a grey area while in public. X kills Y, with no great detail. When it starts to get into the gory details, laden with blood and guts and graphic depictions, it's ushered to party or someplace more private for those that wish to watch/hear. Same with Sex, eRP, and prostitution. Can you be a prostitute right now? I'm sure there are some, but they keep it secret. Do we need to allow that in profiles? Not really, it's pretty up-front about sexual intentions there.

Edit 2: Remember too, there's a lot of reservation when someone rolls a character SOLELY for the sake of killing.

[SachikoMaeda]

Just having this topic alone is breaking the rules.

That aside, I find the whole "sex is bad", "prostitutes are evil", ect type outlooks to be silly. We can curse, do drugs, fight, and kill in character in public channels, but soliciting someone is a horrid act. I don't see the logic in it.

[Harmonic]

Just having this topic alone is breaking the rules.

That aside, I find the whole "sex is bad", "prostitutes are evil", ect type outlooks to be silly. We can curse, do drugs, fight, and kill in character in public channels, but soliciting someone is a horrid act. I don't see the logic in it.

Again, you seem to be taking things to the extreme. Within my edits, I've said, some things are -not- allowable as you suggest they are. Graphic depictions have been asked to be moved to party. Same with -anything- sexual.

A prostitute suggests it's purely sexual. All the time? No, but in the same way a mass-murderer isn't always killing.

[Valicor]

It's because sexual intentions in roleplay bring things to a much more intimate level. Also, the needed maturity and intelligence. Any 10-year-old can know HOW TO KILL SOMEONE just by owning a simple CoD disk. Yet, not every 10-year-old may not know the components of a sexual encounter. So, that being said, I'd like to think that any innocence should be kept, and the intimate levels should be toned down. "Killing" somebody isn't quite as involving as "bedding" somebody.

On the terms of prostitutes, I do feel they should be allowed, just not as a full-focus of a character. Yes, they may be able to be so as a....what say, off-hand hobby? And as said before, just so long as they're not publicly ranting about their goods, and not just blurting themselves into every RP, they should be fine. Discreet, subtle words and terms should be appropriate, and I feel any ERP should be kept in a private party or in whispers.

I don't see ERP as a bad thing, necessarily. People want and enjoy unique things in RP, and nothing says you shouldn't be able to enjoy that area of RP as well. It's just.. polite to keep it out of the public, aside from being against the rules.

I just thought I'd add my two cents, and help give a different view of opinion on the whole intimacy, privacy, and maturity thing is. And to all who disagree, sad to be rude of any sorts, but that's the rules, and them's the breaks. You're fully free to embrace ERP every day. Just privately. (My opinion.)