The Light and How to Swing It...

[rentreality]

Hi there, all!

I have a question about Paladins and the powers over the Light granted to them by the Naaru. To put it into perspective, let's offer up a hypothetical situation: imagine, for a moment, that a Human paladin, while in Elwynn Forest, attempted to rape, kill, or otherwise damage another member of the Alliance in the name of "cleansing their soul of sin."

Would they still have their powers? According to WoWwiki's "Paladin Code of Conduct," I would be inclined to say that they would lose them. Would this be accurate? Allow me to explain my reasoning: while the rape, murder, or the like might not necessarily be a bad thing in the Paladin's view, in the overall view of the world, I would say most people would not condone it. At the same time, it is not respecting two sources of legitimate authority: the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, and the rules of the Church of the Holy Light.

EDIT: The reason I think the Scarlet Crusade can get away with evil acts while keeping their powers is because not only is the clause about them believing that it is good invoked, but also because their legitimate authority is from the Scarlet Crusade, as opposed to another organization that might take a dim view of their actions.

Your two cents would be appreciated.

[Yunnemaria]

I say that whether or not the paladin believes it is right, as says that the Paladin can use the Light even if evil, as long as the paladin believes he is correct, the Paladin would lose his powers.

In the end, it boils down to the lawfulness of a paladin. And each paladin must maintain a modicum of lawfulness in any aspect of their job.

[h3avenzrezurect]

Paladins don't always have to work within good or neutral organizations as seen by the Scarlet Crusade and others — however, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just. A paladin can be evil (as illustrated by Renault Mograine), but as long as they believe their cause to be just, the Light will continue to serve them. <--- [Quote from Wowwiki under the Codes of Conduct]

The Light will always continue to serve them, whether it be lawful or not, as long as he believes himself/herself to be right and just.

[rentreality]

The part you underlined irks me -- the WoWwiki article seems to almost contradict itself, which is why I wanted some clarification on a situation like the one I mentioned from the greater community.

The part I see as a potential contradiction is the case of:

Additionally, the paladin's code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use their help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Even if a Paladin believes his actions are good, they may still be violating legitimate authority, committing a dishonorable action, or even threatening or harming innocent individuals. It seems that for a Paladin to actually be a soldier of the Light, they would need to have these aspects in addition to the belief that their work is good in order to operate properly.

EDIT: My view on the subject is only reinforced by the Three Virtues, as laid out in the article on the Church of the Holy Light.

[Vrahn]

Ultimately a paladin must be of a Lawful alignment. There is no such thing as a chaotic paladin. But as for good/neutral/evil, well, that is variable depending on the paladin.

[Einhander]

Rape is dishonourable, unfortunately. As is maiming. Especially in human territories.

Doing something dishonourable like stabbing someone in the back, humiliating them and similar would break the Paladin's Code of Conduct. And from what I know, the Scarlet Monastary does not go around raping people. It's barbaric and unethical. Paladins are not barbarians.

[h3avenzrezurect]

I fail to see rape in cleansing and purging one's soul of evil and sin. As some call Isaac on it.

[Einhander]

Was actually quoting from the first post in which it says "rape".

[Theik]

While the Scarlet Crusade gets away with evil acts, it's because they're so incredibly paranoid that they are convinced they are right. Anybody who walks the Eastern Plaguelands could be an undead, and the fact that you're not in the Scarlet Crusade only makes it more likely you're undead.

Yes, a scarlet crusader might torture an innocent person and that'd certainly make them lose their holy powers, IF they were aware of the fact that the person was innocent before they started torturing. Torture is a fairly normal way of extracting information in the warcraft universe, every court has a torturer of some sort to extract information out of people. Going around and torturing random people however isn't the same as torturing somebody if you already know they're innocent.


Because of demonic influences, the Scarlet Crusaders are themselves absolutely certain that anybody they encounter in the plaguelands is an undead, or a spy for the Cult of the Damned. To them any mortal they happen to kill is an acceptable loss in the long run because they believe they're saving the plaguelands from the undead plague.

It is a lot harder to fit rape, murder and other things around Elwynn Forest into any way into an acceptable thing. The Church of the Holy Light does not think you can redeem souls. Being a member of the church does not make your soul any purer than an actual member, the church exists purely to help those in need and to spread the wisdom and the virtues of the holy light. It'll take a hell of a lot of twisting to ever turn those values into "If I kill you, your soul is saved".

[Hinbane]

My take on the issue is that regardless of whether the Paladin thinks / knows what they are doing is right or wrong, if the Light ultimately deems it wrong it will forsake them.

If it's a subjective interpretation of the Light, then I would expect to see a much wider use of the Light, for many people, both bad and good, in Azeroth feel their cause is just. If it's an objective interpretation, I feel it fits much better.

Now, in terms of the Scarlets - I think that the Light continues to listen to the Scarlet Crusade because it is ultimately fighting against the Scourge, which the Light probably deems the greatest affront aside for the Burning Legion. I also believe that their is a side to the Light that is ruthless, as is evidenced further by Retribution centered Paladins.

My thoughts, anyway.

EDIT - In retrospect, I realized that the Scarlet Crusade is being manipulated BY the Legion, which is probably the greatest offense against the Light. I'm not sure what to make of the issue...

[h3avenzrezurect]

However, they do have to believe they are working for good organizations or have faith that their cause is good and just.

"If I kill you, your soul is saved".

If they believe and have faith in those words. . . And tell themselves it's good and just, they can do this.

[Theik]

Code:

Now, in terms of the Scarlets - I think that the Light continues to listen to the Scarlet Crusade because it is ultimately fighting against the Scourge, which the Light probably deems the greatest affront aside for the Burning Legion. I also believe that their is a side to the Light that is ruthless, as is evidenced further by Retribution centered Paladins.

The Light isn't an entity which thinks stuff. It's a bunch of guidelines, principles and believes, not something which decides if what you're doing is right or wrong.

Code:

If they believe and have faith in those words. . . And tell themselves it's good and just, they can do this.

The thing is, it goes against everything the holy light teaches. The Scarlet Crusade "is protecting the innocent from the menace of the Scourge", which is perfectly okay by what they've been taught. Their methods are just completely inhumane, but in their eyes, it's a good cause. Kill a few to save many, in the long term.

But there are no believes that a soul has to be purified or anything of that kind. The Church of the Holy Light does not have the concept of "sin" that needs to be redeemed for a soul to be accepted into "heaven", those are Christian church concepts. The Church of the Holy Light doesn't believe those things.

[Hinbane]

The Light isn't an entity which thinks stuff. It's a bunch of guidelines, principles and believes, not something which decides if what you're doing is right or wrong.

"a bunch of guidelines, principles and believes,"

Sounds like something that determines what I'm doing to be right or wrong.

[h3avenzrezurect]

Just as how the Old Testament was derived off of by other religions, thou shalt the Legendary Zealots shalt do to thou Holy Light.

Isaac has turned it into an Orthodox Faith. A Faith in which there are unworthy beings which practice it.[Apikorsim] Purge the non-believers, others who do not practice our ways, purge those who make a mockery of it, purge those who do not follow it to what we believe the extent of it should be followed. Purge those who try to enslave it's powers to their own personal bidding.

Thal shalt be called, the Legendary Zealots. Because that's what they are, crazy. . . Near insane. . . Zealots to the Light.

The Zealots purge the evil from these lands, from the bottom of their hearts, they believe this method is good and just.

And maybe cleanse some fellow souls which require cleansing. *cough* xD

[Yunnemaria]

Thing is, whether or not new teaching or whatever, it doesn't justify cleansing the soul of a fellow member of the same side. What the Scarlet... people (I forgot, Crusaders?) did was to use the light to protect people from the scourge.

It doesn't justify burning Elwynn or killing or raping people on the same team or whatever. That is, having a new order of the Church. o_o