The Light and How to Swing It...

[Theik]

Lady Liadrin never begged A'dal for forgiveness because they lost their power, but because she realized what they did was wrong. The Naaru are beings of holy energy and they were able to siphon holy magic from it, gaining an alternative source of getting it. This doesn't mean that to channel holy energy, you have to get it from a Naaru. Believing in the holy light has already proven to be just as effective.

Anyway, what about Arthas, he was under the tutelage of Uther, one of the Silver Hand´s founders and he still did a few things that I am pretty sure would be considered illegal, seeing Jaina´s and Uther´s reactions to it I am thinking that I´m right.

Arthas however did things that could still be justified.

He massacred an entire city, yes? But in his eyes, he was doing the right thing. He was attempting to contain the plague and give the citizens a clean death.
He burned down his own ships and blamed the trolls, but he did it because he didn't want to abandon the fight yet.


In the end his motivation was mostly revenge on Mal'ganis, but he was still convinced himself he was doing the right thing. Pillaging Elwynn is going to be pretty much impossible to justify. What kind of story could you really come up with to justify rape and murder as "serving the helpless"? Even the most demented paladin would start doubting how well meant his carnage is, especially if the excuse can't be much better than "I'm making certain Hogger doesn't get them."

[Nostra]

As he thought he was doing good, he was still of a Good alignment.

This, according to me applies to everyone when it comes to this, and when there´s actually quiet a few instances of special circumstance organizations/characters going about I don´t see much wrong in it.

[rentreality]

And yet, being of a Good alignment is only one half of the special circumstances that allow a player-played Paladin to use his power. The other one is Lawfulness, as is seen with their requirement to respect legitimate authority. Rape and murder are not Lawful actions.

[Mikain]

Personally I think there is enough lore evidence to show that the 'law' in lawful is personal law. Though most of the time personal law coincides with state law, it may deviate.

[Piken]

Not to sound -crazy- here, but "murder" could taken multiple ways, no? Even if some ways may the the psychotic way of taking it. Like the extreme "I had to do that because they were evil" or something. Of course the person thinks they were doing good(or at least is trying to use it as an excuse). But yeah, that's been talked about enough.

The whole rape thing, I'm 99.99% positive there's no real way to make that "lawful." Even in the mind of a crazy person. IMO, that's just.. trying to please yourself, either psychologically or physically. I see no way a Paladin can pull that off if confronted about it. But of course, some of the things in lore kinda can't be used as a backing for an idea because.. look at it. Kind of special circumstances. Like Arthas and.. all of the other wonderful examples used.

But that's just my.. <counts words> Lotsa cents. And forgive me if that wasn't very coherent.. Yeah.

[Tales23]

Rape is not a good thing and if I'm not mistaken aren't the Scarlets Lawful Evil? But yes Rape is evil though your character may not think he's evil his alignment is evil.

[h3avenzrezurect]

Isaac does not see it as Physiological or mentally pleasing, he believes that 'Spiritual Cleansing' is to save those who have sinned, from eternal damnation. Only when their spirit has been cleansed, may they have a new start, and be worth to the Light and it's cause.

[Theik]

Isaac does not see it as Physiological or mentally pleasing, he believes that 'Spiritual Cleansing' is to save those who have sinned, from eternal damnation. Only when their spirit has been cleansed, may they have a new start, and be worth to the Light and it's cause.

Except the church of the holy light doesn't believe in eternal damnation. References of heaven and hell were all retconned out after the early warcraft, there's no such thing as a god who judges people or an heaven where good souls go. It is why Varian took the loss of his best friend a lot harder than Saurfang did with the loss of his son.

Unlike Orcs, humans do not generally seem to believe in an afterlife. Which makes whoever the hell Isaac is (Stealing names from the bible, classic) completely out of character for a paladin. They believe in the three virtues and what the Holy Light teaches. Not in a fancy afterlife you can only get into if the Light thinks you're a cool person. In fact, "the Light" as an entity doesn't judge people, it's an ideal.

You're basing things way too much on the Christian Church, you should read up on the Holy Light.

[Krent]

In my eyes, it is perfectly plausible for a Paladin to commit the acts of murder and even rape while still maintaining his ability to wield the holy light. For one thing, the whole ideologies behind what is "good" and what is "evil" are simple matters of perspective. While we are borrowing the alignment system from Dungeons 'n Dragons which Gygax specifically states "Good and Evil are not matters of perspective in this universe. They are underlying forces in the world that are very rigidly defined....", the Warcraft Universe (as far as my knowledge) does not follow this code.

Because of this, human psychology allows for some very interesting perspectives on the world. It is within human nature to find a justification for one's actions, no matter how inhumane, twisted, or abhorrent they may be. To play devil's advocate with the concept of a rapin', murderin', twsited Paladin who's still able to wield the light, let's construct a persona.

When one is filled with zeal, logic and sociological perspective may be swept under the rug. That which does not fit within the personal construction of justice within the mind might be subject to vigilante action. As in, if a Paladin were to have a large amount of disdain for every aspect of normal civilian life, and this disdain were to grow so great that he felt he needed to go above the government's laws to bring forth his own definition of justice, he will. And so long as he sternly believes that his form of justice based on his own personal morals will be for the greater good, I believe the light would still come to serve him.

"The ends justify the means", to steal a quote from that nice Machiavelli guy.

Now, murder? I don't think I have to type up any sort of possibility in which breaking the law to commit a murder might be justified in a do-gooder's eyes. Just watch any super hero movie nowadays and you'll see plenty of vigilante justice going down. It's what's "in" right now.

Now, rape? That's a whole different matter, but again, it's a psychological mess. First off: Rape is not for sexual pleasure. The psychology behind the act of rape is usually (not always, but mostly) the ultimate form of dominance one being exerts over another. A rapist will rape someone for the sheer rush of being able to cause the closest form of anguish, dominance, and pain unto their victim - being able to use their body for whatever whim they so desire, at the physical and mental expense of them.

This aspect of rape is what makes it so appealing to the rapist. It is not the sexual aspect of the act, it's the feeling of domination. It's one of the ultimate forms of sadism and I believe I don't need to tell anyone here how horrendous the act is, or how much devastation it brings to other beings. The other underlying reason for a rapist's existence is because the individual themselves was a victim of sexual abuse during their psychological development and they can only find comfort for their sub-conscious sufferings by bringing it to others.

Now, of course I'm not going to say that the two above reasons stated out are the only reasons, as there are plenty of cases of twisted individuals who are "unique". But that is the "norm" in the definitions of abnormal psychology.

Now, understanding this. A Paladin might find a woman's (or a man's!) sexual promiscuity horrible. Or he might find her to be a prostitute and completely immoral. Seeing this form of sexuality so offensive, he might choose to bestow upon her a punishment fitting of her "crime". Sexualized violence.

Within his own mind, according to his own morals, he could believe himself to be in the right. After all, it's her own fault, right? Dressing in those skirts. Flirting with those men. Spreading decadence, temptation, and immorality where ever she goes. The Paladin could see this as righteous retribution.

Would he be in the right? No, of course not! I'd consider him a twisted evil bastard who needs to spend the rest of his days rotting in the stockades. And that'd only be on my most merciful of moods.

But, that's what happens. It's sad but that argument is often used as a defense on most rape convictions. The "She was askin' for it" excuse that has ties to the whole mess of male domination in society and the notions of gender roles and the limitations of women to the domestic sphere and....I could go on and on.

But, ah. Long story short; As long as the Paladin truly believes he's in the right, or that his "Ends justify the means", the light will continue to bend to his will. It all has to do with the individual's own code of morals and their inner-workings of psychology. ESPECIALLY if there is no set doctrine of beliefs set forth by the church.

[h3avenzrezurect]

Thank-you for that long speech. That was amazing, in a way. To add on to, Isaac's zealous perspective is. . . Horrifying. Isaac does not believe in god, but the Light, to be an entity. Being within the confines of the Light, he believes that the Light speaks to him! Telling him that if someone's soul is not filled with the Light's faith truly. . . Then their soul and spirit shall fall into the Nether. Or some dark substitute for hell. Also, I believe 'hell' is actually a word in Warcraft.

[rentreality]

But, ah. Long story short; As long as the Paladin truly believes he's in the right, or that his "Ends justify the means", the light will continue to bend to his will. It all has to do with the individual's own code of morals and their inner-workings of psychology. ESPECIALLY if there is no set doctrine of beliefs set forth by the church.

Paladin Code of Conduct (1):
"Additionally, the paladin's code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use their help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Teachings of the Holy Light (2):
"The first virtue taught is respect. While the Holy Light teaches that awareness of the self and the universe is a goal, one must also see the connection between others and the universe. Destroying other's happiness and severing other's connections with the universe is not serving the world's well being, and therefore not your own."
"After the first two concepts are mastered, the student can take on the final virtue: compassion. The connection between the self and the universe is strong, but it still is only one connection. If a follower of the Light serves another to increase his happiness, his bond with the universe grows stronger. The happiness he receives by helping someone also strengthens himself and the universe, and he is able to affect the universe even more. "

These prove that a Paladin's belief in his correctness is not the only factor.

Personally I think there is enough lore evidence to show that the 'law' in lawful is personal law. Though most of the time personal law coincides with state law, it may deviate.

Paladin Code of Conduct (1):
"Additionally, the paladin's code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use their help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Your statement is in direct contradiction to the established lore of the Paladin code of conduct that allows him to continue to use the Light.

[Mikain]

And the paragraph right below it.

Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just. A paladin can be evil, but as long as they believe their cause to be just, the Light will continue to serve them.

[rentreality]

Does anyone have a copy of the Player's handbook for the Warcraft RPG? Lore sources are contradicting each other all over the place, and I would like to see what an official document states. It surprises me that there's this much controversy: Paladins are Lawful Good holy warriors, always should be Lawful Good holy warriors, and have forever been Lawful Good holy warriors, following the guide of their impeccable moral code and the laws of the country.

[Mikain]

The rpg books state the Paladin Code of Conduct that you posted. However, the evidence that has been presented after the rpg books supports the other. I think a compromise is in order.

[Theik]

A paladin who ceases to be good, who willfully commits
an evil act or who grossly violates the code of conduct
loses all paladin spells and abilities (but not weapon,
armor and shield profi ciencies). She may not progress any
farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and
advancement potential if she atones for her violations
(see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

One could reason that Arthas and the Scarlet Crusade don't willingly commit evil acts. Arthas's hands were tied and he didn't really have much of a choice, it was either give the citizens of Stratholme a clean death or wait for Mal'ganis to claim them all for the scourge and then still fight them. Likewise, the Scarlet Crusade's actions are evil, but they're not really commited because they -want- to do so.

If they could, they'd settle down and have nice lives, but they're surrounded by the walking dead on all sides. They're working for "the greater good" by trying to contain the scourge outbreak.