Conquest of the Horde

Hello friends,


This post will likely make me no friends.

So yeah, this has all been swimming around in my head today since I started making mention of it in some of the other threads.

Profiles! Don't we all just love those?



Perhaps not the most cherished of things on CotH. Profiles can be tedious. Especially depending on how a profile is checked one can feel that your concept is being picked apart. Like you're putting effort into a scarcely read wall of text that'll inhabit the wiki. In some cases you might feel that people just don't understand how you view your own concept, and will be unfairly or unwisely judging you.

I've been there. I think we've all had one of those feelings at one point or another. It's important to remember though that there -is- a reason for profiles. They're not just part of some arbitrary system to keep people from playing their nobles or from getting their levels. Profiles are around because it prevents us from stumbling into people who chummed around with Illidan and Kael'thas, have some demonic possession or are the secret princess of Stormwind.

And you're likely looking at those examples with a bit of humor! Except that one of them is a real example that the GM team has had to deal with in the past.

People often tell me that I show a lack of trust in the playerbase when I cite stuff like this. I've heard it in the past when asked why we don't allow players free roam of the phased world, or when asked why they cannot play certain character concepts. I get the question a lot in these situations; do you not trust us?

Well... No. No, I don't. It's not possible for me to trust the entire playerbase-- And if you're going to post beneath about how that's bad, then log on right now. Type /who, or look in the users online box to the left of this post. Would you have a trust fight to the death with every single person on that list? Would you tell all of those people possibly exploitable knowledge about your character? As a GM I would dare to say that caution is doubled. We're not just dealing with our characters being interfered with, but the server as a whole.

So we can't trust everyone to roll characters within lore. Even GMs make characters that are denied-- I've made a total of four so far. All of them concepts I was -hyped- about. Concepts I really, truly felt had a place in lore and on this server. Concepts I had ideas for, and felt would be a cool addition to what was already present on Conquest of the Horde. And while I'm speaking about these denied characters, allow me to point something out-- these were not denied because I was not trusted. One of these denied profiles came a few weeks ago, even. The concepts simply did not fit. Judge the concept, not the player. I've had to say this before, and I expect I will need to repeat it in the future.

But, back on topic. I've digressed, as I'm prone to do. In short, profiles are important. But unfortunately they've been losing their worth. Previously most characters were profiled for gear-- perhaps it felt like a chore to some, but it was a necessary procedure for all involved. Silver Tokens were the big motivator then, since there wasn't an .addrp command.

But then that was added. And man, was that a bad idea.

In my opinion.

An opinion which is, likely, constrained to those on the GM team.


Here's my argument about the .addrp items. First off, they eliminated the need for Silver Tokens-- which upfront may not have been a tragedy. After all, it made the process of gearing a character easier. And I even heard some people referring to it as freeing up some workload from the GM team, but personally I never felt that Silver Tokens were much of an issue. They took about a minute for us to do, and if people had the right codes the process was quite smooth.

Second, the .addrp commands completely trashed the use of IC currency. Again, let me give you a personal example as to how this applies. Prior to .addrp I wanted to make a merchant character. The plan was to load up on a full outfit of armor and a few slots of random items I thought looked snazzy, and then go about and sell these in areas where the rp was. This wasn't an auction, but items being sold at a flat rate, with changing stock per day/week/etc. This, I figured, would give a good incentive into using the IC currency due to how comparably one would have to farm a large sum of ooc gold to get a single piece of this stuff. And it would be RP as well! Others could level blacksmiths or tailors so that they could provide services as well.

Yeah, that didn't work out. .addrp basically nullifies any point of a merchant. Imagine you're walking by and see me selling a snazzy looking cloak. You look in your inventory, checking your IC gold-- you can buy it, but you're going to be low on cash if you do so. And hey, you might need that later-- There might be an auction. But the .addrp item command is there...

...

.lookup item Snazzy-Cloak

.addrp item Snazzy-Cloak

Whelp, sure was nice doing business with you.

Perhaps not everyone would do this, but it's enough to invalidate the use of currency and merchants. It may be a bit weird to say, but I honestly think that .addrp has really detracted from RP more than it has benefited it. Odds are others feel differently.


And that's my rant over the .addrp command. Back to profiles. So, we're at profiles and they've now lost utility player-side due to the loss of Silver Tokens. At the very least the leveling aspect of things is still intact, so--




Well, that fixed that. This is where we're at now, and I've honestly always been rather discontent with it. Since then I've noticed far less use of profiles, and for a rather fair reason. I'll openly admit-- If it were not for my viewing of how bad unchecked characters can go from the GM-side of things, I'd likely be fine with going without profiles. But I feel that we're kinda losing more and more importance behind the profiling system, almost to the point where if it slipped any further we might as well just have a single profile approved per person for gruntship, and then toss it past there.

So... how do we fix that? I'm not certain, really. I'm not sure it's something we can fix, at least not without great upheaval. The solution is pretty obvious-- just throw away the tokens or .addrp. But I'm not sure we're keen to see how that would go over. -I- am not keen to, I know. And I want the .addrp commands gone. So I'm not certain there is a proper solution.

In short, I'm not sure what to say you should take from this ramble. Just a sense of how I feel about these topics, so you know my reasoning when I act as I do concerning them. This is partly for that, and partly just a rant on my part. I think in the end it is better that people know my stance on this stuff, rather than assume I'm speaking as I do for other reasons.


-Rigley

I'm your friend.

That's something. I hope.

All of this. All of it. Even as much as I love making sets with .addrp I can very much see the effect on profiles it has. It might be something that can only be rescinded during another server wipe.

I'm your friend too. <3

I agree with your Rig. I feel this way about this...

Either make profiles mandatory, or not. Right now it's right in between, and it feels like it -could- be neglected, while still being highly suggested.

If we feel that we don't need 'em (An idea I'm -not- opposed to, mostly because profiles are a pain) and get rid of approving them, then people should be able to request level 80, which fits in with the .add rp command.

If not, then make SOMETHING about profiles mandatory... like, make people "hurt" when they don't put 'em up. Armor restrictions/weapon restrictions were a great way to do this, as item levels make it so a lot of the better looking gear can only be obtained by those with a high enough level.

People have all said... gold is just a bonus and not something NEEDED, so, the rewards although nice... don't really force people to create the profile like in the past.

Up front, I'd like to state that I feel most comfortable operating within a system of constraints. I don't know if it's related to my personality or disorder, but I'd rather have fairly clearly defined boundaries in which to operate. Otherwise, I feel like everything has become a Charlie Foxtrot and I start feeling very flustered. I want profiles to remain.

In a way, character profiles serve as a crutch for me. They aid me in developing characters and they ensure that the characters with whom my character interact follow very simple, very basic guidelines that have been determined by the community. Yes, I say the community as a whole because I persist in saying that the player-base has definite impact on the server.

While I agree that the introduction of the.addrp command has further undermined the need to create profiles, I think that it was a positive change. I'm looking at this from hindsight, but I do recall quite a bit of complaining from both sides of the fence regarding Silver Tokens. Players complained that a staff member wasn't immediately available or willing to service their tickets to acquire oh-so-important gear; staff members complained about being glorified gear bots and feeling obligated to perform an admittedly tedious task. Of course, this is a broad generalization, but I'm really certain that it occurred. If I spend some time going through my old harddrive, I bet that I could come up with example screenshots of those types of conversations.

Rather than remove the command, I think that it would be best to come up with a greater reason to post profiles. I know of quite a few players that are content to run around at level fifty or lower, many because the character concepts might not be approved if they went through the profiling process. That undermines my sense of roleplaying security when I interact with other people and saddens me.

Piroska Wrote:know of quite a few players that are content to run around at level fifty or lower, many because the character concepts might not be approved if they went through the profiling process.

This above many other points is my greatest concern when it comes to the devaluing of profiles, aye.

That's the hard part of this all. BUT, I think the best solution would be to still have level restrictions on armor.

You can get it whenever you want. But if you need to be over level 50 to wear it... then better have an approved profile.

(04-20-2012, 02:14 PM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]

Piroska Wrote:know of quite a few players that are content to run around at level fifty or lower, many because the character concepts might not be approved if they went through the profiling process.

This above many other points is my greatest concern when it comes to the devaluing of profiles, aye.

There are simpler ways of finding a remedy to this issue than trying to roll back the clock. It's just a GM brainstorming session away.

I miss the Silver Token system, but let's be honest Rig. It was annoying. No one ever did serious Merchant RP anyway. When I think of Silver Tokens, my brain instantly realizes I'm looking through nostalgia goggles.

And those goggles distort your view something fierce.

I find that profiles can be tedious to do and seem like they aren't worth having around because of this reason.. though! I agree with Rigley in the sense that they are required so that people don't make silly characters. (As the examples he's provided clearly states how silly they can be..)
And having to deal with that drama as a GM could be quite annoying. Not sure how many times this happens or how frequently it does, but the use of profiles might eliminate that. With the ability to obtain Bronze Tokens, this causes people to stop there and be content with having a lvl 50 and not worry about making a profile. "Too much trouble, going to stick like this for awhile until I want to make one in the future."

Now with these people that have lvl 50s, they could pull silly character concepts too. Because they're not hindered with a profile, so they can go behind the scenes and do something that isn't deemed 'fit', like saying you're secretly a princess. And people may not be reporting it.. so it continues on. And that's where trusting the player base comes in. If they only roleplay with a posse of their friends and doing illegal roleplay ideas and activities, well, who would know?
But I guess I'm thinking too much into this. I'd hope people weren't doing that. But this is more of a reason why profiles are important even though they can be a pain to do.

This allows people to have more indepth character development ideas and really brings the character together instead of just having some chick elf with the name Bubba, mage, and she likes flowers. It explains your character more deeply and results in more detailed roleplay (based on past life) and IC reactions down the road. I like profiles! Though, others may not.

About the .addrp commands.. I agree that these ruin merchant characters because I tried to have one in the past. It didn't work out too well for me.. I went to go on selling trinkets instead of clothing because you could simply add the required items to your outfit. Occasionally I get asked on Lendri though to tailor some dresses or other things, but you know, still problematic for other people. Having the command is a loaaadd off your back though, and not have to deal with the Auction House to get items or spend hundreds of gold (and hours of dailies ) to get it.
Some people like spending time to get their stuff though, they think it's more fun and something to work for. But at the same time, there are those who would rather just add the items and not have to deal with the grueling tasks to get the items and jump right into the roleplay.

I like the .addrp command, it enables me to not have to work on getting gear and so I can get to the roleplaying. Again, people might prefer the challenging way of acquiring gear. They still can if they really wanted to, going to instances and stuff. But the .addrp command is always there to use as an option.

Just my two cents, sorry it's a book, heh.

I could probably tolerate level restrictions on gear. I'm loathe to take away anything from the community -- mostly because I think that the better solution would be to reward players than retroactively constrain their existing power -- but it could be a viable solution. However, keep in mind that this kind of a solution may not be as far-reaching as you would hope. You can still develop visually appealing sets without ever having to acquire gear from the Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King expansions.

I like threads like this that invite feedback from the community. I think that it allows for people outside of the staff to mull over an issue and provide a different perspective.

I just figured we could outright lock a character if we felt it didn't fit within the lore.

Maybe if the addrpitems had a level restriction of 80 it would make incentive for people to profile. I think the other perks as well, like the tattoos and such could further that, while the regular clothes vendors could remain untouched.

Just throwing some thoughts out there. o:

(04-20-2012, 02:27 PM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]I just figured we could outright lock a character if we felt it didn't fit within the lore.

I'd be very surprised if you were forbidden from doing this.

...There is no effective way of eliminating players that dodge the profile process, as far as I can see, without making the server inaccessible to new players and Bohemian bums like me.

I've thought out all the possibilities I could, (and deleted all writing of them because I was taking too long and this debate was moving fast and amwhagwklagwakngkz--) and I've seen many of them in action over the years...

Ultimately, the best thing the staff can do is keep a watchful eye out and proactively police the publicly indecent.

I agree that profiles should reward a player more.

Could there be a way to restrict .addrp to level 80's only?

Edit: Wuvs beat me to it!

That's also a great idea, Wuvvums. However, I don't know if there's a way to "Trigger" only allowing level 80's to get a command, if you know what I mean. That's more of a "rights" thing within the core, I'd think.